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Post by plainofjars on Sept 29, 2020 15:37:56 GMT -6
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Post by peterhess on Sept 29, 2020 17:55:49 GMT -6
My cloudlifter is permanently attached to my Shure 535 omni dynamics. I dislike it on my 4038, there’s shine missing in the high mids. And to be honest I’ve never needed the gain. My Lolas run hot anyhow, my tube Eisens have a high gain setting at the top, my AML 1081s don’t top out... it’s certainly helping that the Coles is most often on brass instrument duty, where the output is generally high. Though recently used a pair of Fatheads on a clarinet trio, and hmm, didn’t need the gain either and the spl was probably half that of trumpet or trombone. On dynamics, I get it, though. Tell me what I’m missing, with these lifter guys on ribbons, please!
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Post by chessparov on Sept 29, 2020 18:31:47 GMT -6
I'd be tempted to add a Hairball, to the Mogaine to avoid... Comb-Over Filtering. (Drummer hit me with a rum shot) Chris
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Post by chessparov on Sept 29, 2020 18:35:49 GMT -6
Mogaines rock my world. They make my ribbons sound better, and the SM7B too. I’ve tested gain matching with and without, it’s not just the volume increase. Ward is busily scribbling SM7 notes now.. Chris
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Post by brenta on Sept 29, 2020 18:55:06 GMT -6
I won a Royer dBooster but I haven’t tried it yet. I assume it’s the same phantom powered amp that turns a 121 into a 122 but that’s just a guess. When I try it I’ll report back.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 29, 2020 21:14:26 GMT -6
What you get for buying Behringer. Thanks pop. You're welcome, sonny.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 29, 2020 21:16:03 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Sept 30, 2020 6:10:18 GMT -6
Mogaines rock my world. They make my ribbons sound better, and the SM7B too. I’ve tested gain matching with and without, it’s not just the volume increase. Ward is busily scribbling SM7 notes now.. Chris Oh, you got jokes? LOL Nothing can perform a miracle on an SM7. It is what it is, a fine cool trendy microphone for lumber-sexuals. It's also great for guide vocals when tracking a band, due to it's very limited pickup range. All this talk of boosting gain . . . y'all know an AMS-Neve 1073 provides up to 80db of microphone gain, right?
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Post by forgotteng on Oct 1, 2020 19:29:06 GMT -6
Been using a double cloudlifter but the Mogain sounds tempting.
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Post by stratboy on Oct 1, 2020 20:00:00 GMT -6
I’ve used a Cathedral Pipes Durham for a while now. My SM7B sounds better with than without it. The AEA R-84 likes it, too. ZenPro recently came out with their booster circuit packaged in an XLR mic cable. An incredibly clever idea, IMO. I liked the concept, so I bought one, but I haven’t had a chance to try it out yet. I’ll let you know how it compares to the Durham. One thing to keep in mind (which I learned since I switched to a portable rig) is that a desktop interface, even one of high quality, can use a little help with certain mics, compared to a standalone mic pre. So a gain booster can be a handy tool to keep in the knapsack.
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Post by markfouxman on Oct 2, 2020 2:14:30 GMT -6
A good preamp with a line amp or compressor makeup gain after it. Front end devices are bullshit mostly. You will always have more noise from a front end device. Something like the Mogaine which has ‘free’ transformer gain are the only possible exception from a technical/fact/laws-of-nature standpoint. They have their place (at the mic to drive long cable runs to the preamp) but are almost universally misapplied as additional gain. It’s a fantasy people want to buy so it’s a placebo plenty are willing to sell. Using these at the mic to drive long cables makes sense but - honest question - aren't these pre-preamps exactly the same circuits mic manufacturers build in to their ACTIVE ribbons? AEA, Royer, Cloud, Samar, Mesanovic, AT, Ocean Way etc. all offer them (some both internally and as external 'dongles'... the cloudlifter came after it was used in the Cloud mics if i recall correctly) and I'd imagine those circuits are placed right at the mic input the same way people use FETHeads, CloudLifters, etc. So are ACTIVE ribbons misapplying this tech in the same way/for marketing to people with low gain interfaces? I don't own any active ribbons but have a pair of the Cathedral Pipes Durhams and am curious to know. Thanks
Superwack,
Great question! I am not sure what other companies do in their active circuits. Our philosophy is since the transformer is already in the circuit then it is a good idea to let it do all the gain. Moreover, since the transformer's noise is coming from its resistance and toroidal transformers (which we use) are extremely efficient, they add very little noise. In comparison, even the quietest and most expensive jFets available are quite a bit noisier.
Since the ribbon element itself has such a low output impedance (in the range of some 0.1-0.3 ohm) it really does not make much sonic difference between the transformer ratios say, 1:32 and 1:200. However, the transformer of 1:200 with say, ribbon of 0.1 ohm will have output impedance of 0.1x200^2=4Kohm, which is way too large of the output impedance for a microphone, so it needs a buffer. Since we do everything in the house (including winding torodial transformers) we developed a very high ratio transformer with a buffer, which is by far more neutral than any jFET amplifying stage. Such circuit does not introduce any color as opposed to the SS amplification counterpart. That's what we use in our active MF65, VL37, and VL373 ribbons.
Similar thing happens with external devices. The use of even quietest Linear Systems jFets introduces noise. On the other hand, if we use input transformer then we already have two in series, which introduces too many losses. We developed quite a special and unique solution, which with use of input transformer allows to avoid those losses and preserve original sonics without introducing noise. So please, stay tuned.
Best, M
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Post by svart on Oct 10, 2020 15:21:35 GMT -6
I've never really needed a booster on a ribbon.
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Post by boostudio on Oct 10, 2020 16:03:32 GMT -6
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 13, 2021 9:25:17 GMT -6
Bumping this thread back up.
Seems to be mixed opinions here. Some say Cloudlifter et al is a waste at best and possibly even removing "crayons from the box" at worst, others seem to swear by them. I have one that I use on my m160 for drum overheads just so that I have a bit more room to play with the sweet spot on the pre-amp in. Should I just dime the pre-amp instead and call it a day?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 13, 2021 9:39:30 GMT -6
Seems to be mixed opinions here. Some say Cloudlifter et al is a waste at best and possibly even removing "crayons from the box" at worst, others seem to swear by them. I have one that I use on my m160 for drum overheads just so that I have a bit more room to play with the sweet spot on the pre-amp in. Should I just dime the pre-amp instead and call it a day? I use M160 as OH mostly, I can't imagine needing to dime a preamp. I tend to go through a 42dB Gates preamp that's not even dimed. I dime the preamp and if needed add more gain with something after it, could be comp makeup gain, could be digital gain. Many times I don't have to dime the preamp at all. The preamp here with ribbons is almost always some ancient tube thing with a high ratio step-up transformer that has a lot of 'free' gain already. And there are other benefits, referring back to this thread: realgearonline.com/post/269312/thread
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Post by ulriggribbons on Jul 13, 2021 10:01:51 GMT -6
Bumping this thread back up. Seems to be mixed opinions here. Some say Cloudlifter et al is a waste at best and possibly even removing "crayons from the box" at worst, others seem to swear by them. I have one that I use on my m160 for drum overheads just so that I have a bit more room to play with the sweet spot on the pre-amp in. Should I just dime the pre-amp instead and call it a day? I think the removing crayons reference was to active ribbon microphones. With an active circuit in the mic, the passive output transformer (and ribbon), is no longer affected by the loading by the mic pre (the load is fixed by the active circuit). But yes, putting a fet booster of some sort in there does fix that load, you just have the option of not using it. The case for where a Fetlifter makes sense(hey, I'm making up new products! ), is where a mic pre get's noisy in the higher end of it's gain range. The premise being that a well designed fet circuit will provide the added gain with lower noise. Once you hit the bar of well designed professional mic pres ( of which there are many), this noise is no longer a problem, and adequate gain for quieter sources is not an issue (see Neve 1081 reference above). I've tried a couple of different boosters, and performance varies, depending. Sometimes the fet booster circuit is noisier than the mic pre. Sometimes it works as advertised. Another thing to consider is the quality of the phantom power design. If a mic pre design is struggling to provide clean gain, it may also be struggling to provide adequate phantom power (properly filtered, and even tho the current requirement is low, adequate current). This is often the case for electronics that are trying to do too many things ( I'm an all in one box that is USB, mic pre, balanced in, and instrument pre, for not a lot of $) $.02 Regards Jon
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 13, 2021 14:06:10 GMT -6
Seems to be mixed opinions here. Some say Cloudlifter et al is a waste at best and possibly even removing "crayons from the box" at worst, others seem to swear by them. I have one that I use on my m160 for drum overheads just so that I have a bit more room to play with the sweet spot on the pre-amp in. Should I just dime the pre-amp instead and call it a day? I use M160 as OH mostly, I can't imagine needing to dime a preamp. I tend to go through a 42dB Gates preamp that's not even dimed. I dime the preamp and if needed add more gain with something after it, could be comp makeup gain, could be digital gain. Many times I don't have to dime the preamp at all. The preamp here with ribbons is almost always some ancient tube thing with a high ratio step-up transformer that has a lot of 'free' gain already. And there are other benefits, referring back to this thread: realgearonline.com/post/269312/threadI'm exaggerating a bit, especially for overheads. Yeah, I thought that thread was very interesting. My understanding of how impedance works is still not all that great. I've got to go back and read up on all this stuff again.
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Post by theshea on Jul 13, 2021 15:34:05 GMT -6
i don‘t mind a bit of noise in my noises/songs, so i record my ribbons directly with a preamp. normally i am not using ribbons on quiet sounds anyway.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 13, 2021 19:44:07 GMT -6
I have some Cloudlifters but I ended up rarely using them.
If you have to deal with excessively long cable runs between mic and pre and/or simply don’t have enough gain with the preamp maxed out then maybe.
They are not noiseless and I found when using a quiet high gain preamp such as a Twin Servo/Millenia etc they would often actually add more noise for the same overall gain compared to not using the Cloudlifter.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2021 14:48:15 GMT -6
I’d rather use digital gain in post....and it’s free! Uh, no.
Digital gain in post does not affect the loading of the mics, and changing the impedance load is a major function of a properly designed "cloudlifter" preamp, affecting the tone of allpassive ribbons and even many dynamics notably the SM57 itself.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2021 14:54:15 GMT -6
Ward is busily scribbling SM7 notes now.. Chris Oh, you got jokes? LOL Nothing can perform a miracle on an SM7. It is what it is, a fine cool trendy microphone for lumber-sexuals. It's also great for guide vocals when tracking a band, due to it's very limited pickup range. All this talk of boosting gain . . . y'all know an AMS-Neve 1073 provides up to 80db of microphone gain, right? Actually, you CAN perform miracles of sorts on 57s. However in most cases it requires ripping out the execreable transformer and either replacing it with better, or just leaving it gone - if you don't like the loss of level, use an electronic preamp.
The sound does change significantly. Most tend to agree for the better.
OTOH, I can't really see sinking around $300 into a hopped up 57.....
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Post by EmRR on Jul 14, 2021 15:07:00 GMT -6
I’d rather use digital gain in post....and it’s free! Uh, no.
Digital gain in post does not affect the loading of the mics, and changing the impedance load is a major function of a properly designed "cloudlifter" preamp, affecting the tone of allpassive ribbons and even many dynamics notably the SM57 itself.
.....and you're misinterpreting everything.......
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Post by Ward on Jul 14, 2021 15:55:02 GMT -6
Oh, you got jokes? LOL Nothing can perform a miracle on an SM7. It is what it is, a fine cool trendy microphone for lumber-sexuals. It's also great for guide vocals when tracking a band, due to it's very limited pickup range. All this talk of boosting gain . . . y'all know an AMS-Neve 1073 provides up to 80db of microphone gain, right? Actually, you CAN perform miracles of sorts on 57s. However in most cases it requires ripping out the execreable transformer and either replacing it with better, or just leaving it gone - if you don't like the loss of level, use an electronic preamp. The sound does change significantly. Most tend to agree for the better. OTOH, I can't really see sinking around $300 into a hopped up 57.....
You my very well be right. However, I was referencing the lumbersexual's choice in the sm7. Damning it with faint praise. However you have made me think and thus wonder . . . what is the ideal load impedence for an SM7 and an SM57 Similar to Ribbons?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 14, 2021 20:36:17 GMT -6
I recall sm57’s like 600 ohms, someone wrote an article 23 years ago in Recording or something, showed that flattened the treble nasties.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 18, 2021 0:38:38 GMT -6
Uh, no.
Digital gain in post does not affect the loading of the mics, and changing the impedance load is a major function of a properly designed "cloudlifter" preamp, affecting the tone of allpassive ribbons and even many dynamics notably the SM57 itself.
.....and you're misinterpreting everything....... No, I'm not./ Why would you say that?
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