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Post by samuelpepys on Aug 20, 2020 11:21:26 GMT -6
Hi! New here. I hope to get some insight from more knowledgeable people than me.
Just a bit of background: I started out working as an engineer in a huge commercial studio complex 10 years ago. Joined the purple site around the same time. Got sick of purple site, vintage hype and the lack of clear answers, and eventually left pro audio to do other things and continue working with music in other capacities. I'm back, and me and a couple of friends is building a small studio for our own projects.
I've kept myself updated on what has happened in the gear world, and altough it's a jungle out there, I'm fairly updated in certain areas, but I would like some input from other people with more practical experience than I have.
The studio I used to work at liked vintage mics, so other than the usual workhorses such as sm57's etc, I almost exclusively recorded with pairs of 49's, pairs of 47's and 67's, and a nice c12 we had, so I'm very comfortable with these mics, and the m49's in particular.
The reason I'm asking for advice is that we are going to record very specific types of music, and thus need something that can best fit what we're recording. We are going to record acoustic music on extremely expensive and complex sounding instruments (amazing sounding parlor guitar, gut stringed Italian baroque violin from the early 1700's, really sweet sounding irish cittern, vintage 60's 3 ply Ludwigs drums played mostly with promark broomsticks and similar + well picked old K rides) and offcourse vocals, and want a big, smooth, deep and unhyped sound in general.
This far we've invested in a Prism Titan for our conversion to keep things clean and nice. I figured this was perhaps a step up from the Digidesign/Avid stuff we used in the big studio a decade ago. If I was fooled by hype, then at least we got the unit for a cheap price, so I'm not complaining.
So, the next investment is one really good mic. We will be recording each person seperately, so having one quality mic for vocals in particular is my priority. I will want to record all instruments in stereo, so I will have to get another, but for now I'm just looking for that one vocal mic that will sound great. Since I'm used to the vintage m49's, I'm thinking I'd like a good clone of the 49. I've set my eyes on the Flea 49, as it sounds like what I'm used to with the originals. If anyone can back me up on that decision or lead me to a more fitting one, that would be great!
So, considering our sonic needs and the instruments we use, what are your thought about a second microphone when the time comes for that? It cannot be as expensive as the Flea unfortunately, as our budget isn't limitless. If you know a matched set of mics that could double as drum OH for low volume, delicate playing with vintage sounding drums and still sound amazing for acoustic guitars etc, that would be very interesting as well.
Hope I didn't confuse everyone by the horrible layout and wording of my questions.
- Michael
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 20, 2020 11:45:50 GMT -6
Id look at DPA4011a or 4006a for the string instruments. Or some Schoeps MK4 or MK2. The 4006a is about as flat a mic as you can get but also insanely detailed.
While they are omni mics, they are great and if you know what you're doing you can get epic results with multiple people in the room. Or get the cardiod(4011's). The 4006s for drums for jazz stuff I don't think can be beat.
Of course if you can afford it and find then two KM84s would be great too.
I can't speak on the Flea 49, but several folks here use them and like them a lot. I think I'd through in the H47 as well if you haven't looked into Heiserman yet.
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Post by Michael O. on Aug 20, 2020 13:15:56 GMT -6
Id look at DPA4011a or 4006a for the string instruments. Or some Schoeps MK4 or MK2. The 4006a is about as flat a mic as you can get but also insanely detailed. While they are omni mics, they are great and if you know what you're doing you can get epic results with multiple people in the room. Or get the cardiod(4011's). The 4006s for drums for jazz stuff I don't think can be beat. Of course if you can afford it and find then two KM84s would be great too. I can't speak on the Flea 49, but several folks here use them and like them a lot. I think I'd through in the H47 as well if you haven't looked into Heiserman yet. I’d make exactly the same suggestions, just maybe weighing them differently due to personal preference. I personally love 84’s for the applications mentioned, the main differences between them and the other options are: the sound (this goes without saying, and the practical ramifications of it are subjective), the newness factor (an 84 can’t be purchased new and won’t be under factory warranty, but there’s very little to go wrong with them, plus there are competent mic techs out there still), and the price (if you’re patient, you should be able to get a good pair for 2/3 - 3/4 the price of the new Schoeps). If budget precludes the possibility of getting a pair of Neumann/DPA/Schoeps, then I’d suggest looking into Sennheiser’s old Tonader-powered mkh-xx5 series. The 405 is one of the most underrated cardioid SDC mics out there imo, and the 105 is the equally as excellent and overlooked omnidirectional version. The mics are less flat/more overtly colored than the later mkh series, and operate on a different principle (radio frequency rather than FET) than most condenser mics. Having said all that, there a ton of great options out there, and I wish you luck with what sounds like an extremely cool project!
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 20, 2020 13:27:53 GMT -6
You might want to reach out to Chris at Barbaric Amplification just to chat about what he can do for the M49 sound. There are several users on this forum who have had really positive experiences with him. (Full disclosure - Chris and I are buds and he helps with IAA also. We became friends through me buying a mic.)
As an alternate route to the SDCs above you might try the 3U Warbler 127 SDCs with cardioid flat capsules. They're in the KM84 ballpark, but they don't purport to be an 84 clone. I have two pairs and I have been very happy with them.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2020 14:26:11 GMT -6
Flea, Barbaric or I forget what Mr Kelley’s DBA is for a 49 clone. Don’t skimp on the Capsule, real Neumann Heisermann, or Thirsch. Would also consider Heisermann 47 tube, but for what your doing my goal would be 2 49’s Then either Schoeps or used KM80 series with new capsules. Would not be disappointed with DPA, just not my personal first choice. If I needed to save $ on the SDC’s I would beg Jim Williams to Mod a pair of used AKG 460’s.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 20, 2020 15:54:55 GMT -6
Sennheiser MKH8040 or 8020s would be worth looking into as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2020 17:21:20 GMT -6
I'd go with the DPAs and/or Schoeps as well. Both manufacturers make un-hyped mics and have a long history with acoustic instruments. I like the MK-2 as well, but you might consider the MK-21 if you need a little directionality. It rejects about 10dB at the rear, but has a frequency response that's very close to an omni.
You mentioned that you'd like to record in stereo and that's great. But rather than pure spaced omnis, you might consider LCR. If your space is large enough, it's hard to beat a Decca tree arrangement. But it's still going to give you a nice result if you've got to have the outer mics a little closer together. The center mic will help stabilize the image--especially if the players move around--and the left/right mics give you a wide soundstage that isn't so dependent on a sweet spot.
And if your tastes run more toward Blumlein or M/S, look at Mark Fouxman's lovely Samar mics. I think he's rewritten the book on what to expect out of ribbons. He's also got a cardioid that I haven't tried but I'll bet is really nice.
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Post by samuelpepys on Aug 20, 2020 17:30:07 GMT -6
Thanks man! Some good ideas there. I'm looking at km85's available in my area. If I'm only going for one sdc (which I might do if cost is prohibiting a good pair), I might choose the km85 over the 84, because of the convenient rolloff that would benefit me for every usage other than OH's, in which case I'd go for something else. I'll look into the 405! Never used that one. Always on the lookout for sleepers. Thanks again!
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Post by samuelpepys on Aug 20, 2020 17:32:35 GMT -6
You might want to reach out to Chris at Barbaric Amplification just to chat about what he can do for the M49 sound. There are several users on this forum who have had really positive experiences with him. (Full disclosure - Chris and I are buds and he helps with IAA also. We became friends through me buying a mic.) As an alternate route to the SDCs above you might try the 3U Warbler 127 SDCs with cardioid flat capsules. They're in the KM84 ballpark, but they don't purport to be an 84 clone. I have two pairs and I have been very happy with them. Thanks for the tip! Will be looking into the Warbler's!
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2020 5:37:18 GMT -6
Acoustic music? KM84s rule on guitars and the mando family. Fiddles/violins and violas sound sweet with ribbons like a Royer 121 or a Samar VL37. Cellos and basses tend to respond better to large diaphragms.
What's your budget?
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 21, 2020 6:24:37 GMT -6
Welcome to RGO! It's all about your budget. If you want the sound of those vintage mics you used to use in the past, but don't want the hassle of the vintage mics and their price tag, you have a few options: For 49s I'd recommend FleA 49s. I own two of them. They are amazing beasts, but probably have a touch less in the low mids than an original due to not using the AC701k. You can request them with an AC701, but you'll pay a premium for them. They come with M7 style capsules in them. I had mine made with K47 style capsules to get closer to an M49 I really loved. You can hear my review of the FleA 49 & FleA 47 in my video below. For 47s I am also a huge fan of FleA. I borrow my friend jtc111 's on occasion. A lot of guys on here will also swear by Heiserman's H47T. I haven't had the pleasure yet. Signal Art Electronics has a nice SAE47, but I would probably change their stock design and have it built with a different capsule; Thiersch or FleA's M7, or maybe Neumann's K47. There was something cleaner about the mic than the FleA and Wagner 47 I had experience with in the past and I'm pretty sure it was the capsule. Still, Chad will customize his mic to suite your needs. For U67s you can try building one by purchasing a TLM67 (which frankly isn't a bad mic on its own), buying the MK67 kit, and modding the kit with Neumann's BV12. I did this and the mic is incredible. It will save you a bit of cash as opposed to buying a new reissue, but the BV12s used to be easier to order. I recorded sax with this mic on Wednesday and it sounds amazing. Now they are a bit trickier. The reissues sound good, but perhaps have a bit less low end. A lot of people have simply rolled a few tubes to make the reissue suite their aesthetic. Another option as mentioned above is Barbaric. He'll build you custom mics and you'll pay quite a bit less than the boutique companies. Companies like Warm, Peluso, and Advanced Audio are great on a tight budget if you know which mics are best in each brand, but they don't live up to those vintage mics. Otherwise the advice above is good; TLM170s, Schoeps, DPA, a pair of good ribbons, etc... These are typical of classical recordings today. I'm actually trying to pick up a few mics in this category now. Still I tend to love the 49s and 67s on most things. I'm an old soul. Best of luck to you and please keep everyone posted on your music.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2020 8:13:27 GMT -6
Welcome to RGO! It's all about your budget. If you want the sound of those vintage mics you used to use in the past, but don't want the hassle of the vintage mics and their price tag, you have a few options: For 49s I'd recommend FleA 49s. I own two of them. They are amazing beasts, but probably have a touch less in the low mids than an original due to not using the AC701k. You can request them with an AC701, but you'll pay a premium for them. They come with M7 style capsules in them. I had mine made with K47 style capsules to get closer to an M49 I really loved. You can hear my review of the FleA 49 & FleA 47 in my video below. For 47s I am also a huge fan of FleA. I borrow my friend jtc111 's on occasion. A lot of guys on here will also swear by Heiserman's H47T. I haven't had the pleasure yet. Signal Art Electronics has a nice SAE47, but I would probably change their stock design and have it built with a different capsule; Thiersch or FleA's M7, or maybe Neumann's K47. There was something cleaned about the mic than the FleA and Wagner 47 I had experience with in the past and I'm pretty sure it was the capsule. Still, Chad will customize his mic to suite your needs. For U67s you can try building one by purchasing a TLM67 (which frankly isn't a bad mic on its own), buying the MK67 kit, and modding the kit with Neumann's BV12. I did this and the mic is incredible. It will save you a bit of cash as opposed to buying a new reissue, but the BV12s used to be easier to order. I recorded sax with this mic on Wednesday and it sounds amazing. Now they are a bit trickier. The reissues sound good, but perhaps have a bit less low end. A lot of people have simply rolled a few tubes to make the reissue suite their aesthetic. Another option as mentioned above is Barbaric. He'll build you custom mics and you'll pay quite a bit less than the boutique companies. Companies like Warm, Peluso, and Advanced Audio are great on a tight budget if you know which mics are best in each brand, but they don't live up to those vintage mics. Otherwise the advice above is good; TLM170s, Schoeps, DPA, a pair of good ribbons, etc... These are typical of classical recordings today. I'm actually trying to pick up a few mics in this category now. Still I tend to love the 49s and 67s on most things. I'm an old soul. Best of luck to you and please keep everyone posted on your music. Let’s not forget Fleas M50!
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 21, 2020 8:16:55 GMT -6
Let’s not forget Fleas M50! If you keep reminding me I’ll go broke... Using my BLUE Bottle Rocket Stage II with B4 capsules as a substitute for that now. Also priced out with Barbaric just taking those B4 caps and making a custom M50.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2020 8:40:43 GMT -6
Let’s not forget Fleas M50! If you keep reminding me I’ll go broke... Using my BLUE Bottle Rocket Stage II with B4 capsules as a substitute for that now. Also priced out with Barbaric just taking those B4 caps and making a custom M50. If you learned t solder you could switch the 49’s back and forth😎
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Post by drbill on Aug 21, 2020 10:59:22 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us?
I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it.
Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore?
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 21, 2020 11:09:38 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? Maybe one day. Then I'll worry about it. Until then there are other mics to obsess over.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2020 11:23:30 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? In a decent Room small ensembles and a pair of M50’s are really hard to beat. Now a pair of nice originals will set you back the cost of a nice Toyota. What ever happens with Rode M50 inspired mic?
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 21, 2020 11:31:46 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? In a decent Room small ensembles and a pair of M50’s are really hard to beat. Now a pair of nice originals will set you back the cost of a nice Toyota. What ever happens with Rode M50 inspired mic? Of that entire mic line that was announced only the SDC ever was released. They had a TF49 and TF50 that never seemed to see the light of day. R0DE just said they didn't have an update on them the last time I asked them about it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2020 11:35:29 GMT -6
In a decent Room small ensembles and a pair of M50’s are really hard to beat. Now a pair of nice originals will set you back the cost of a nice Toyota. What ever happens with Rode M50 inspired mic? Of that entire mic line that was announced only the SDC ever was released. They had a TF49 and TF50 that never seemed to see the light of day. R0DE just said they didn't have an update on them the last time I asked them about it. Yeah my hunch is they found there is far more money in inexpensive video mics then big dollar specialty mics. Kind of sucks, but understandable.
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Post by drbill on Aug 21, 2020 14:16:42 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? In a decent Room small ensembles and a pair of M50’s are really hard to beat. Now a pair of nice originals will set you back the cost of a nice Toyota. What ever happens with Rode M50 inspired mic? Interesting. In all my days, I've only seen M50's at large rooms / scoring stages used as Decca's and Outriggers. Who has $100k to spend on room mics?
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 21, 2020 14:23:15 GMT -6
Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? I have 5 M150s....never use them. Who really needs an M50 these days? Have you guys got a big scoring stage behind your house that you've been holding out on us? I love M50's. Had a killer chance to buy a pair, LCR or 5 mic system of them. I know I would never have had the chance again. But honestly, there is no reason for it. Amazing mic for big rooms. Who is using big rooms anymore? In a decent Room small ensembles and a pair of M50’s are really hard to beat. Now a pair of nice originals will set you back the cost of a nice Toyota. What ever happens with Rode M50 inspired mic? Eh, I'd prefer the DPAs personally.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 21, 2020 16:20:02 GMT -6
There is not much I can contribute besides my journey to track better acoustic guitars, just like I know them from my favorite releases.
For me it's the KM184 or the Oktava MK012.
Both work well at the usual suspect positions in a more dry tracking situation. The Oktava is a bit special - nonetheless there are MK012 moments.
I would love to own a KM 84...it will happen one day.
But to my surprise I discovered that the 184 smoothed out a lot in conjunction with my new Soundcraft DELTA preamps. Time will tell if there is still a need for the 84.
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Post by stratboy on Aug 22, 2020 7:31:23 GMT -6
Thanks man! Some good ideas there. I'm looking at km85's available in my area. If I'm only going for one sdc (which I might do if cost is prohibiting a good pair), I might choose the km85 over the 84, because of the convenient rolloff that would benefit me for every usage other than OH's, in which case I'd go for something else. I'll look into the 405! Never used that one. Always on the lookout for sleepers. Thanks again! If you get KM85s, you can get KK84 capsules from B&H for under $600 each. I did that with my KM85. Nice to have both options The KM85 is surprisingly good for vocals, though sensitive to pops.
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Post by samuelpepys on Aug 29, 2020 5:17:30 GMT -6
Thank you all for your answers. Very much appreciated. The more I actually listen, I realise the hype game is stronger in the mic world than I could imagine. Not as bad as in pre-land, where it is ridiculous, but close.
The Flea 49 is now decided upon. Until I can get some old TAB pre's and rack them, the pre's will be Focusrite ISA's, as they sounded the best on acoustic instruments for me against the others I auditioned + they have an impedance switch, which is so fricking useful even for condensers. Cannot imagine working without that.
I'm not interested in doing proper stereo miking with omnis for the baroque violin. I've already done that a tonne in churches and concert halls with all sorts of setups with Schoeps mics, including Schneider disks, etc. I'm thinking more along the lines of Gary Pacsoza - recording with two mics, but close and not doing true stereo.
SDC's for instruments will probably end up being 184s or 84s. Can't hear much differences between them other than the 184s having a clearer top end and sounding more detailed, which is naturally something I would want on such expensive and resonant instruments. I use EQ on the way in, so I could always remove a tiny bit of top if I want it closer to the 84s sound anyway, but wouldn't want to add top end that's not really there on the 84s, so maybe I'll save some money, forego the vintage hype and get a pair of them + maybe a nice pair of old Gefells for variety.
Again, lovely to read your experiences.
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Post by mike on Aug 29, 2020 6:53:27 GMT -6
The Flea 49 is now decided upon. SDC's for instruments will probably end up being 184s or 84s. Can't hear much differences between them other than the 184s having a clearer top end and sounding more detailed, which is naturally something I would want on such expensive and resonant instruments.
Though not exactly the same, if you feel that way about the 184 vs the 84, you may end up prefering as Vincent did a Flea 49 with their K47 style capsule instead of their M7 Capsule. Try both if you can before buying.
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