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Post by mrholmes on Aug 16, 2020 3:44:23 GMT -6
svart ericn johneppstein We have a family emergency but my ex said it may unload my stress if I do refurbish the PSU for the rest of the day. I did that and it took me 4 hours, I also decoupled the regulators. The PSU noise went down by 80%. The voltage for the console is right @ ø17V +- But the phantom power voltage is not 48V its 50.8V. Is this a problem?
Thanks for your help... 🙏
Cheers Holmes Nope. I bet that's unloaded voltage. Put a mic on it and I bet it goes down a little.
I measured again and used the trim pots and now it reads the exact same voltage as mentioned in the diagram. But crazy is the three warning diodes still light up and the manual says they should be dark.
I hoped to find a service manual for the CPS 150 on the internet but meh, at least no one for free they want 15 bucks for a PDF. I hope someone owns the whole service manual, please PM me.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 16, 2020 12:08:32 GMT -6
I had some time to toy around with console EQed some drums. IMO it sounds great the HF EQ is may a little pinched but I don't hear that the stock console thing sounds small or 2 D - like some people write on the internet.
Is the modification really such a big deal or do we speak another 5% on top.
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Post by christopher on Aug 16, 2020 14:28:03 GMT -6
I’ve been excited for you to get this up and running! Almost all my soundcraft experience is from live work. That clarity is their thing, a little boring and sometimes lifeless during soundcheck. They sound great once the mix is being pushed and you are out of headroom, they kind of come alive and get rounder and sweeter, yet stay pretty clean, iirc.
Here’s some tips that help me, IME. Make sure you are monitoring directly off the 2bus master fader and not through the the monitor out... not yet.. you want to verify the analog sound of the 2bus first. Play some music with bass guitar and drums through the channels. gain stage the preamp hot, faders at unity, straight to the 2bus. Next try the tape returns. See which sounds cleaner? Whichever is the cleanest/ best sound will be your DAW master channel output, and you can use the board for monitor control. I’d just play music for a few hours and get used to the sound, see if you like monitoring off the console or not. After this, try patching the monitors to the monitor output and see if it feels the same or close enough.
After this you can explore pushing the board to its limits and find the best Signal to noise and the sweet spots. for SN, I’d patch the 2bus into your converters and use headphones. Play music and push the preamp gain, check how each stage is affecting the noise floor. It’s easy to not notice any noise on a console at all until later when you try boosting highs on something. It sounds like you already are started doing this, so that’s good!
In your attempt to get the most signal and least noise, you should start to find where the distortion happens. Play with the EQ/ push preamp trim and EQ knobs and faders to their max, Route to the subgroups etc., find all the places where distortion is. Back off to where it’s acceptable, this the border of where the magic is.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 16, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -6
I agree the stock board does sound good.
The full mod makes things more linear and precise: hard to quantify , but you do hear it.
There is a simple mod to remove 1 aux send and have a rotary hpf from around 0-275, 12db.
Maybe you’d enjoy that?
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Post by christopher on Aug 16, 2020 15:04:51 GMT -6
crazy is the three warning diodes still light up and the manual says they should be dark. Where are these LEDs exactly?
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 16, 2020 15:43:26 GMT -6
I’ve been excited for you to get this up and running! Almost all my soundcraft experience is from live work. That clarity is their thing, a little boring and sometimes lifeless during soundcheck. They sound great once the mix is being pushed and you are out of headroom, they kind of come alive and get rounder and sweeter, yet stay pretty clean, iirc. Here’s some tips that help me, IME. Make sure you are monitoring directly off the 2bus master fader and not through the the monitor out... not yet.. you want to verify the analog sound of the 2bus first. Play some music with bass guitar and drums through the channels. gain stage the preamp hot, faders at unity, straight to the 2bus. Next try the tape returns. See which sounds cleaner? Whichever is the cleanest/ best sound will be your DAW master channel output, and you can use the board for monitor control. I’d just play music for a few hours and get used to the sound, see if you like monitoring off the console or not. After this, try patching the monitors to the monitor output and see if it feels the same or close enough. After this you can explore pushing the board to its limits and find the best Signal to noise and the sweet spots. for SN, I’d patch the 2bus into your converters and use headphones. Play music and push the preamp gain, check how each stage is affecting the noise floor. It’s easy to not notice any noise on a console at all until later when you try boosting highs on something. It sounds like you already are started doing this, so that’s good! In your attempt to get the most signal and least noise, you should start to find where the distortion happens. Play with the EQ/ push preamp trim and EQ knobs and faders to their max, Route to the subgroups etc., find all the places where distortion is. Back off to where it’s acceptable, this the border of where the magic is.
Thanks for your time to write this.
My original aim was to use it in tracking, but who knows it will get its own patch bay. And sure I just had a few hours with some drums and some guitars toying around getting a feel for it.
I used the direct outs for monitoring. Measured the SNR and found it was good sure pushing everything, there is a problem.
I can't test it because I don't have an Oscilloscope but now the regulators in the PSU work and I bet my decoupling helped maybe too.
You post triggers some questions 1 My impression was that warming up for an hour the DELTA sounds overall rounder and delivers a more solid low end.
2. When using for tracking (99% overdubbing) would you track back into the DAW via. the direct or tape outs or on the 2 Bus?
3. I liked the EQ section a lot...special shaping an e-guitar signal they worked fantastic to my ears.
Yeah, I let time tell if I do some modification. Sometimes I like what I hear, and I am good.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 16, 2020 15:51:24 GMT -6
crazy is the three warning diodes still light up and the manual says they should be dark. Where are these LEDs exactly? Front of the PSU...
PIC HERE:
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Post by christopher on Aug 16, 2020 15:56:48 GMT -6
Ok thanks! Someone who owns one can confirm. I think those look right and are supposed to be lit? Every other console at least likes them lit up AFAIK
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Post by mulmany on Aug 16, 2020 16:24:46 GMT -6
Where are these LEDs exactly? Front of the PSU...
PIC HERE:
Those are supposed to be lit green. Tells you that the voltage is present.
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Post by christopher on Aug 16, 2020 17:04:39 GMT -6
For overdubbing always go through either the subgroups, aux busses, or 2bus. That way you can push the faders and back the gain off on the bus. It probably won’t matter which you pick, since they all probably have similar summing amps. However the 2bus is my preference, that’s if you can use the “control rooom/monitor output” section for monitors, that’s the way to go.
Using a board for monitoring means that I have to turn it on every time I want to work. And since it’s turned on, it’s so easy to run things to the channels. For some reason, if I monitor off my converters, I will just be lazy and start trying out plugins. Next thing I know 4 hours went by, I never turned on the board, and next day I realized I accomplished nothing lol. Ymmv!
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 16, 2020 18:54:47 GMT -6
Front of the PSU...
PIC HERE:
Those are supposed to be lit green. Tells you that the voltage is present.
My gut instinct told me too,,, green lights go. And the voltage I measure is the right one too.
For some strange reason the manual of the PSU states this:
i.ibb.co/WG0n0BP/Bildschirmfoto-2020-08-17-um-02-51-10.png
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Post by christopher on Aug 16, 2020 19:53:22 GMT -6
Ah ok, this is probably one of those times English language is confusing with fault and failure in the same sentence. It’s trying to say the lights will only go dark IF something is wrong. So normally will be green. Congratulations you got a great deal
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 17, 2020 4:17:13 GMT -6
Ah ok, this is probably one of those times English language is confusing with fault and failure in the same sentence. It’s trying to say the lights will only go dark IF something is wrong. So normally will be green. Congratulations you got a great deal
I was not sure but it's the wrong grammar?
Yes it seems to be a good deal. Overall I invested 200 bucks and some time.
The seller now told me, that the console was used in a big German Bank, and he just used it two times. He thought it must be near. All the switches still feel strong, so he could be right.
I just ask myself if I can get rid of those plastic armrest stuff? Glued or screwed?
The subgroups top right heat up is this normal?
THX for your Help
Holmes...
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 17, 2020 6:04:15 GMT -6
For overdubbing always go through either the subgroups, aux busses, or 2bus. That way you can push the faders and back the gain off on the bus. It probably won’t matter which you pick, since they all probably have similar summing amps. However the 2bus is my preference, that’s if you can use the “control rooom/monitor output” section for monitors, that’s the way to go. Using a board for monitoring means that I have to turn it on every time I want to work. And since it’s turned on, it’s so easy to run things to the channels. For some reason, if I monitor off my converters, I will just be lazy and start trying out plugins. Next thing I know 4 hours went by, I never turned on the board, and next day I realized I accomplished nothing lol. Ymmv!
Did try to make the tape outs work on the subgroups... no signal at all? User fault?
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Post by christopher on Aug 17, 2020 9:51:50 GMT -6
It’s tough to tell from the manual, it looks like the TRS jacks behind the groups that say “tape” are returns. So those would be return inputs, from say an 8track reel machine: You can patch your DAW master L/R output into -> TAPE 1-8 if you want, like say returns 5+6 (it looks like 5-8 are specific for tape returns, ...1-4 can be assigned to the groups faders) . The XLRs should be the subgroup outputs. Try those to your converter inputs, should work if all the faders are up. I saw something that says there are jumper wires inside the groups channels to select Between -10dB and +4dB. Mostly likely it’s already set to +4, ...but if signal level is really low, check on that. www.soundcraft.com/en/product_documents/soundcraft-200b-ug-zm2310-pdf
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 17, 2020 11:07:04 GMT -6
It’s tough to tell from the manual, it looks like the TRS jacks behind the groups that say “tape” are returns. So those would be return inputs, from say an 8track reel machine: You can patch your DAW master L/R output into -> TAPE 1-8 if you want, like say returns 5+6 (it looks like 5-8 are specific for tape returns, ...1-4 can be assigned to the groups faders) . The XLRs should be the subgroup outputs. Try those to your converter inputs, should work if all the faders are up. I saw something that says there are jumper wires inside the groups channels to select Between -10dB and +4dB. Mostly likely it’s already set to +4, ...but if signal level is really low, check on that. www.soundcraft.com/en/product_documents/soundcraft-200b-ug-zm2310-pdf
makes sense I thought it would be the other way around
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on Aug 17, 2020 16:12:10 GMT -6
Ok Holmes I’m going to contradict some of the advice given on how to use your Delta. First, learn it, you need to know what sonically works for you and when it works. Traditionally the thought was unless you need to sum bypassing as much of the signal path as you could was a good thing unless you were aiming for the Sonics of that signal path. This is why we have direct outs !! Learn what you gain and what you lose by using useless inputs, I mean effect and tape returns. I’ll bet you find a good patchbay or 2 will prove far more valuable than those returns, your going to want to EQ and layer effects via auxes. Find a signal flow diagram study it, then play around with a source and headphone amp to learn everything you can do! You can learn so much from that diagram, in fact it was always the first thing I always look at on any console. Use the control room section as your main monitoring section, sorry but using the main stereo outputs means no solo or AFL, your going to miss these if you monitor off the mains. The difference of the mods? Maybe 5-7%, probably a little less on a little frame, most important modules to get modded? 1st master, that’s your monitor section main summing and aux summing in others words stuff you will use on every project. Then a couple of inputs, that will help you decide if it’s worth it to get them all done, you might decide it’s just not worth it, you might decide 2 Golden channels is perfect, you might get all the inputs done. The groups are last because on an 8 input mixer I’m betting they don’t see much use, you might decide 10 or 12 inputs are more useful.
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Post by thirdeye on Aug 17, 2020 20:31:05 GMT -6
It’s tough to tell from the manual, it looks like the TRS jacks behind the groups that say “tape” are returns. So those would be return inputs, from say an 8track reel machine: You can patch your DAW master L/R output into -> TAPE 1-8 if you want, like say returns 5+6 (it looks like 5-8 are specific for tape returns, ...1-4 can be assigned to the groups faders) . The XLRs should be the subgroup outputs. Try those to your converter inputs, should work if all the faders are up. I saw something that says there are jumper wires inside the groups channels to select Between -10dB and +4dB. Mostly likely it’s already set to +4, ...but if signal level is really low, check on that. www.soundcraft.com/en/product_documents/soundcraft-200b-ug-zm2310-pdfThat link goes to the 200b user manual, not the Delta user manual.
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Post by thirdeye on Aug 17, 2020 20:55:06 GMT -6
Ok Holmes I’m going to contradict some of the advice given on how to use your Delta. First, learn it, you need to know what sonically works for you and when it works. Traditionally the thought was unless you need to sum bypassing as much of the signal path as you could was a good thing unless you were aiming for the Sonics of that signal path. This is why we have direct outs !! Learn what you gain and what you lose by using useless inputs, I mean effect and tape returns. I’ll bet you find a good patchbay or 2 will prove far more valuable than those returns, your going to want to EQ and layer effects via auxes. Find a signal flow diagram study it, then play around with a source and headphone amp to learn everything you can do! You can learn so much from that diagram, in fact it was always the first thing I always look at on any console. Use the control room section as your main monitoring section, sorry but using the main stereo outputs means no solo or AFL, your going to miss these if you monitor off the mains. The difference of the mods? Maybe 5-7%, probably a little less on a little frame, most important modules to get modded? 1st master, that’s your monitor section main summing and aux summing in others words stuff you will use on every project. Then a couple of inputs, that will help you decide if it’s worth it to get them all done, you might decide it’s just not worth it, you might decide 2 Golden channels is perfect, you might get all the inputs done. The groups are last because on an 8 input mixer I’m betting they don’t see much use, you might decide 10 or 12 inputs are more useful. I absolutely agree. My opinion is, at least with my modded Delta 8, the console functions are great for a recording and mixing setup. For tracking individual inputs, I would always use the direct outs. If you want to sum a couple channels during tracking, say 2 guitar mics summed down to one AD channel, I'd use the group outs. I personally used my 16 returns a lot, for aux returns and extra inputs on mixdown. The modded master section was also really good in my opinion and I used it exclusively as my main monitor controller for years (never had an issue with sound quality for me). The only additional thing I did to the console after all the JW mods was on the mono input module's circuit board. I bypassed the unbalanced inserts and did not use them because for mixing, all my outboard was patched between the DA and the console input. The TRS insert on the mono inputs has a reputation of failing, so I bypassed them. Setup all the console i/o on a patchbay and use the console as it's designed. It's great in my opinion.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on Aug 17, 2020 21:16:26 GMT -6
Ok Holmes I’m going to contradict some of the advice given on how to use your Delta. First, learn it, you need to know what sonically works for you and when it works. Traditionally the thought was unless you need to sum bypassing as much of the signal path as you could was a good thing unless you were aiming for the Sonics of that signal path. This is why we have direct outs !! Learn what you gain and what you lose by using useless inputs, I mean effect and tape returns. I’ll bet you find a good patchbay or 2 will prove far more valuable than those returns, your going to want to EQ and layer effects via auxes. Find a signal flow diagram study it, then play around with a source and headphone amp to learn everything you can do! You can learn so much from that diagram, in fact it was always the first thing I always look at on any console. Use the control room section as your main monitoring section, sorry but using the main stereo outputs means no solo or AFL, your going to miss these if you monitor off the mains. The difference of the mods? Maybe 5-7%, probably a little less on a little frame, most important modules to get modded? 1st master, that’s your monitor section main summing and aux summing in others words stuff you will use on every project. Then a couple of inputs, that will help you decide if it’s worth it to get them all done, you might decide it’s just not worth it, you might decide 2 Golden channels is perfect, you might get all the inputs done. The groups are last because on an 8 input mixer I’m betting they don’t see much use, you might decide 10 or 12 inputs are more useful. I absolutely agree. My opinion is, at least with my modded Delta 8, the console functions are great for a recording and mixing setup. For tracking individual inputs, I would always use the direct outs. If you want to sum a couple channels during tracking, say 2 guitar mics summed down to one AD channel, I'd use the group outs. I personally used my 16 returns a lot, for aux returns and extra inputs on mixdown. The modded master section was also really good in my opinion and I used it exclusively as my main monitor controller for years (never had an issue with sound quality for me). The only additional thing I did to the console after all the JW mods was on the mono input module's circuit board. I bypassed the unbalanced inserts and did not use them because for mixing, all my outboard was patched between the DA and the console input. The TRS insert on the mono inputs has a reputation of failing, so I bypassed them. Setup all the console i/o on a patchbay and use the console as it's designed. It's great in my opinion. As I remember the insert jacks have been known to fail if they are patched/ unpatched, so bring them out to a bay should solve any issues.
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Post by christopher on Aug 17, 2020 22:56:41 GMT -6
It’s tough to tell from the manual, it looks like the TRS jacks behind the groups that say “tape” are returns. So those would be return inputs, from say an 8track reel machine: You can patch your DAW master L/R output into -> TAPE 1-8 if you want, like say returns 5+6 (it looks like 5-8 are specific for tape returns, ...1-4 can be assigned to the groups faders) . The XLRs should be the subgroup outputs. Try those to your converter inputs, should work if all the faders are up. I saw something that says there are jumper wires inside the groups channels to select Between -10dB and +4dB. Mostly likely it’s already set to +4, ...but if signal level is really low, check on that. www.soundcraft.com/en/product_documents/soundcraft-200b-ug-zm2310-pdfThat link goes to the 200b user manual, not the Delta user manual. Glad you guys stepped in, makes sense why only 3 LEDs! Phew... I definitely defer to those more knowledgeable on this. Good tips
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Post by christopher on Aug 17, 2020 23:02:16 GMT -6
... direct out is the standard approach, because it’s cleanest and important for the tape era. For digital I realized I personally never listen to PFL on a single speaker when getting a sound, I always listen to stereo bus on both speakers so why am I not capturing a stereo bus? One of those aha moments, esp when pushing the the faders when both sides get nonlinear and 3D and yet it wasn’t being captured, and made me frustrated and mentally challenged for a few years.. But of course, there are no rules.. whatever works!
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 19, 2020 13:02:25 GMT -6
Thanks guys yeah a second patchbay is on the way and later this year I invest in 12 more IOs ... with this the setup could be used to any taste.
Comments on inserting outboard on the console via direct on the DAAD? Any difference I would notice?
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Post by thirdeye on Aug 19, 2020 14:45:31 GMT -6
Thanks guys yeah a second patchbay is on the way and later this year I invest in 12 more IOs ... with this the setup could be used to any taste. Comments on inserting outboard on the console via direct on the DAAD? Any difference I would notice?My only comment on that is the channel insert on the console is unbalanced. That's why when mixing I always inserted my outboard between the DA and before the line input of the console.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 19, 2020 14:46:59 GMT -6
Also -6 dB drop and wired unusually ?
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