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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 15, 2020 21:17:33 GMT -6
So - the biggest thing I find that continues to be weird for me with fake piano or drums, etc. is the range of velocities. I always tend to find myself going into the track and adjusting hits - compressing velocities seems to always be a thing. It’s weird that the thought has been there wasn’t enough touch sensitivity forever and now it feels like it’s too much. I can’t ever seem to get velocity control right. It very well might be that it’s my playing - and General un-knowledge...but that’s why this place is here, right?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 15, 2020 21:38:34 GMT -6
In most VI's there's a setting to change the velocity curve from linear to log, so from a straight line to exponential. I find there's a different sweet spot for every instrument.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 15, 2020 21:44:41 GMT -6
So - the biggest thing I find that continues to be weird for me with fake piano or drums, etc. is the range of velocities. I always tend to find myself going into the track and adjusting hits - compressing velocities seems to always be a thing. It’s weird that the thought has been there wasn’t enough touch sensitivity forever and now it feels like it’s too much. I can’t ever seem to get velocity control right. It very well might be that it’s my playing - and General un-knowledge...but that’s why this place is here, right? John, you may consider drawing a custom velocity curve for your keyboard in your DAW (if your keyboard doesn’t offer multiple velocity curve options). I had to do that on one particular keyboard of mine in the past. It’s like you’re adjusting the sensitivity of the instrument to how you personally like to play. It’s a little like how the second string on my Gretsch rings out more than the second string on my Strat, so I have to adjust my playing. But with MIDI instruments, you can make a lot of adjustments within the instrument before you even hit ‘record’. EDIT: Ha! Tbone81 beat me to it.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 15, 2020 21:51:18 GMT -6
In most VI's there's a setting to change the velocity curve from linear to log, so from a straight line to exponential. I find there's a different sweet spot for every instrument. And at least in Logic, you can do this behind the scenes (in the ‘Environment’) for any given MIDI input. I imagine most DAWs can do something like that. I still might tweak things a little for a particular software instrument or sample pack, but at least in my case, the broad character of one of my old keyboards was just wack. It topped out at like 106 vel no matter how hard you hit it. So I redrew the curve to make it at least usable.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 15, 2020 22:25:56 GMT -6
In most VI's there's a setting to change the velocity curve from linear to log, so from a straight line to exponential. I find there's a different sweet spot for every instrument. And at least in Logic, you can do this behind the scenes (in the ‘Environment’) for any given MIDI input. I imagine most DAWs can do something like that. I still might tweak things a little for a particular software instrument or sample pack, but at least in my case, the broad character of one of my old keyboards was just wack. It topped out at like 106 vel no matter how hard you hit it. So I redrew the curve to make it at least usable. It’s so weird. I get great sensitivity from light touch, but there’s hardly any definition from like 100-127. It’s like soft soft somewhat medium to thwack thwack. I’ve played with my keyboard and maschine velocity curves, but I guess I just need to sit down and really figure out maybe the bottom and top limits - or I need to really revisit the curves.
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Post by notneeson on Jun 15, 2020 22:37:15 GMT -6
So - the biggest thing I find that continues to be weird for me with fake piano or drums, etc. is the range of velocities. I always tend to find myself going into the track and adjusting hits - compressing velocities seems to always be a thing. It’s weird that the thought has been there wasn’t enough touch sensitivity forever and now it feels like it’s too much. I can’t ever seem to get velocity control right. It very well might be that it’s my playing - and General un-knowledge...but that’s why this place is here, right? Yes, totally feel this. Have often thought there should be a velocity compressor function. In Reason you can kind of zoom in just right so that you can then easily select only the outlier (hardest) hits and then globally adjust downward. But I never found a great to isolate the hits that are way too soft without going in one by one.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 15, 2020 22:44:24 GMT -6
And at least in Logic, you can do this behind the scenes (in the ‘Environment’) for any given MIDI input. I imagine most DAWs can do something like that. I still might tweak things a little for a particular software instrument or sample pack, but at least in my case, the broad character of one of my old keyboards was just wack. It topped out at like 106 vel no matter how hard you hit it. So I redrew the curve to make it at least usable. It’s so weird. I get great sensitivity from light touch, but there’s hardly any definition from like 100-127. It’s like soft soft somewhat medium to thwack thwack. I’ve played with my keyboard and maschine velocity curves, but I guess I just need to sit down and really figure out maybe the bottom and top limits - or I need to really revisit the curves. Gotcha - so it's really playable until 100-ish, and then it just hits 127 waaaay too quick after that? If so, maybe just redrawing that part of the curve would help? You could sort of "flatten the curve" (in the parlance of our times) from 100-120 or so, and then maybe only have the very hardest hits you could ever dream of be at 127? Something like that could help. In Superior Drummer world, I rarely end up liking the 127 hits anyway, so it's not out of the question to just have your keyboard (or e-kit) stop at like 118 or 120. And there's rarely a better way to get a piano sample set to sound more intimate and darker than limiting which velocities you even have access to.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 15, 2020 22:48:31 GMT -6
So - the biggest thing I find that continues to be weird for me with fake piano or drums, etc. is the range of velocities. I always tend to find myself going into the track and adjusting hits - compressing velocities seems to always be a thing. It’s weird that the thought has been there wasn’t enough touch sensitivity forever and now it feels like it’s too much. I can’t ever seem to get velocity control right. It very well might be that it’s my playing - and General un-knowledge...but that’s why this place is here, right? Yes, totally feel this. Have often thought there should be a velocity compressor function. In Reason you can kind of zoom in just right so that you can then easily select only the outlier (hardest) hits and then globally adjust downward. But I never found a great to isolate the hits that are way too soft without going in one by one. You're a Pro Tools user, aren't you, notneeson? Surely Pro Tools has some sort of MIDI Transformer where you can draw custom velocity curves? I would be surprised if it doesn't...
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Post by popmann on Jun 15, 2020 22:58:51 GMT -6
Because you're changing sounds. You can't reliably divorce the performance from the instrument. What's being pointed out above...is people telling you how to tune the velocity response of your keyboard controller to a specific VI. What you're talking about is the result of switch sounds after the fact. Otherwise you have a static velocity (and actually the time domain factors in here too) and you're pointing it at different sounds, which have different responses to the range of velocity and different time domain edit points...so, one piano might be immediately triggered and the next has a few milliseconds of note onset delay because that's how pianos work...and also how they work--that time domain changes OVER the velocity range. You smack a piano, the hammer gets there sooner than if you lightly brush a note. While this isn't a TON of difference by scale--it's for EVERY note--and add to that the PPQN rounding of EVERY note when you record MIDI...point is--all of it easy to adapt to as a player. You don't really even THINK about it--by a few chords in you've adjusted to how an instrument responds. But, if you now record that MIDI--and point it to another instrument that responds differently...in combination with that PPQN rounding--that's just NOT WHAT I PLAYED. Meaning it's not part of the feedback loop between player and instrument. It's now just the same notes somewhere roughly at the same time. But, since you're gonna do it anyway... You're better off adapting the instrument's internal RESPONSE to velocity so at least you can go BACK....because also that's the problem--that the MIDI remains static and the instrument response changes. And I don't generally mean the tuning they're talking about with straight velocity curves--many have a "More/less dynamic" for that reason. Keyscape for example has it. Galaxy Vintage D. Ivory. They sometimes call it "dynamics"--combination with a "soft/hard" in Galaxy...usually the far right hand knob on the main Keyscape page...one way makes it respond 1:1 to incoming velocity like an actual piano or drum kit...as you dial it back it responds less--in some combination of the sound/sample switching AND level...like Keyscape still responds to switching but the LEVEL of the notes is more the same. If you just change the MIDI note velocities….it will just sound like you're beating the piano....where what you want is to combination just downplay the dynamics. People think I'm crazy that I record audio of a software instruments as I play them....but, if you start listening the REASONS that you wouldn't do that...it's a list of stuff that really kinda half works. Meanwhile the audio literally IS what I was hearing as I was playing--always...if it sucks, I'm 100% to blame for that.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 15, 2020 23:10:26 GMT -6
[...] You're better off adapting the instrument's internal RESPONSE to velocity so at least you can go BACK....because also that's the problem--that the MIDI remains static and the instrument response changes. And I don't generally mean the tuning they're talking about with straight velocity curves--many have a "More/less dynamic" for that reason. Keyscape for example has it. Galaxy Vintage D. Ivory. They sometimes call it "dynamics"--combination with a "soft/hard" in Galaxy...usually the far right hand knob on the main Keyscape page...one way makes it respond 1:1 to incoming velocity like an actual piano or drum kit...as you dial it back it responds less--in some combination of the sound/sample switching AND level...like Keyscape still responds to switching but the LEVEL of the notes is more the same. If you just change the MIDI note velocities….it will just sound like you're beating the piano....where what you want is to combination just downplay the dynamics. People think I'm crazy that I record audio of a software instruments as I play them....but, if you start listening the REASONS that you wouldn't do that...it's a list of stuff that really kinda half works. Meanwhile the audio literally IS what I was hearing as I was playing--always...if it sucks, I'm 100% to blame for that. This is certainly true: you're best off playing the VI that you're going to be using in the final mix, regardless of anything else. And I for one don't think you're crazy, Jamie, for recording the audio as you play a VI. I did that for years, and should probably go back to doing it more. In my case cited above, I had a wonky keyboard that literally would not put out any MIDI velocities above 106. Period. Drawing a corrective curve on the MIDI input where that keyboard lived largely fixed the problem, at the expense of somewhat increased sample switching/sensitivity in mid velocities. But I could adjust to it as a player and regain full use of all samples in a piano VI, for instance. There is nothing like playing a real piano. There's so much more biofeedback going on with how hard one has to strike the keys on one instrument vs. another.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 15, 2020 23:21:24 GMT -6
Popmann with the good call. But holy shit I had to put my smart pants on to translate.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 15, 2020 23:22:59 GMT -6
If I could play like a real player, I’d just have a nord and record audio...but alas, I need the midis.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 15, 2020 23:23:40 GMT -6
That being said...I’m about to buy a Nord and be done with it.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 16, 2020 0:01:30 GMT -6
That being said...I’m about to buy a Nord and be done with it. Just to warn you in advance: I have a Nord, and as great as it is, it doesn't touch the best plugin sample sets. I have an Electro 5HP. The Nord Piano is better than the Electro, but still, the best plugins (Keyscape, Ivory, etc.) just have way more information to draw from.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 16, 2020 8:17:25 GMT -6
That being said...I’m about to buy a Nord and be done with it. Just to warn you in advance: I have a Nord, and as great as it is, it doesn't touch the best plugin sample sets. I have an Electro 5HP. The Nord Piano is better than the Electro, but still, the best plugins (Keyscape, Ivory, etc.) just have way more information to draw from. +1 to that. I have a Nord Electro, its great. Not quite as good as the Nord Stage (which is a whole level cooler). BUT, I think the Nords real strength lies in the face that its a great instrument to play live and/or gig with and that its super easy to use and takes almost no time to figure it out. As far as sound goes there are better VI's for piano, probably for e piano too. But if you're not going for something super authentic I've found that you can some great, unique, sounds from the Nord by running into a guitar amp and/or driving into mild distortion with a nice tube pre and shit tons of compression.
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Post by donr on Jun 16, 2020 8:30:59 GMT -6
So - the biggest thing I find that continues to be weird for me with fake piano or drums, etc. is the range of velocities. I always tend to find myself going into the track and adjusting hits - compressing velocities seems to always be a thing. It’s weird that the thought has been there wasn’t enough touch sensitivity forever and now it feels like it’s too much. I can’t ever seem to get velocity control right. It very well might be that it’s my playing - and General un-knowledge...but that’s why this place is here, right? Yes, totally feel this. Have often thought there should be a velocity compressor function. In Reason you can kind of zoom in just right so that you can then easily select only the outlier (hardest) hits and then globally adjust downward. But I never found a great to isolate the hits that are way too soft without going in one by one. A midi velocity "compressor" is an awesome idea. It could even have an GUI. Threshold slider, and makeup gain. Attack slider. It should also be an expander too, typically midi velocity data is too loud, is the problem. VI drums sound better to me with velocities scaled back from every hit pounded.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 16, 2020 8:53:02 GMT -6
Yes, totally feel this. Have often thought there should be a velocity compressor function. In Reason you can kind of zoom in just right so that you can then easily select only the outlier (hardest) hits and then globally adjust downward. But I never found a great to isolate the hits that are way too soft without going in one by one. A midi velocity "compressor" is an awesome idea. It could even have an GUI. Threshold slider, and makeup gain. Attack slider. It should also be an expander too, typically midi velocity data is too loud, is the problem. VI drums sound better to me with velocities scaled back from every hit pounded. I suggested this to the Sound Forge guys, AVID and others 25 years ago and they looked at me like I was on crack!
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Post by damoongo on Jun 16, 2020 8:54:14 GMT -6
Cubase / Nuendo has a built in velocity compress/expand function. (Goes by %...). Works wonders for evening things out quickly without having to draw iit in.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 16, 2020 8:57:23 GMT -6
When working with MIDI over the years I found at some point the best results often require you to bring it out as audio and process the crap out of it then print it as audio. The trick is to leave the original MIDI track so you can easily edit it in the future.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 16, 2020 8:58:05 GMT -6
I know that Steven Slate Drums has a midi range function, in addition to velocity curve, that works similar to midi compression. You can set the upper and lower limits of your velocity so for example instead of 0-127 you move it to 60-100. It's a great feature. Probably a lot of other VI's have that too, I'm just not familiar with tons of VI's.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 16, 2020 9:17:05 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Jun 16, 2020 9:46:15 GMT -6
Popmann with the good call. But holy shit I had to put my smart pants on to translate. So, I'm on brand? Re:Nord….unfortunately, here's the truth (um, as I see it)...you have started with the best digital keyboard instruments available. Nords (and frankly the Kronos is still better IMO ten years in)--serve a different market. I used to think the embedded systems (what they technically are) were just "behind the curve" when I moved to software emulations like 20 years ago. But, if you buy a $4k Nord Organ, I PROMISE you that the IK Organ....B5...even the LogicX organ are better emulations. That just has the PLAYER component--meaning all the 1:1 controls that allow someone who plays an organ to more comfortably use digital. However...you're always talking about buying a new Mac...make sure you have a low latency Thunderbolt (second) interface for the old MacMini, and it will be a better "MIDI module" than anything you can buy at retail. Hook it up analog to the new box. That state of affairs saddens me--I grew up buying newer keyboards because the pianos....the EPs...the strings...later the organs...got better with every generation. Well--that stopped about 20 years ago. If you take a S90ES from then and a CP4 from now--the difference is NUANCED. I am forever hopeful--I went locally to play one of those new Nord Grands. Kawai keybed...Nord piano library...certainly that will be great...nope. But, then I've had people buy Kronos and HATE them playing live...because they have realistic pianos--not "this sounds like a record mono-ized through the PA" pianos. Anyway--hardware digital keys are marketed and made for live players--not studio work. I know that there are a lot of people who make the assumption that a $3000 digital piano will sound more realistic than a piece of $99 software. On some level it makes sense. It SHOULD. But, they're wrong.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 16, 2020 11:28:05 GMT -6
Popmann with the good call. But holy shit I had to put my smart pants on to translate. So, I'm on brand? Re:Nord….unfortunately, here's the truth (um, as I see it)...you have started with the best digital keyboard instruments available. Nords (and frankly the Kronos is still better IMO ten years in)--serve a different market. I used to think the embedded systems (what they technically are) were just "behind the curve" when I moved to software emulations like 20 years ago. But, if you buy a $4k Nord Organ, I PROMISE you that the IK Organ....B5...even the LogicX organ are better emulations. That just has the PLAYER component--meaning all the 1:1 controls that allow someone who plays an organ to more comfortably use digital. However...you're always talking about buying a new Mac...make sure you have a low latency Thunderbolt (second) interface for the old MacMini, and it will be a better "MIDI module" than anything you can buy at retail. Hook it up analog to the new box. That state of affairs saddens me--I grew up buying newer keyboards because the pianos....the EPs...the strings...later the organs...got better with every generation. Well--that stopped about 20 years ago. If you take a S90ES from then and a CP4 from now--the difference is NUANCED. I am forever hopeful--I went locally to play one of those new Nord Grands. Kawai keybed...Nord piano library...certainly that will be great...nope. But, then I've had people buy Kronos and HATE them playing live...because they have realistic pianos--not "this sounds like a record mono-ized through the PA" pianos. Anyway--hardware digital keys are marketed and made for live players--not studio work. I know that there are a lot of people who make the assumption that a $3000 digital piano will sound more realistic than a piece of $99 software. On some level it makes sense. It SHOULD. But, they're wrong. That's a great idea using the old MM and just recording analog.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 16, 2020 11:30:19 GMT -6
Also - I have a feeling that real keyboard players would be just fine with the cheap Keystation 88 I have - e.g. a great guitar player will sound great on a Squier. But am I not doing myself any favors with the Keystation? I haven't shopped for a new midi controller in a decade and a half...I'm sure there are much better ones out there. Has velocity control on these come a long way? Can I buy a $200 midi controller that would be better than the KS88? Or is the problem just my playing?
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Post by popmann on Jun 16, 2020 11:55:42 GMT -6
While velocity response varies unit to unit it's a complex interaction thing between the feel of the board and then the sound sources' response, yes---If you put a VPC1 there, and change nothing else, yes--your piano sounds will magically "sound better". And it will feel more like playing a real piano for anyone beginner to master. But, like the reason I have always shied away from those type units--is that if you want to tap some drums? Play synths? Organ? Terrible. Sluggish. Pianos do NOT have a fast action, grand scheme of keyboards. So, I've always bought the middle ground. Weighted 88s that are enough like a piano I can deal but ALSO respond quick enough to play organ or synths or something.
But, it's not that velocity response has "come far". You can probably get one of those old A80s or that big Peavey overbuilt thing from 30 years ago and be in the VPC1 ballpark---it maps largely to build quality. Thus money. I feel like the VPC units actually have hammer that hit pads that detect velocity...along with some key throw sensor. Point being--it's basically an actual piano action--not a key with a weight at the other end to sort of feel like it's moving a hammer...
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