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Post by EmRR on Jul 21, 2020 9:04:35 GMT -6
Who’s got a good source for NOS tubes in Europe? And how long does it take to change the tube and put the mic back together? 30-60 seconds
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Post by EmRR on Jul 21, 2020 9:14:09 GMT -6
Neumann has a huge tolerance on their capsules. What makes you say that? I would think that Neumann, of all companies, would have the machinery & expertise to manufacture within very narrow tolerances... everything I've read seems to confirm this. Can you explain what you mean? +/-2dB, so a potential 4dB variation. We have Klaus saying there's always an obvious difference between sides of a capsule, so there's obvious variation in tolerance.
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Post by m03 on Jul 21, 2020 9:14:57 GMT -6
Who’s got a good source for NOS tubes in Europe? And how long does it take to change the tube and put the mic back together? 30-60 seconds
I think the anxiety regarding whether I screwed the bottom on tight enough took longer than the actual tube swap.
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 21, 2020 9:51:19 GMT -6
What makes you say that? I would think that Neumann, of all companies, would have the machinery & expertise to manufacture within very narrow tolerances... everything I've read seems to confirm this. Can you explain what you mean? +/-2dB, so a potential 4dB variation. We have Klaus saying there's always an obvious difference between sides of a capsule, so there's obvious variation in tolerance. Yeah, I've seen Klaus mention the ±2dB variation, but he's also said that's as good as it gets. It just seems kind of odd to state that Neumann capsules have a "huge" tolerance... huge compared to what?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 21, 2020 10:20:11 GMT -6
+/-2dB, so a potential 4dB variation. We have Klaus saying there's always an obvious difference between sides of a capsule, so there's obvious variation in tolerance. Yeah, I've seen Klaus mention the ±2dB variation, but he's also said that's as good as it gets. It just seems kind of odd to state that Neumann capsules have a "huge" tolerance... huge compared to what? Compared to almost anything. You wouldn't buy a preamp or compressor or eq with 4dB variation in the stated bandpass. Consumer hi-fi gear in the '70's was generally flatter than that. You buy a modern transformerless preamp, or active DI, it's gonna be less than a quarter dB variation in many cases, or less. Lots of things are ruler flat. Microphone capsules are not. Speakers are not. That feeds back into the question about tubes. Symbiotic relationship, see what I said earlier here.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 21, 2020 10:48:15 GMT -6
Roughly, how much are you paying for your NOS Telefunkens? I've found a few in Europe and might take the chance.
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Post by ragan on Jul 21, 2020 10:50:30 GMT -6
Yeah, I've seen Klaus mention the ±2dB variation, but he's also said that's as good as it gets. It just seems kind of odd to state that Neumann capsules have a "huge" tolerance... huge compared to what? Compared to almost anything. You wouldn't buy a preamp or compressor or eq with 4dB variation in the stated bandpass. Consumer hi-fi gear in the '70's was generally flatter than that. You buy a modern transformerless preamp, or active DI, it's gonna be less than a quarter dB variation in many cases, or less. Lots of things are ruler flat. Microphone capsules are not. Speakers are not. That feeds back into the question about tubes. Symbiotic relationship, see what I said earlier here. I think he meant compared to what other types of capsules.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 21, 2020 11:16:09 GMT -6
Compared to almost anything. You wouldn't buy a preamp or compressor or eq with 4dB variation in the stated bandpass. Consumer hi-fi gear in the '70's was generally flatter than that. You buy a modern transformerless preamp, or active DI, it's gonna be less than a quarter dB variation in many cases, or less. Lots of things are ruler flat. Microphone capsules are not. Speakers are not. That feeds back into the question about tubes. Symbiotic relationship, see what I said earlier here. I think he meant compared to what other types of capsules. sure....see my last sentence....
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Post by chessparov on Jul 21, 2020 11:38:20 GMT -6
Call me crazy, but I think the company that actually invented and built the mic is capable enough to select the appropriate tube. Just like my (Telefunken Badged) MXL V69! No effort was spared, in its (10 cent) tube selection. Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jul 21, 2020 11:44:00 GMT -6
I've noticed that to be a common observation amongst people who have related products or services to sell.
Now Now. We all need to make every effort... To make manufacturers feel comfortable participating with us. Even Joshua. (kidding kidding Joshua!) Chris
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Post by tkaitkai on Jul 21, 2020 12:03:21 GMT -6
Yeah, I've seen Klaus mention the ±2dB variation, but he's also said that's as good as it gets. It just seems kind of odd to state that Neumann capsules have a "huge" tolerance... huge compared to what? Compared to almost anything. You wouldn't buy a preamp or compressor or eq with 4dB variation in the stated bandpass. Consumer hi-fi gear in the '70's was generally flatter than that. You buy a modern transformerless preamp, or active DI, it's gonna be less than a quarter dB variation in many cases, or less. Lots of things are ruler flat. Microphone capsules are not. Speakers are not. That feeds back into the question about tubes. Symbiotic relationship, see what I said earlier here. I might have worded that poorly — I meant compared to other capsules, not gear in general. I get that mic capsules, by nature, have wider tolerances than other types of gear. But the statement that Neumann capsules in particular have "huge" tolerances seems strange to me, because comparatively speaking, it doesn't get much better. Unless I'm mistaken?
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Post by m03 on Jul 21, 2020 12:18:35 GMT -6
I've noticed that to be a common observation amongst people who have related products or services to sell.
Now Now. We all need to make every effort... To make manufacturers feel comfortable participating with us. Even Joshua. (kidding kidding Joshua!) Chris The counterpoint is that they're far more qualified than "random guy with predisposition towards conspiracy theories on a forum" to make such an assessment.
But still, there are so many mics that I don't hear this sort of thing about that it makes me curious. Like, are there as many comments about inconsistencies in Sony C800G capsules, Josephson capsules, Microtech Gefell capsules, Haun capsules, etc and I'm just not clued in? Or are people who buy those more likely to just accept them as they are and get on with using them?
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Post by chessparov on Jul 21, 2020 12:46:48 GMT -6
Hi m03. I was really kidding about it. The U67 is justifiably a true Icon. So it's understandable people want the very best from it. Whether you prefer the original flavor, or the new "extra crispy" Reissue recipe (oops there I go again! ). Actually, I totally agree with Joshua (Stam). IMHO tube swapping, even if it's a lateral move, is a great way to get a somewhat different tone out of a microphone-or Hardware in general. Chris P.S. Now if you have an original U47, I hope you have the VF-14 in it. That's like following Enzo's wishes, for a Ferrari only being red!
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Post by EmRR on Jul 21, 2020 12:48:47 GMT -6
I've already said it a bunch of times, but unless you grok the tech aspects why the tube and the capsule are interactive, it's just gonna go over your head without a comparative listening test. There is no other mic with feedback to the capsule like this, and the tube parameters affect the dance between the two parts. It's a false narrative to question Neumann capsule variations against other capsules, because there is no similar comparison to be made elsewhere between complete systems. The thread being about tube selection, the answer being that every tube and capsule result may be different. It would be true of other manufacturers mics if there were a similar comparison to be had, but there isn't. If you have a thinner sounding capsule, that muddy ass Mullard may be a winner. If you have a fat sounding capsule, that Mullard is probably the worst loser.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 21, 2020 12:50:48 GMT -6
So much for a NOS Mullard being in my V69. Who wants to sound like being in the La Brea Tar Pits! Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 21, 2020 18:21:07 GMT -6
Call me crazy, but I think the company that actually invented and built the mic is capable enough to select the appropriate tube. Any tube change will mean a sligh change in gain. If the tube I put in is even a half dB hotter, it's going to sound "better". It's a very difficult experiment to make. However, I agree that I might just pop a new tube in, love it, and that would be it. I'm not ruling it out... No.
Any company that mass producers microphones is going to use a tube they can purchase in large quantities. A company like Neumann is going to use the best they can find under the circumstances, but given what NOS tubes go for these days there is no way they're going to be using the best tube available. The best tube affordable in quantity, yes, but there is no way they're going to spend NOS money.
And new tubes are not as good as quality old tubes. Generally, not even close.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 21, 2020 18:23:01 GMT -6
+/-2dB, so a potential 4dB variation. We have Klaus saying there's always an obvious difference between sides of a capsule, so there's obvious variation in tolerance. Yeah, I've seen Klaus mention the ±2dB variation, but he's also said that's as good as it gets. It just seems kind of odd to state that Neumann capsules have a "huge" tolerance... huge compared to what? Old Neumann capsules, of course.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 21, 2020 18:24:53 GMT -6
Worth posting in this thread.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 21, 2020 18:29:50 GMT -6
Now Now. We all need to make every effort... To make manufacturers feel comfortable participating with us. Even Joshua. (kidding kidding Joshua!) Chris The counterpoint is that they're far more qualified than "random guy with predisposition towards conspiracy theories on a forum" to make such an assessment.
But still, there are so many mics that I don't hear this sort of thing about that it makes me curious. Like, are there as many comments about inconsistencies in Sony C800G capsules, Josephson capsules, Microtech Gefell capsules, Haun capsules, etc and I'm just not clued in? Or are people who buy those more likely to just accept them as they are and get on with using them?
Random guy?
How about guys who have spent most of their lives working on microphones?
Anmd no, they are not necessarily "more qualified". Remember that large corporations are beholden to shareholders and boards of directors.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 21, 2020 18:36:19 GMT -6
Ok, ok, I’m succumbing your peer pressure. I’ll try some! As for the S2 question, yes, you can snip it. The reissue only differs from the original in the headbasket assembly, because it uses the current one (same as U87 Ai). Who likes current production Neumann mics? Ask Al Schmitt. I think he’s done a few records... Do you know him?
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Post by chessparov on Jul 21, 2020 18:55:24 GMT -6
What's funny John, is that my Mom met Al. Back when he was recording Sam Cooke!:)She was friends with the Producers, Hugo and Luigi. Chris
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Post by m03 on Jul 21, 2020 19:10:02 GMT -6
The random guy was a reference to myself. I was being critical towards my previous comment. Keeping context in mind is important. How about guys who have spent most of their lives working on microphones? That's the "they" I was referring to in regards to the "more qualified" comment.
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Post by bowie on Jul 22, 2020 1:02:35 GMT -6
Unfortunately I'm not a big tube connoisseur. The tube in our 67 is what's been in there the whole time we've had it, a GE 6267. After reading this thread, perhaps I'll try a different one to see if I like it more. Your is Japanese production. None of the US companies made an EF86 so they (RCA, Tung Sol, Sylvania, GE) out-sourced them. You'll often see the country of origin listed incorrectly (in this case, I'm guessing is says "Gt Britain"). If you like this type and want to find more you'll sometimes see this same tube branded for NEC (a major Japanese electronics company). Though they might not be the most sought-after EF86s, I consider these to be better than most other EF86s of 70's and 80's.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 22, 2020 2:39:31 GMT -6
Worth posting in this thread. Thanks for that! It looks like I'll be keeping the stock tube after all! :-) (well unless I come across a very decently priced NOS, that is) Before I bought the mic, I tested it extensively - and tried my best to buy something else! I understand what has been explained about why the tube matters so much in this circuit. Right now, I don't find a problem with the low end or high end of my U67 - or the midrange. I would need to make some tests, but more end would possibly be a problem. Those of you that swapped tubes, what problems did you fix with the tube swap?
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Post by Ward on Jul 22, 2020 6:15:38 GMT -6
Call me crazy, but I think the company that actually invented and built the mic is capable enough to select the appropriate tube. In the case of the U67RI, I've seen a couple of people at GS talk about trying different tubes and coming back to the one provided my Neumann as being the best Here's what we know . . . 1. There are a lot of people on GS 2. There are almost as many 'experts' 3. People with opinions on things they're never used 4. People who have no idea what they're talking about and then there's . . . 5. The scattered soul who ventures into the abyss and speaks to something he has direct experience with and knows what he's talking about, and tries to be helpful to others but then gets flamed by a few of the 1-2-3-4 types and says "That's it, I'm outta here for 6 months to 2 yers" (just to put a lot of GS replies into perspective)
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