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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 11, 2020 14:42:50 GMT -6
What are some of your favorite tricks to help lock in pitch/timing when recording vocals?
I love Melodyne and have no shame about it, but it's a lot of tedious work, especially when dealing with dozens of layered harmonies/backgrounds. I always prefer to use it sparingly. Obviously, that's not always possible for every song.
Some things that have occasionally been useful for me while recording:
- Depending on whether I'm sharp or flat, shifting the instrumental mix up/down a few cents - Programming the vocal melody with a synth and using it as a guide - Nudging the instrumental mix around a few samples if I'm rushing/lagging
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 11, 2020 21:05:07 GMT -6
I like to spend enough time with whatever I’m about to record and get it in my system. Work on it till it gets to a level of comfort where I know I can get through it. Note the trouble spots, drill them.
Recording with a guide is very helpful. When I’m doing session work I will often ask for one. I find it helps me get the song done faster. I had an artist I was recording who was really pitchy, In fact his EP was the reason I purchased melodyne. Anyway, he was a student of my voice teacher’s who was a professional model and had some people really interested in his work, however he was super inconsistent and very pitchy. The inconsistency in his takes made it very hard to comp things together. Finally after maybe twenty takes I stopped and did a guide vocal for him with the talk back mic. I choose specific phrases based on his previous takes and did a one take quick scratch. Once he had a voice in his ear he pummeled right through it.
I know it’s a pain and it can be expensive, but the best thing is to learn a little singing technique. There are a couple of things that can lend themselves to any style of singing and knowing them can help you figure out what you’re doing wrong when you can’t seem to nail something, or even help a client out when they struggle with something during a session.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 11, 2020 22:15:42 GMT -6
I like to spend enough time with whatever I’m about to record and get it in my system. Work on it till it gets to a level of comfort where I know I can get through it. Note the trouble spots, drill them. Recording with a guide is very helpful. When I’m doing session work I will often ask for one. I find it helps me get the song done faster. I had an artist I was recording who was really pitchy, In fact his EP was the reason I purchased melodyne. Anyway, he was a student of my voice teacher’s who was a professional model and had some people really interested in his work, however he was super inconsistent and very pitchy. The inconsistency in his takes made it very hard to comp things together. Finally after maybe twenty takes I stopped and did a guide vocal for him with the talk back mic. I choose specific phrases based on his previous takes and did a one take quick scratch. Once he had a voice in his ear he pummeled right through it. I know it’s a pain and it can be expensive, but the best thing is to learn a little singing technique. There are a couple of things that can lend themselves to any style of singing and knowing them can help you figure out what you’re doing wrong when you can’t seem to nail something, or even help a client out when they struggle with something during a session. Lots of great info here. Especially love the bit about being comfortable with the song. It’s amazing how much better my performances are when I’ve had months to rehearse every tiny detail. Ironically, it’s the times where I try to simultaneously record the song while learning it that I end up spending hours in Melodyne.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 12, 2020 1:20:53 GMT -6
This should go without saying, but a great headphone mix can make all the difference sometimes.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 12, 2020 1:31:24 GMT -6
I like to spend enough time with whatever I’m about to record and get it in my system. Work on it till it gets to a level of comfort where I know I can get through it. Note the trouble spots, drill them. Recording with a guide is very helpful. When I’m doing session work I will often ask for one. I find it helps me get the song done faster. I had an artist I was recording who was really pitchy, In fact his EP was the reason I purchased melodyne. Anyway, he was a student of my voice teacher’s who was a professional model and had some people really interested in his work, however he was super inconsistent and very pitchy. The inconsistency in his takes made it very hard to comp things together. Finally after maybe twenty takes I stopped and did a guide vocal for him with the talk back mic. I choose specific phrases based on his previous takes and did a one take quick scratch. Once he had a voice in his ear he pummeled right through it. I know it’s a pain and it can be expensive, but the best thing is to learn a little singing technique. There are a couple of things that can lend themselves to any style of singing and knowing them can help you figure out what you’re doing wrong when you can’t seem to nail something, or even help a client out when they struggle with something during a session. Cool advise. How straight can a singer sing? Do myself some straight tone practice and wonder if it's in the end not part of the nature of the vocal cords' taht the tone will never be 100% straight and accurate...
This should go without saying, but a great headphone mix can make all the difference sometimes.
Yesss that's why I love RME Totalmix I can have up to 15 different submixes....
I add microphone placement too:
For my own voice I experienced that I sing better with a little proximity effect...
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 5:09:07 GMT -6
This should go without saying, but a great headphone mix can make all the difference sometimes. Yep, this also makes a huge difference, and is pretty much the main reason why I keep my Apollo. Being able to monitor through super hard compression in real time really improves my performances. Admittedly, I could probably improve my setup a little... I have Sonarworks + Audio Hijack across all of my system output, and it makes things a little funky latency-wise. Would love a pair of cans that sound good enough to skip the SW while recording, but for now, I can't stand my 7506s without correction.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 12, 2020 5:43:54 GMT -6
This should go without saying, but a great headphone mix can make all the difference sometimes. Worth saying again... a big issue I had here for a while. It’s funny that so many people talk about how they love their Apollo, because of head phone mixing while tracking. I have never been able to dial in things here with my Apollo until recently with a headphone amp. The headphone amps aren’t loud enough and seems to have a different volume for what’s tracking than what’s playing in the DAW. I can’t use the UAD plugs while tracking, because I hear phase issueS which mess me up, and I hear myself even worse. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. Lol. Right now I do ok. I much prefer working humblecomposer’s on pro tools HD. Cool advise. How straight can a singer sing? Do myself some straight tone practice and wonder if it's in the end not part of the nature of the vocal cords' taht the tone will never be 100% straight and accurate... Straight tone or vibrato shouldn’t matter. If you place things correctly and give it a little support your singing will be more accurate. Both styles have different issues, but both have similar solutions. Personally I love on a lot of songs to do the “Broadway thing” and hit the note and hold it straight tone and then let the vibrato in at the end.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 6:25:41 GMT -6
Worth saying again... a big issue I had here for a while. It’s funny that so many people talk about how they love their Apollo, because of head phone mixing while tracking. I have never been able to dial in things here with my Apollo until recently with a headphone amp. The headphone amps aren’t loud enough and seems to have a different volume for what’s tracking than what’s playing in the DAW. I can’t use the UAD plugs while tracking, because I hear phase issueS which mess me up, and I hear myself even worse. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. Lol. Right now I do ok. I much prefer working humblecomposer ’s on pro tools HD. Getting levels right with the Apollo is kind of wacky, and there can definitely be discrepancies between how loud things sound in the headphones vs. how loud they're printing in the DAW. I just ignore it at this point and make a headphone mix that's fun to listen to while recording, and then adjust my vocal mix later. It took me a long time to land on settings that just work, and I literally leave them parked there now. If you're hearing phase issues, you might be extra sensitive to latency. It's not well known, but there are some UAD plugins that do introduce latency in Console. Or you might have an aux channel send enabled or multiple outputs routed to your headphones.
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Post by Ward on Oct 12, 2020 7:29:58 GMT -6
Barring practice and good singing techniques? Yes, it's going to be a lot of hard work, still even today. Without making it robotic sounding, of course. JMHO You're an experienced knowledgable AE, tkaitkai , and I like your attitude of "I don't know it all, I could always learn more". Mine too!!
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Post by teejay on Oct 12, 2020 8:14:48 GMT -6
Vincent said: "Personally I love on a lot of songs to do the “Broadway thing” and hit the note and hold it straight tone and then let the vibrato in at the end." This is a wonderful way to go on the right song. Takes practice to determine exactly when to kick into vibrato on each song. And I concur on learning the song fully. Once it is second nature and you no longer have to worry about lyrics or timing, you then have the freedom to enhance it with some feeling and inflection. That's when it becomes "yours", and your own style comes out. Applies to live performance as well. (Not that any of us are doing live performance these days, LOL!)
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 8:31:37 GMT -6
Thanks Ward! Always looking for something new to learn. Thankfully, in pro audio, there's no dearth of problems to solve. But yeah, good singing is always the best starting place. I'd love to get to a point where I don't have to do any editing whatsoever, but I work mostly on modern rock/pop/indie, so I've probably condemned myself to a lifetime of Melodyne.
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Post by teejay on Oct 12, 2020 10:09:26 GMT -6
I'd love to get to a point where I don't have to do any editing whatsoever, but I work mostly on modern rock/pop/indie, so I've probably condemned myself to a lifetime of Melodyne. So you're confirming what I've thought for some time. Modern rock/pop/indie recording does not require actual singing abilities, just correction software. Live performance usually tells the tale.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 10:33:14 GMT -6
I mean, you definitely still have to be able to sing. I can make a garbage take sound in tune & time-aligned, but I can't make it sound like a great performance. The more errant a note or phrase is, the more lifeless it's going to sound when corrected. You still want to deliver as best of a performance as you can muster.
I think it has less to do with vocal ability and more to do with the insane demands that are placed upon modern pop artists, as well as the nature of current pop productions (i.e. songs that have 200+ tracks with 100 of them being vocal layers). It was a different story back when you had major pop acts with a $10 million recording budget and 3 years to make an album, thus giving you time/money to fine tune every last detail of a performance.
Another important consideration that's often lost in this discussion is that people have been pitch correcting vocals for far longer than AT/Melodyne have existed. This was way before my time, but I've read lots about people using Eventide Harmonizers and even the varispeed control on tape machines to shift notes into place. I don't envy the people that had to do that.
All that said, I think it's best to remember that perfectly-tuned vocals are just one type of sound, and many people happen to like it. It's OK if it's not your thing.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 12, 2020 10:38:11 GMT -6
I was listening to "Ruby Tuesday" a few days ago, and it's truly remarkable how few phrases are actually sung on pitch. But it's a great song that I love listening to. Those were different days...
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 11:01:36 GMT -6
I was listening to "Ruby Tuesday" a few days ago, and it's truly remarkable how few phrases are actually sung on pitch. But it's a great song that I love listening to. Those were different days... Man, what a great song and a beautiful recording. Another factor with older records is that they used real instruments that were tuned by ear. Imperfections galore, but in the best way possible. Provided the players are good, it can be very musical when you have instruments that are ever-so-slightly off combined with a vocalist that's slightly off. It just gels together in a really sweet way. However, when you have a bunch of immaculately quantized/tuned VIs serving as the bed of your song, if you try and lay down an out of tune vocal, it's going to sound out of place, even if you're only a few cents off. In that case, tuning is the more musical way to go, IMO. Anyway, I'm rambling here. It all just depends on what you're doing and what you like to hear.
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Post by Ward on Oct 12, 2020 11:12:26 GMT -6
I was listening to "Ruby Tuesday" a few days ago, and it's truly remarkable how few phrases are actually sung on pitch. But it's a great song that I love listening to. Those were different days... Funny indeed!! Even with some of the greatest singers of the past 100 years, pitch was often implied as much as it was sung dead-on key! Doo-wop and Motown really raised the bar!
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 12, 2020 11:16:01 GMT -6
I had a client who was pretty amateur when it came to recording but had a very good voice, great sense of melody, great lyricist etc. When recording he was always off pitch, just couldn't nail it. But when practicing a take acapella, he would nail it every time. It took a long time till I figured that he just couldn't get used to hearing himself in headphones. Eventually I ended up just setting him up in the control room, singing into a mic along to the music coming right off the monitors. Bleed be damned. He did great. That whole process took weeks for me to figure out, but it was pretty eye opening when I did.
Another case study: A client I'm currently working with (I've done like 5 albums with in the past) sings ways better sitting down in a chair. I always set him up in the control room, using cans, sitting right next to me. Something about sitting in a chair forces him to have better posture and control his diaphragm better. And the direct interaction that comes with him sitting right there allows us to easily comp his takes in real time and generally results in a much more creative process, where we can spend the time experimenting with inflection and style rather than pitch and timing.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 12, 2020 11:21:56 GMT -6
I was listening to "Ruby Tuesday" a few days ago, and it's truly remarkable how few phrases are actually sung on pitch. But it's a great song that I love listening to. Those were different days... Man, what a great song and a beautiful recording. Another factor with older records is that they used real instruments that were tuned by ear. Imperfections galore, but in the best way possible. Provided the players are good, it can be very musical when you have instruments that are ever-so-slightly off combined with a vocalist that's slightly off. It just gels together in a really sweet way. However, when you have a bunch of immaculately quantized/tuned VIs serving as the bed of your song, if you try and lay down an out of tune vocal, it's going to sound out of place, even if you're only a few cents off. In that case, tuning is the more musical way to go, IMO. Anyway, I'm rambling here. It all just depends on what you're doing and what you like to hear. I use melodyne quite a lot. One thing I've learned is that relative pitch is way more important that exact/perfect pitch. It's funny how you can have an entire vocal passage that is just a hair flat/sharp, but sounds pretty good and very musical. But then you pitch correct one single word and now everything around it sounds off pitch... leading you to pitch correct the next word, and the next, and the next etc etc.
Because of that I've learned to not rely on the how a part "looks" on the melodyne graph.
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Post by tkaitkai on Oct 12, 2020 11:32:56 GMT -6
Man, what a great song and a beautiful recording. Another factor with older records is that they used real instruments that were tuned by ear. Imperfections galore, but in the best way possible. Provided the players are good, it can be very musical when you have instruments that are ever-so-slightly off combined with a vocalist that's slightly off. It just gels together in a really sweet way. However, when you have a bunch of immaculately quantized/tuned VIs serving as the bed of your song, if you try and lay down an out of tune vocal, it's going to sound out of place, even if you're only a few cents off. In that case, tuning is the more musical way to go, IMO. Anyway, I'm rambling here. It all just depends on what you're doing and what you like to hear. I use melodyne quite a lot. One thing I've learned is that relative pitch is way more important that exact/perfect pitch. It's funny how you can have an entire vocal passage that is just a hair flat/sharp, but sounds pretty good and very musical. But then you pitch correct one single word and now everything around it sounds off pitch... leading you to pitch correct the next word, and the next, and the next etc etc.
Because of that I've learned to not rely on the how a part "looks" on the melodyne graph.
This is a great point. I frequently encounter notes that sound better when they're a few cents off. In those cases, I like to drag the note around until it "feels" right and leave it wherever that happens to be.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 12, 2020 11:33:32 GMT -6
I had a client who was pretty amateur when it came to recording but had a very good voice, great sense of melody, great lyricist etc. When recording he was always off pitch, just couldn't nail it. But when practicing a take acapella, he would nail it every time. It took a long time till I figured that he just couldn't get used to hearing himself in headphones. Eventually I ended up just setting him up in the control room, singing into a mic along to the music coming right off the monitors. Bleed be damned. He did great. That whole process took weeks for me to figure out, but it was pretty eye opening when I did. Another case study: A client I'm currently working with (I've done like 5 albums with in the past) sings ways better sitting down in a chair. I always set him up in the control room, using cans, sitting right next to me. Something about sitting in a chair forces him to have better posture and control his diaphragm better. And the direct interaction that comes with him sitting right there allows us to easily comp his takes in real time and generally results in a much more creative process, where we can spend the time experimenting with inflection and style rather than pitch and timing. This is a great point. A lot of people don't sing with headphones. Another option is to do just some stage monitors. Tony Bennet records this way with two wedges in front of him and the whole rhythm section in the same room. Won't do it any other way. Some funny reactions from artists working with him on the Duet's albums who had never done that and ended up absolutely loving it.
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Post by Ward on Oct 13, 2020 5:06:39 GMT -6
SNIP (but all of your post is great!) Because of that I've learned to not rely on the how a part "looks" on the melodyne graph.
Isn't that the truth? We have to rely more on feel and groove and less on mathematical perfection. Otherwise everything will start sounding robotic. Some of the biggest sellers in the music business are over-processed way past the point of even sounding human. One fellow producer tells me everything has to be autotuned/melodyned now because everyone assumes it's being done and what they hear has already been fixed up. What a dystopia.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 13, 2020 7:15:52 GMT -6
Vincent R. Thought about it again. The advice to support more was 100% useless by my first vocal coach. A teacher should explain how to support more. Your advice on RGO with the Videos have been super helpful and you are across the ocean.
This is a link my new teacher gave me a week ago, was a big help to get an understanding for good breath support. I reread it today because you mentioned better support again. www.voicescienceworks.org/appoggio.html
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Post by Ward on Oct 13, 2020 8:05:51 GMT -6
Vincent R. Thought about it again. The advice to support more was 100% useless by my first vocal coach. A teacher should explain how to support more. Your advice on RGO with the Videos have been super helpful and you are across the ocean.
This is a link my new teacher gave me a week ago, was a big help to get an understanding for good breath support. I reread it today because you mentioned better support again. www.voicescienceworks.org/appoggio.html That's awesome! Some of us struggle with breathing issues, and everything helps with singing.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 13, 2020 8:46:41 GMT -6
Vincent R. Thought about it again. The advice to support more was 100% useless by my first vocal coach. A teacher should explain how to support more. Your advice on RGO with the Videos have been super helpful and you are across the ocean.
This is a link my new teacher gave me a week ago, was a big help to get an understanding for good breath support. I reread it today because you mentioned better support again. www.voicescienceworks.org/appoggio.html Cool. I'll check it out. I need to make a video on support... and some basic technique. Anyone know how to stop time so I can get some stuff done. lol.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2020 9:29:53 GMT -6
For pitch, I'm lucky to have 8 semesters of ear training, so while I wouldn't call myself a good singer, I can reference pitches for singers pretty easily. One ear phone off helps when headphones are involved. Making the vocals A LOT louder in the singers headphones than what would be considered normal in a mix helps.
For timing I always ask the singer "what part of the drum beat do you focus on to get your timing?" (kick? snare? HH?), and turn that track up. I took a conducting course in college and LOVED it, so I spent a lot more time than my classmates practicing. I never thought in a million years that would help me in this stuff, but it comes in handy. I always record vocalists in the same room as me, so I can spin my chair and help with visual cues, etc.
I think in both cases you have to make sure the singer is comfortable and confident. Sometimes I'll say "hang on one sec" and I'll slide a syllable over without making any kind of deal out of it so that when they hear it, they are like "damn, that's tight" and then they're stoked and feeling good and usually then they are killing it. If it's just not happening, I say screw it and try again fresh the next day. The last thing I want is for them to get frustrated. Then nothing works.
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