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Post by mrholmes on Oct 13, 2020 13:07:20 GMT -6
For me the problem with singing is you are very vulnerable, everybody can hear if I have a bad day. That's also the problem with finding a good vocal teacher, my impression is, a lot of them forgot about what makes singing so difficult when you try to get better. I also ask myself why many of them do not teach breath support first, because my impression without good breathing everything else fails.
For those who can't afford a teacher or do not want to spend the money for this right now.
Jane wrote a book for the Kindle and supports this with Videos and sound files. Its maybe not perfect, but not bad too, special because the book is about 10 bucks and you get a year access to the videos and sound files.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 14, 2020 4:22:13 GMT -6
This is awesome and a good explanation of how to find support! “1) Place your hand on your abdomen and cough. Do you notice that your abs cave in? 2) Move your hand to your belt area and cough. Did you feel the abs poke out? If not, you may want to try slightly lower. The "kick out" sensation is the key.
Once you’ve found the “kick out” spot, repeat the cough several times to get used to the experience. The experience of a lower muscle pushing outward during a cough is what Alex calls appoggio. During singing, he says, that these lower muscles contract while the other abdominal muscles remain soft. That means that the voice user will want to learn to isolate the "kick out" spot from the others in time. The cough is a direct way to feel the "kick out" sensation, but, since it also engages the other abdominal muscles, it is just a beginning stage. The combination of the "kick out" muscle engaging while the other abdominal muscles remain soft allows for more even air pressure, because the abdominal muscles apply less pressure on the ribs while still operating in their function of helping the ribs expand. He also said that there is no point in his sung line when he releases the contraction of that "kick out" muscle. During the inhale, it relaxes with all of the other abdominal muscles, and then contracts again, as the others stay lax.”There are some definite differences to how I do it, but the whole kick out movement is the key.
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Post by drbill on Oct 14, 2020 8:59:01 GMT -6
Learn to play drums. Particularly funky or syncopated songs. Conversely, you could program too if you don’t autocorrect all over the place. Play in a band. Do something musically with other musicians
IMO, pitch is pretty easy to deal with if the person is decent and has a good reason to be in the studio.
Groove and singing in the pocket? Not so easily fixed.
PS - singers are notorious for this, but it applies to all musicians. Singers seem to be the ones with the least amount of ensemble experience though.....
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Post by M57 on Oct 14, 2020 10:14:25 GMT -6
I frequently encounter notes that sound better when they're a few cents off. In those cases, I like to drag the note around until it "feels" right and leave it wherever that happens to be. I just about never drag a note to perfect intonation. For starters, I always drag with averted eyes. If l look at what I did and it turns out that I bought a note to dead nuts in tune, I'll usually move it back a few cents from whence it came. If I sang it 15 cents sharp, there was a reason. I might bump it down 5 or 10 cents, but that's it. It's all about feeling right. The exception might be when I sing a note perfectly in tune. Then I pat myself on the back and leave it there ;P
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 14, 2020 13:00:31 GMT -6
PS - singers are notorious for this, but it applies to all musicians. Singers seem to be the ones with the least amount of ensemble experience though..... As a singer, I can wholeheartedly confirm we are the absolute worst. Right next to guitar players, which I also happen to be.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 14, 2020 18:09:13 GMT -6
What do you call an Elf who sings? A Wrapper! Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 14, 2020 18:13:04 GMT -6
This is awesome and a good explanation of how to find support! “1) Place your hand on your abdomen and cough. Do you notice that your abs cave in? 2) Move your hand to your belt area and cough. Did you feel the abs poke out? If not, you may want to try slightly lower. The "kick out" sensation is the key.
Once you’ve found the “kick out” spot, repeat the cough several times to get used to the experience. The experience of a lower muscle pushing outward during a cough is what Alex calls appoggio. During singing, he says, that these lower muscles contract while the other abdominal muscles remain soft. That means that the voice user will want to learn to isolate the "kick out" spot from the others in time. The cough is a direct way to feel the "kick out" sensation, but, since it also engages the other abdominal muscles, it is just a beginning stage. The combination of the "kick out" muscle engaging while the other abdominal muscles remain soft allows for more even air pressure, because the abdominal muscles apply less pressure on the ribs while still operating in their function of helping the ribs expand. He also said that there is no point in his sung line when he releases the contraction of that "kick out" muscle. During the inhale, it relaxes with all of the other abdominal muscles, and then contracts again, as the others stay lax.”There are some definite differences to how I do it, but the whole kick out movement is the key.
The article helped me to understand that we speak about a different group of mussels. Watching the video of your old mentor again that Arpeggio does not mean support.... it's leaning with the in breath airflow down.
When I heard support I had the picture of contracting my belly mussels, which leads to some wobbly airflow.
This leaves the question open why a teacher is not working with the picture to breathe down? Makes the experience in practicing much easier.
Breathe / Lean into your bladder would be a good picture too ... at least with my body the poking is more effortlessly with this in my mind.
Without even knowing it in and out there are surprises to me:
1. I get more control over the airflow.
2. I get the subjective feel that I breathe in deeper and more air.
3. Practicing feels more effortless even though I still do mistakes.
It's the same with guitar students. If I use the right analogy practicing technique is easier for the Student. In singing, it surprises me how many opinions exist how to "support" right. I just worked on it for a few days...so I am by no means good at it and it already helps.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 20, 2020 10:22:50 GMT -6
For pitch, I'm lucky to have 8 semesters of ear training, so while I wouldn't call myself a good singer, I can reference pitches for singers pretty easily. One ear phone off helps when headphones are involved. Making the vocals A LOT louder in the singers headphones than what would be considered normal in a mix helps. For timing I always ask the singer "what part of the drum beat do you focus on to get your timing?" (kick? snare? HH?), and turn that track up. I took a conducting course in college and LOVED it, so I spent a lot more time than my classmates practicing. I never thought in a million years that would help me in this stuff, but it comes in handy. I always record vocalists in the same room as me, so I can spin my chair and help with visual cues, etc. I think in both cases you have to make sure the singer is comfortable and confident. Sometimes I'll say "hang on one sec" and I'll slide a syllable over without making any kind of deal out of it so that when they hear it, they are like "damn, that's tight" and then they're stoked and feeling good and usually then they are killing it. If it's just not happening, I say screw it and try again fresh the next day. The last thing I want is for them to get frustrated. Then nothing works. Good post. Wonder what ran this guy off...
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Post by Ward on Oct 20, 2020 10:59:36 GMT -6
Good post. Wonder what ran this guy off... Some people run themselves off. for various reasons... I mean, not everybody can be Jesse around here.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 20, 2020 12:11:48 GMT -6
I've never heard anybody sing as well with headphones as they can without! You can hear part of the problem by singing while holding your hands over your ears. It's compounded by the comb-filter effect caused at certain latencies.
The best vocal phrasing tip I ever heard was "Vowels are notes. Consonants are noise. Put the vowels on the beat!" Singers often tune to the bass.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 20, 2020 12:48:00 GMT -6
The best vocal phrasing tip I ever heard was "Vowels are notes. Consonants are noise. Put the vowels on the beat!" Singers often tune to the bass. This has definitely been my experience. Great advice here.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 20, 2020 18:02:31 GMT -6
That's why I always tune up, with Thurl Ravenscroft. Now THAT'S a Bass, who's "Greeeaaat". The late/great Bassist Max Bennett, one of the L.A. Wrecking Crew... Told me about that vocal tip too, including better honing in on the "spirit" of the song. Chris P.S. Pretty unusual that a 6'5" Bass singer, made it to 91. Max had a smaller frame, and lived till 90.
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Post by jazzcrisis on Oct 22, 2020 13:03:22 GMT -6
A good trick for singers who may not have a lot of studio experience and just have a hard time performing at 100%, getting the feel right, etc. is to have them stand on a small stool or step ladder. Something slightly precarious, so that their subconscious focus is not falling off the stool. I've found that occasionally, this can be distracting enough to get them to forget the usual performance anxiety.
Forcing a smile while singing will usually result in brighter-sounding vocals!
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Post by chessparov on Oct 22, 2020 21:18:51 GMT -6
What a great set up, for my non-PC Irish jokes... (Half Celtic myself/Half Basque BTW) Chris
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Post by yotonic on Oct 22, 2020 23:06:58 GMT -6
Singing is like boxing. If you can't punch you better be real about the fight, and people will connect with you. (Anthony Kiedis RHCP)
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Post by Ward on Oct 23, 2020 6:09:54 GMT -6
Keeping the microphone hanging and above the head so the singer has to look up to sing will also result in slightly raising the pitch and brightness. This can be very useful.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 23, 2020 11:21:29 GMT -6
You probably deserve a raise too! Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 23, 2020 13:25:24 GMT -6
A good trick for singers who may not have a lot of studio experience and just have a hard time performing at 100%, getting the feel right, etc. is to have them stand on a small stool or step ladder. Something slightly precarious, so that their subconscious focus is not falling off the stool. I've found that occasionally, this can be distracting enough to get them to forget the usual performance anxiety.
Forcing a smile while singing will usually result in brighter-sounding vocals!
First lesson I was ever taught by my main voice teacher was to smile while you sing. It brings out clarity in the singing. I can't tell you how many times I've had a singer in the studio who was struggling with something on the top of their range, and I'd tell them to try it again, but smile this time..... nails it.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 23, 2020 14:52:21 GMT -6
The “pulse” of the beat occurs with the vowel, not the consonant. Have them anticipate the consonants and land the vowels on the beats.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 16:30:08 GMT -6
A good trick for singers who may not have a lot of studio experience and just have a hard time performing at 100%, getting the feel right, etc. is to have them stand on a small stool or step ladder. Something slightly precarious, so that their subconscious focus is not falling off the stool. I've found that occasionally, this can be distracting enough to get them to forget the usual performance anxiety.
Forcing a smile while singing will usually result in brighter-sounding vocals!
First lesson I was ever taught by my main voice teacher was to smile while you sing. It brings out clarity in the singing. I can't tell you how many times I've had a singer in the studio who was struggling with something on the top of their range, and I'd tell them to try it again, but smile this time..... nails it. When directing voice over for animations, the "smile when you say the line" trick has always worked great. This is the first time I've heard it applied to singing, so that is some really cool advice. Thanks!
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Post by M57 on Oct 23, 2020 16:44:01 GMT -6
Expanding on what Vincent R. said about smiling when you sing, smiling as you inhale promotes good technique. Try it. Raise your cheek bones as high as you can and inhale. You should feel cool air on the roof of your mouth, and if you did it right you should have been able to completely fill your lungs in about half a second. Smiling raises the soft palate, which not not only lets you get a LOT of air quickly and quietly, but also sets up the shape of your mouth and face to sing with a strong focused sound that cuts. The idea is to open up the airway going both ways. Development of the technique involves practicing switching from inhaling to singing with little in the way of physical change in the airway, and it's more difficult than you might think because it's very natural for the glottis to want to close at the end of the inhalation. Think of how a low-handicapped golfer is able to be able to envision and execute their swing in one smooth motion ..as opposed to a backswing followed by a forward swing. My teacher used the phrase, "Sing on the breath." Be careful about teaching it for instant use in the studio. It's not uncommon for a singer who's not use to getting all that air in so quickly and effortlessly to get a bit dizzy from hyperventilating the first time they try it. And of course the last thing you need is a singer contemplating a new technique during a session. It's probably advisable to just recommend smiling "while" they sing like Vincent suggested. The good news is that most singers who sang in their high school and college choirs have been told many many times to smile while they sing .. if only because it looks good!
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Post by chessparov on Oct 23, 2020 19:09:30 GMT -6
Except Mahler. Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 24, 2020 6:36:31 GMT -6
Expanding on what Vincent R. said about smiling when you sing, smiling as you inhale promotes good technique. Try it. Raise your cheek bones as high as you can and inhale. You should feel cool air on the roof of your mouth, and if you did it right you should have been able to completely fill your lungs in a second. Smiling raises the soft palate, which not not only lets you get a LOT of air quickly and quietly, but also sets you up to sing with a strong focused sound that cuts. The idea is to open up the airway going both ways. Development of the technique involves practicing switching from inhaling to singing with little in the way of physical change in the airway, and it's more difficult than you might think because it's very natural for the glottis to want to close at the end of the inhalation. Think of how a low-handicapped golfer is able to be able to envision and execute their swing in one smooth motion ..as opposed to a backswing followed by a forward swing. My teacher used the phrase, "Sing on the breath." Be careful about teaching it for instant use in the studio. It's not uncommon for a singer who's not use to getting all that air in so quickly and effortlessly to get a bit dizzy from hyperventilating the first time they try it. And of course the last thing you need is a singer contemplating a new technique during a session. It's probably advisable to just recommend smiling "while" they sing like Vincent suggested. The good news is that most singers who sang in their high school and college choirs have been told many many times to smile while they sing .. if only because it looks good! I need to find time to make a video on this stuff.
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Post by drbill on Oct 24, 2020 10:29:19 GMT -6
Trying to learn Talkbox right now. Vowel filtered lines are pretty easy. Words....not so much.... Kind the polar opposite of singing in the "air / support" side of things. Essentially, you have to completely shut down the air flow to the chords, and just use the synth as the air flow, and your mouth to make the words "speak". Harder than ****. One of the hardest things I've ever had to learn musically. Anyone got any good techniques on it?
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 17, 2020 12:08:24 GMT -6
I make a new experience better diction helps to breathe better... I have no idea why, but it's true... @vincent?
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