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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 10, 2020 14:25:52 GMT -6
The biggest translation problem with speakers are inaudible dips in their response.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 21:39:15 GMT -6
The biggest translation problem with speakers are inaudible dips in their response. Yeah the internet focuses on the room so much they ignore the box resonances and port issues in hifi speakers and bad monitors just hide problems that need to be removed. I hear it all the time in bandcamp metal stuff mixed on random hifi speakers or the thin MDF cheap chinese monitors. They either leave in gross low mid resonances or cut them severely. I even hear it in supposedly "pre-processed" sample packs and VSTis where if they had used anything north of an HS8 in box/port quality, those wouldn't be there. Lots of the "cardboard" areas are left in to the point where I'd rather the samples be totally unprocessed. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2020 21:53:34 GMT -6
The biggest translation problem with speakers are inaudible dips in their response. I’ll say it again Bob, We don’t listen to speakers, we listen through speakers. |
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Post by markfouxman on Aug 11, 2020 15:06:46 GMT -6
Patent infringement? Do you have any details--would be very interesting to learn. The true ribbons they used only in higher end Magnepans (from memory 1.6?). I never really liked Magnepans, most electrostatics, and Duetta low end. Because of the front-to-back cancellation and amount of air it needs to move the area becomes way big with severe directivity shortcomings. Also, it should be stiff and work in a pure 'piston' mode to get low distortions. I am yet to hear an open baffle ribbon/electrostatic speaker with a satisfying amount of low end and lack of strain. For the Apogee 36" ribbons low end I am using Faital 15" mid/woofer on an open baffle crossing at 800Hz. This is quite amazing (although expensive) woofer--the cone weight is only 115gram (which is quite amazing for that size driver), so it is comfortable going up to 1kHz. But then again, the directivity on the top range is still a problem. I am thinking of adding there a midrange--Audax PR170MO, which is amazing and has those 'magic' qualities... But then the Apogee can become a bit off place being a line source, so I will need to think of making something more appropriate for the job... All the driving amps/pres with optimized gain and no global feedback anywhere in the signal chain I designed and built myself. Before I was using tube amp with cathode follower in the KT88 output stage. To get a huge voltage swing required I used 6B4G (6volt filament 2A3) with 1:2 interstage transformer. When I had Martin Logan electrostatics CLSII full range I made a direct driven tube amp on huge 805 tubes in PP and plate voltage of 1500 Volts at some 300ma(!!!!!). That was a beast with pretty amazing sound! Lately, I became a huge fan of hybrid amps--again no global negative geedback, tube front and output solid state buffer. That's what I am using now for both, the Apogee/Faital (biamped with passive LCR front end crossover), and ESL63. For the ESL63 I am thinking of KT88 output and 1:2 output transformer to drive it directly, which makes perfect sense to eliminate first huge step down, and then step up (which is already in the speaker). Unfortunately, the microphones take all the time, so I am yet to see when and if I will be ever able to get to this project))) Best, M Both companies were quite closed lipped about it, some have said it was about the line source ribbon others have said it was all about the bass panel. One source from MN told me it had to do with an adhesive used. I don’t know the details except that Apogee lost and the settlement included Apogee paying a royalty for every speaker sold. I do remember hearing one of the guys from Apogee complaining that it would drive them out of buisness, and it did. Remember most of the early Magnepan guys were from 3M the American king of patents. The Apogees were quite impressive, but I think 2 factors drove towards Magnepan 1 in my youth I could afford amps that could could drive them well, the current demands of Apogees really limit your amp choice. 2 every time I heard them they were in the same room as the Infinity Beta’s and those servo bass towers just had that Umph and seamed to go down to never land. I think the Carver Amazing Apogee clone also left a bad taste in my mouth, it was a Amazing how life like it made synth sound and how synthesized real instruments sounded. The only way to really get any conventional driver to gel with a line source ribbon is to use multiples in a line array, but you always seam to lose something because you no matter how tight the manufacturers freq. and phase tolerance you notice that loss of detail. The Quad 63 with a little tube amp is the lens every mic manufacturer should use to judge the midrange, if only they went low and played loud. My favorite ESL will always be out of my price range, the best speaker ever designed by a deaf guy, the big Soundlabs. Thanks! Very interesting about Apogee vs. Maggies... I don't see how the Carver Amazing was an Apogee clone--the mid/tweeter part had printed ribbon and attached to the sides, vs. 'true ribbon' Apogee... I heard them quite a bit with Leak 50, Marantz 8, Quad II, Threshhold. They really showed all the beautiful qualities of the amps very nicely. With enough drive they could go to ear shattering levels and quite amazing bass. The main problem was reliability. The original one with Tonegen woofers were much better. The later Al flat honeycombs were absolute disaster! The ESL63 has perhaps the best midrange ever made in the speakers. If crossed below some 150-200Hz they can go to quite significant levels. My plan is to put Faital on open baffle (and of course, appropriate correction) to serve the low end and get the dream speaker of unparalleled musicality. I have here some other line source electrostatics (don't remember the name--they are some innovative design from Denmark). Never had chance to hear Soundlabs--the sheer size is impressive, however, it is interesting how they address directivity. The ML CLSII was disaster in this department... Best, M |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 14, 2020 19:09:16 GMT -6
I wanted to share some eye opening experiences I've had since using the NHT SuperOnes with the Adam A7's/Tannoy Sub setup.
First, I'm loving the NHT's. They sound flatter to me than the A7's. But the big difference is the workflow of having two sets of monitors to instantly A/B. It such a simple thing, and I'm kicking myself for not doing it sooner. I do most of my critical EQ, compression, panning etc on the Adams. Then I check on the NHT's. Does it still sound good? If so I'm done. If not I rebalance, adjust etc on the Adam's and listen again on the NHT. It's allowed me to mix faster and better.
Two...The real eye opener is that after comparing the JBL 705's and the NHT's, side-by-side, to the Adam's it helped me learn my Adam's way better. Its like I had a pile of audio information in my head, disorganized and spread across the floor. Hearing different speakers side-by-side was like the filing cabinet in my brain that allowed me to sort all that info and make sense of it. It didn't take too long. Now I understand my A7's sooo much better. I recognize their flaws and their strengths so much more clearly now. The Adam's have become a much more powerful tool in my arsenal since getting the NHT's.
Three, I'm using IK Arc as a pseudo set of extra speakers rather then relying on them to correct my Adam's. If a mix sounds good on the A7's, w/ and with out ARC, and the NHT, and my headphones I'm good.
Anyway, still plan on trying some other speakers over time. I'd like to find something that does what the Adams do, just a little better. Maybe a better set of Adams, like the S2v? I dunno. I have to say that I'm really impressed with passive, closed cabinet speakers at this point. ATC scm12's interest me. Amphion One15's too. I'm a little leary of active class D speakers right now. But I know its all relative and I'm sure there are tons of active class D speakers that are amazing.
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Post by christopher on Aug 15, 2020 11:10:30 GMT -6
Exactly my experience with the KEF 105. Being able to do the A/B situation and switch back and forth helped me understand my monitors so much better. I could see exactly how things translate to the KEFs and after a few hours of switching A/B I found I didn’t really need to A/B anymore, just kind of knew. Like a little lightbulb went off and I could see how the engineers of the world could mix 99% on small speakers. They weren’t turning them up and checking the low woofer excursion or trying to make them act like big speakers.. they just switch to the big speakers for that (and already know what to expect when they do)
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 17, 2020 23:27:50 GMT -6
This has been a fantastic thread, Tbone81. Really want to thank you for starting it. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 19, 2020 21:54:33 GMT -6
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2020 12:29:43 GMT -6
A Speaker is a speaker the only thing that really makes a “ monitor” different is who sells it ! So if it works for you it works for you! That's so true. Abby Road is (or was) an all B&W facility. Pro Ac, NHT, KEF all have pro fans. NHT had a pro division, but I'm not certain the speakers were any different from the monitors. That seems like a pretty fair price. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2020 13:30:58 GMT -6
A Speaker is a speaker the only thing that really makes a “ monitor” different is who sells it ! So if it works for you it works for you! That's so true. Abby Road is (or was) an all B&W facility. Pro Ac, NHT, KEF all have pro fans. NHT had a pro division, but I'm not certain the speakers were any different from the monitors. That seems like a pretty fair price. Price is about $1500 lower than market, problem is “no ship”. B&W just emailed me that they don’t have any boxes or shipping materials, so would need somebody to box. At an estimated 180lbs each boxed freight with lift truck on both ends $570 |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 21, 2020 20:32:57 GMT -6
That's so true. Abby Road is (or was) an all B&W facility. Pro Ac, NHT, KEF all have pro fans. NHT had a pro division, but I'm not certain the speakers were any different from the monitors. That seems like a pretty fair price. Price is about $1500 lower than market, problem is “no ship”. B&W just emailed me that they don’t have any boxes or shipping materials, so would need somebody to box. At an estimated 180lbs each boxed freight with lift truck on both ends $570 That's pretty steep. |
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