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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 11:57:46 GMT -6
Odd order harmonics sound fine. Lots of great gear produces odd order harmonics. They are not inherently bad. I'll give you an example, it is said that tape machines produce a fair amount of odd order harmonics when distorted, as well as transformers. Some of the most coveted sounds. This is some sort of public myth or something that odd order harmonics are "bad" or "unmusical." Tape and transformer saturation sound nothing like digital compression though. Those add odd order harmonics but also soften and dull the top as they get brighter. Most digital compressors produce only odd order harmonics along with the inherent to the process imd. They do not produce any even harmonics at all. I don’t know of any analog compressors that do that. Poor digital compression is a big contributor to the harshness and reediness of most itb mixes.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 14, 2020 13:46:10 GMT -6
Have you measured any analog compressors? Lots of harmonics can be generated by any sort of wave shaping including intermodulation distortion. Some of them are odd. For example if the wave shaping is symmetrical.
I'm trying to learn here too but I don't understand the obsession with one type of harmonics over another.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 14, 2020 14:24:47 GMT -6
Have you measured any analog compressors? Lots of harmonics can be generated by any sort of wave shaping including intermodulation distortion. Some of them are odd. For example if the wave shaping is symmetrical. I'm trying to learn here too but I don't understand the obsession with one type of harmonics over another. FWIW I'm not reading it as an obsession, but that he's pointing out one type is there exclusively, with others missing. Then there's the question of WHICH harmonics, whether even or odd, and in what mix.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 14, 2020 15:12:06 GMT -6
Have you measured any analog compressors? Lots of harmonics can be generated by any sort of wave shaping including intermodulation distortion. Some of them are odd. For example if the wave shaping is symmetrical. I'm trying to learn here too but I don't understand the obsession with one type of harmonics over another. FWIW I'm not reading it as an obsession, but that he's pointing out one type is there exclusively, with others missing. Then there's the question of WHICH harmonics, whether even or odd, and in what mix. Thanks, gotcha. I just think if we're going to be posting graphs in a hardware/software thread there should be some of each, to compare. I wonder how these harmonic spectrums look in hardware. I know a distressor can do even, odd, or a mix, but I haven't graphed an Arousor to compare. It doesn't even have a mode switch anyway, wonder what he picked.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 14, 2020 15:18:57 GMT -6
; I know a distressor can do even, odd, or a mix, but I haven't graphed an Arousor to compare. It doesn't even have a mode switch anyway, wonder what he picked. Cherry picking one point: Distressor is EXTRA harmonics on TOP of whatever the compression does. It's not related to the compression itself. A Distressor is basically an 1176 with different control ranges and IC gain blocks, it's a FET compressor. One guy reverse engineered it long ago and put a schematic out there until Dave Derr shut it down.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 14, 2020 16:13:30 GMT -6
; I know a distressor can do even, odd, or a mix, but I haven't graphed an Arousor to compare. It doesn't even have a mode switch anyway, wonder what he picked. Cherry picking one point: Distressor is EXTRA harmonics on TOP of whatever the compression does. It's not related to the compression itself. A Distressor is basically an 1176 with different control ranges and IC gain blocks, it's a FET compressor. One guy reverse engineered it long ago and put a schematic out there until Dave Derr shut it down. Very cool information, thanks. I thought of the saturation vs compression thing hours after I posted, LOL. So thanks for pointing it out also. I don't know if this is the right thread for it but I will try to learn about how harmonics are generated in gain reduction. I guess I'm not too surprised that the Distressor has DNA shared with a big grandaddy circuit. I love this stuff, you can always learn more.
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Post by sirthought on Jul 15, 2020 12:53:25 GMT -6
Distressor is a VCA compressor.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 13:14:52 GMT -6
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Post by sirthought on Jul 15, 2020 13:20:13 GMT -6
Distressor is a VCA compressor. Not so, not according to the research I've seen. Have any to point at? Just the diagram in the manual.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 13:21:36 GMT -6
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Post by sirthought on Jul 15, 2020 13:22:18 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 13:29:57 GMT -6
And? They are potentially suggesting it's a VCA compressor in their manual. The reverse engineer says not.
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Post by sirthought on Jul 15, 2020 13:32:25 GMT -6
Who am I to argue with a reverse engineer. All I know is in conversations where I've researched this in the past, that's been the answer I've come up with. They state in the manual about VCA in a few different places. So...that's my knowledge of it.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 13:34:22 GMT -6
Who am I to argue with a reverse engineer. All I know is in conversations where I've researched this in the past, that's been the answer I've come up with. They state in the manual about VCA in a few different places. So...that's my knowledge of it. That manual was assembled in the mid 90's, and the 1176 was barely out of production. A wise thing to mislead about at the time, from a manufacturers perspective. They had to market a new magical versatility.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 15, 2020 14:07:02 GMT -6
Aren’t the drivers the Achilles heel of Antelope interfaces: seems to me I have heard about this for years? If you're the sort who doesn't believe in reading instructions BEFORE installing and who does not follow said instructions exactly you WILL screw up the installation and will need factory help to sort out the mess.
If you follow the instructions exactly you should not have a problem. I didn't, but I also make sure that I follow the installation instructions exactly.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 15, 2020 14:49:11 GMT -6
That GroupDIY post says "everything is replaced by op amps" compared to an 1176. I wonder if that means FET section is replaced with an IC VCA? The language is not clear enough for me to pick a side. I'm aware that a VCA is not an op amp but I still don't know. Dave Derr is not on this forum but I'm sure he would answer the question. At least I think he would.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 14:50:12 GMT -6
; I know a distressor can do even, odd, or a mix, but I haven't graphed an Arousor to compare. It doesn't even have a mode switch anyway, wonder what he picked. Cherry picking one point: Distressor is EXTRA harmonics on TOP of whatever the compression does. It's not related to the compression itself. A Distressor is basically an 1176 with different control ranges and IC gain blocks, it's a FET compressor. One guy reverse engineered it long ago and put a schematic out there until Dave Derr shut it down. That's a goddamn shame. The Distressor awesome at solving dynamic issues but it makes things sound like plastic modern rock and modern metal crap without even using the meme sample packs and plugins. Mods would be more common and it would be even more popular if more information could be found out about it and the horrific box tone negated.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 16:10:27 GMT -6
Mods would be more common and it would be even more popular if more information could be found out about it and the horrific box tone negated. There is a mod, dandeurloo has had it done and spoken highly of it. I have also complained about the constant tone, it works fine for certain things and steps on others.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 15, 2020 16:28:53 GMT -6
Odd order harmonics sound fine. Lots of great gear produces odd order harmonics. They are not inherently bad. I'll give you an example, it is said that tape machines produce a fair amount of odd order harmonics when distorted, as well as transformers. Some of the most coveted sounds. This is some sort of public myth or something that odd order harmonics are "bad" or "unmusical." Tape and transformer saturation sound nothing like digital compression though. Those add odd order harmonics but also soften and dull the top as they get brighter. Most digital compressors produce only odd order harmonics along with the inherent to the process imd. They do not produce any even harmonics at all. I don’t know of any analog compressors that do that. Poor digital compression is a big contributor to the harshness and reediness of most itb mixes.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 15, 2020 16:59:46 GMT -6
That GroupDIY post says "everything is replaced by op amps" compared to an 1176. I wonder if that means FET section is replaced with an IC VCA? The language is not clear enough for me to pick a side. I'm aware that a VCA is not an op amp but I still don't know. Dave Derr is not on this forum but I'm sure he would answer the question. At least I think he would. VCA just means voltage controlled amplifier. The element that changes the gain from the control voltage is the VCA. It gets confusing cuz we also use VCA for the Blackmer type thing.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 15, 2020 18:33:24 GMT -6
That GroupDIY post says "everything is replaced by op amps" compared to an 1176. I wonder if that means FET section is replaced with an IC VCA? The language is not clear enough for me to pick a side. I'm aware that a VCA is not an op amp but I still don't know. Dave Derr is not on this forum but I'm sure he would answer the question. At least I think he would. There's another post from him in another thread I didn't link in which he refers to the FET.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 15, 2020 20:15:56 GMT -6
Thanks for clearing that up! I'll have to look at some VCA datasheets to get more ideas. Good to hear from the experts as always.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 10:24:21 GMT -6
Tape and transformer saturation sound nothing like digital compression though. Those add odd order harmonics but also soften and dull the top as they get brighter. Most digital compressors produce only odd order harmonics along with the inherent to the process imd. They do not produce any even harmonics at all. I don’t know of any analog compressors that do that. Poor digital compression is a big contributor to the harshness and reediness of most itb mixes.
Isn’t the Behringer 1176 supposed to sound nothing like the real thing tonally? Could it be modded or trashed up to produce even order harmonics? I’m not going to go to any studio until next year but I measured the DMG Trackcomp 1176 demo (I hate the GUI) and it looks more like the Slate with less aliasing. So did the Waves CLA 76 (Aliased though) but I didn’t save it and uninstalled all waves a while ago. Overloud 76 wouldn’t load in plugin doctor.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 16, 2020 11:38:50 GMT -6
Isn’t the Behringer 1176 supposed to sound nothing like the real thing tonally? Could it be modded or trashed up to produce even order harmonics? I’m not going to go to any studio until next year but I measured the DMG Trackcomp 1176 demo (I hate the GUI) and it looks more like the Slate with less aliasing. So did the Waves CLA 76 (Aliased though) but I didn’t save it and uninstalled all waves a while ago. Overloud 76 wouldn’t load in plugin doctor.
I use my ears and my ears tell me the KT 76 sounds great.
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Post by christopher on Jul 16, 2020 12:48:39 GMT -6
It’s not really the type of harmonics that makes gear sound the way it does. Yes there’s a difference, pleasing vs unpleasant. When I was at a guitar shop we had some early transistor amps come in, and it’s amazing how tube like they sound vs the 80s-2000s solid state amps. And the early transistor amps, while sounding a million times better than 80s versions, still were dissed by guitarists of the 60s/70s because it wasn’t as pleasing as the tube amps. Today they are very warm sounding and getting some sort of respect for that.. probably thanks to discrete big components.
The reason plugins don’t sound as good is because the harmonics are not real, and don’t sound real.
Check out Melda plugins.. there’s one that allows you to make your own blend of whatever harmonics you want to add. The harmonics sound like auto tune
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