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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 16:19:56 GMT -6
Bandcamp is way better than streaming for most independent artists ime. Even better yet is just selling physical copies on there or using it as a limited preview for a physical copy depending on the genre.
I did the math a while ago. I would make more from a few guys have to buy my very limited release stuff to rip and share my stuff than Spotify legally sharing my stuff. They would mostly be sharing it for download. Those people who download music illegally are much more likely to buy a copy than people who stream music legally. They want to own it in some capacity. They might buy the real physical thing to have it, especially for metal with all the nice art and having a backup copy when their hard drive kicks the bucket.
I found Mercyful Fate through MP3s around the year 2000 or 2001. I have bought every digital and half the vinyl versions of their first two albums since then. I now own only the two from the vaults of the 90s remasters because I sold my lps and slimline copies to some sucker who wanted like 40-50 for the good vinyl copies and 80 for the 80s CDs. I will buy the new CDs. Of course no modern music can come close to that. There’s no incentive to.
Someone who streams music is already psychologically disinterested in all of that. They are already disinclined to pay me. I could get more money from fixing the low end on a demo than I ever would from Spotify. 2 or so billable hours of low budget mastering of a demo pays more than most of my clients will ever earn steaming. Flipping records on discogs, undercutting everybody for a reasonable condition used copy pays more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 16:51:37 GMT -6
I find the flaw with bandcamp is they do not allow the user to stream 30 second track previews, it's either stream the whole release for free making it easy for anyone to download the files for free or you pay them more money per month and pick which individual full songs you want to be previewed from each release.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 4, 2020 17:01:03 GMT -6
It would kind of piss me off if someone was doing 10-30 second streams of theirs songs, but that's just me, I wouldn't want to buy anything from that artist.
Mercyful Fate is great.
I think using our skills "around" music can be profitable like tomegatherion said. I'm going to try to promote my gear manufacturing business more and see how that goes. And who knows, maybe a few compatible people will find my music in the fray of it all. That will never stop.
Studio recording is just not for me, but I personally think I could find mix work. I just have no idea how to reach people about that stuff. Most people "know a guy" or just want to DIY it. I don't know if the discussion can be opened up here or not, but I'm curious about other artists' income streams related to music and everything we do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 17:13:08 GMT -6
i know what you mean but back in the earlier days when i tried bandcamp the releases were instantly on the main pages of google advertising endless file sharing sites where to download the releases. Maybe that's all died down these days with the dawn of streaming.
I have known quite a few people who have successfully sold physical copies through bandcamp.
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Post by donr on Jun 5, 2020 23:18:44 GMT -6
I find the flaw with bandcamp is they do not allow the user to stream 30 second track previews, it's either stream the whole release for free making it easy for anyone to download the files for free or you pay them more money per month and pick which individual full songs you want to be previewed from each release. Do consumers hijack tunes from startup independent artists like they do with big sellers? Bum. I like to buy stuff from unknown artists I just stumble across.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 7, 2020 9:11:11 GMT -6
I know some of you might think I’m crazy, but streaming services are your friend. Keeping your music off Spotify and Apple Music isn’t going to help your cause.
Get your music on the digital platforms, then use a playlisting service to get your music on playlists with similar artists. It’s really the only way to get new listens with the current situation of not being able to play shows (here anyway)
At that point you need to have a website setup with cds, vinyl, tshirts, etc etc etc with an EASY checkout system on the front page for people to give you money. Livestream a show once a week for an hour on instagram. Live-streams pop up first for your followers on their “stories” which is what people generally click on first. You can see what people are writing to you and interact with them. That’s what fans want. Personal interaction and then the easiest way possible to listen to the music - Like a link to a Spotify playlist that you’ve made of your 5 most well received songs. Links to YouTube videos, etc.
You’ve got to make it as easy as possible on as many platforms available to you, because the general public is lazy and they aren’t going to dig for your music. If There is the slightest little difficulty in making a purchase you’ll lose out.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 7, 2020 9:35:55 GMT -6
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 7, 2020 18:32:09 GMT -6
You know - I don’t handle that aspect of things so I called my buddy that I play with who does handle it. I always thought he had a pr person that got him on playlists but apparently it was way more organic than that - somebody heard one of his tunes someplace and liked it and put it on their playlist that gets tons of listens.
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Post by wiz on Jun 7, 2020 20:05:16 GMT -6
Well, I am sort of getting into this...
The Facebook Ads, have been working well, I am slowly building a mailing list.
I am planning some things, and I am quite energised.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mike on Jun 12, 2020 10:15:13 GMT -6
The way I see it is, though more Music is being consumed than ever, it has been devalued as a commodity and Social media and streaming sites are exposure platforms for 99% of musicians, not monetization ones as we look for new ways to raise the value of our art and monetization in today's culture. To me, current streaming sites are the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" middle men who took the old place of labels for distribution, that Indie's need to cut out of the middle to be sustainable again.
I agree with Monkeyxx when it comes to not paying Facebook anything,...unless your goal is exposure and a few more followers,.. but paying them to translate your AD cost into direct record sales benefits Facebook and Zuckerburg more than it ever will the musician trying to monetize his art from there with sustainability because FB is an a exposure site (for their monetization) not a monetizing site for musicians IMO. Using FB for exposure to engage them as a step one to gain emails or links to a page where you're selling more than a direct downloads may be a different story depending on how well you've set up the experience/product you're selling in step 2 on that page. I also don't trust FB AD"Reach" numbers they tell me, and how "Reach" is defined. If I'm FB trying to convince you to buy ad's, am I not better off selling/telling you that you will reach thousands when the reality of the real time long enough to consume promo/product exposure may be less than that, with no one to hold them accountable to actual reach numbers ? I see both Facebook/Social media and streaming sites for 99.9 % of musicians as exposure sites and little more.
And I agree with Dr. Bill's quote of > "I think the old paradigm is dead. Selling "records", downloads or whatever is looking to the past and trying to make it work. And it's not likely to work from my perspective. Several people have suggested Patreon to me."
I have been wondering about Patreon for awhile but have yet to take the time to explore its platform model. Does anyone here have experience with the pros and cons of it ?
It seems to me the only ones doing successful Indie financial support of their art these days (beyond touring when that's allowed to happen again) are ones that seek to find develop and engage with a super dedicated fans of their art willing to pay, more than doing the typical old model of create your music/art, put promo material out on popular platforms to generic consumers from the distance of your space hoping a percentage will buy. Because as the general consumer comes across your promo in a news/ad feed in a sea of other white noise of ads clamoring for their limited attention span that includes periodic music/video for free competing against you is why I think turning those exposure streams into monetization results are the small numbers they are from those places directly. Using those platforms as a means to invite them to your place of something more and uniquely you seems to be a way that is working for some.
As for the future, My thought starts with remembering the past when record distribution could only be done through the middle man of the labels shifted to the next stage where everyone could distribute world wide with digital downloads from indie platforms thereby cutting out the middle man and giving power and more money to the artist...evolving now to the next stage where consumers moved largely towards no longer paying for CD's or downloads, but instead paying a monthly fee to streaming sites (who have become the new middle man) collecting the lions share of the money, greatly reducing the payout to the content creators that indie's have to somehow reclaim their power and monetization from if sustainability through your art is the goal....... to me, if more than exposure is your goal, it seems to me a Indie artist is better off limiting to putting just a few songs or trailer of material available on streaming sites treating them like facebook, an exposure site without giving it all away for free pointing the consumer back to your exclusive music/art site where you have a better shot of monetizing them for exclusive content is the only way I can see at the moment, while searching for the next step.......
......Where my thought goes along the lines of, as the costs of technology and platforms evolve is if a new auto app maker for dummies in general or a Indie distribution platform came along that offered to auto generate your band's app that you could promote and sell subscriptions from while finding, developing and engaging regularly Super fans that buy your exclusive music/art and experience directly through you (a content/experience they can't get from any other generic middle man platform site,) ... could be a way to draw, create and sustain some real fans of your art back from streaming/social media exposure sites (where they consume what they perceive as disposable content for free). By instead offering them a better real and perceived value experience they can only get through you and your subscription app/site
FWIW and sorry for my inability to be concise, it is one of my many flaws.
Mike
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 14, 2020 13:48:00 GMT -6
Since people get everything they want for a $10 streaming subscription, they don't understand why anyone would pay for music. Streaming should simply give artists a proper percentage for using their work. Basically, we're fucked. Your album cost you the time to write it, record it, engineer it, mix it, master it and post it. That's a lot and we're not even mentioning the years it took to gain the skills to do that. We simply can't rely of music sales anymore. the only way out is through publishing, and that's a fairly dead end itself, unless you're writing hit tunes for pop stars or movie soundtracks.
That's what I found out when I wrote my first marketing plan. It's a dead digital listen path users want to listen for near free. I talked to my Sony contact about it, and she said the real numbers are awful for all artists.
I regularly check how more famous artist generate income, if they are not touring. Jack White for example sells guitar strings/pedals in conjunction with DAddario.
I read a few books about online music marketing and all I have to say:
To me it sounds like there is no answer. IMO a few made it on the internet but this seems to be a rare exception to the rule. Millions want to sell their music now online, on Instagram you can see kids playing on guitars out of tune, and they get hundreds of likes but in the end of the day, those platforms are crowded.
They now have a billion users....
How many milliseconds do I have to get some attention ONE?
I know one artist who is doing techno who has 20k followers, and he can use this for gigs and selling other stuff. But he is not making real income by streams. NADA...
The point to me is. Sure a real marketing strategy can help, and most of us don't have one.
Most of us don't have any consistent corporate design, something that Jack White is doing very well. You can spot his label third man records three miles away.
Having a great online marketing strategy won't hurt. I said that in the last topic about online marketing, you need professionals in ONLINE-PR for this, and those people want to see money.
Sure You can try to make it online but its still like playing the lottery....
Online killed the traditional music business....it's a fact to me.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 14, 2020 16:50:33 GMT -6
The biggest realistic payoff for me is... Helping to lift the Spirits, of other people. Taking their mind, off their Troubles. Especially now.
Musical Fellowship, is another positive. Chris
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 14, 2020 18:39:38 GMT -6
The biggest realistic payoff for me is... Helping to lift the Spirits, of other people. Taking their mind, off their Troubles. Especially now. Musical Fellowship, is another positive. Chris Absolutely, 100% YES. ...but it’s also nice to be able to pay one’s mortgage.
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Post by wiz on Jun 14, 2020 18:44:58 GMT -6
The biggest realistic payoff for me is... Helping to lift the Spirits, of other people. Taking their mind, off their Troubles. Especially now. Musical Fellowship, is another positive. Chris I was just telling this story..... I got an email a while back, after my Tiny Moments album came out.... from a fan. Saying how the album "Literally saved her life...." that it helped her through a suicidal period. She came to a show, and threw her arms around me..... it was a truly beautiful moment. Its not the first contact I have had like that.. I must keep that in mind... Art is there to improve others lives... not just MY bank balance... Cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Jun 14, 2020 18:49:15 GMT -6
Well so far I have seen extremely positive results from the Facebook marketing campaign.
The cost vs exposure has been far better than I expected. I think its good value atm as a promotional expenditure.
I also did a segment on radio here in OZ, on the ABC which is the national broadcaster.. .though I think the segment only extends a few hundred miles in circumference..... I prerecorded a live performance in my studio, and they played that, then the single "Guitar Strings Pen Paper". Was really positively received.
So that's great as well.
I think the thing for me to do , is shift my focus from being so heavily bottom lined ,... to one of connection and quality and artistic truth (not that I have ever not been who I am) and target the correct demographic... and gain joy from sharing what I do with those who enjoy it... if the money comes, it comes...
This process has been a sort of artistic watershed for me, and I am grateful for the advice and support I have recieved here.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 14, 2020 19:00:11 GMT -6
mike I thought that was a great post. I had one main area where I disagreed, though, and it’s an important modifier: I don’t think people are consuming more music than ever before, and it seems to me that that’s part of the problem for our industry. It seems to me it’s a common thing to say more music is being consumed then ever, but I just don’t believe that. Fundamentally. There are more competitive entertainment avenues and alternatives than there have ever been, and those have dramatically encroached upon music listening, at least as I see it. I’m not sure what kind of real numbers we would need to see to prove/disprove this, so anything I say will necessarily be anecdotal, but even 10 yrs ago, I knew very few people who listened to podcasts every day, but now I’m continually surprised at how many people tell me they never listen to music, only podcasts. This is in the car, at the gym, while making dinner, etc. The proliferation of ubiquitous video has also gutted the music industry, I believe — though again, I have no hard numbers to prove that, and I’m not sure what kind of numbers it would even take to prove it. But I do think the ease of video-on-demand (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime Video) — not to mention YouTube — have dramatically changed the entertainment marketplace. There’s a lot more competition for the attention of eyeballs and eardrums than just music these days.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 14, 2020 19:13:55 GMT -6
Certainly the people I know in life are less involved with music than ever before in my lifetime. It has been a weird transition to live through. Kind of alarming and perplexing, but I guess at this point you just accept it and keep making noise.
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Post by reddirt on Jun 14, 2020 22:41:22 GMT -6
Well so far I have seen extremely positive results from the Facebook marketing campaign. The cost vs exposure has been far better than I expected. I think its good value atm as a promotional expenditure. I also did a segment on radio here in OZ, on the ABC which is the national broadcaster.. .though I think the segment only extends a few hundred miles in circumference..... I prerecorded a live performance in my studio, and they played that, then the single "Guitar Strings Pen Paper". Was really positively received. So that's great as well. I think the thing for me to do , is shift my focus from being so heavily bottom lined ,... to one of connection and quality and artistic truth (not that I have ever not been who I am) and target the correct demographic... and gain joy from sharing what I do with those who enjoy it... if the money comes, it comes... This process has been a sort of artistic watershed for me, and I am grateful for the advice and support I have recieved here. Cheers Wiz If there's one thing to come out of this pandemic for me it's the reminder that if I can see past needing money , it's the real need to connect with others and help to remind them what is truly important in life.
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Post by reddirt on Jun 14, 2020 22:53:27 GMT -6
Sorry - blew that post ; but to continue - beautifully put Wiz; at the end of the day no matter how hard it seems right now , the bank balance is not where it's truly at. Reminding others what's important is not some didactic exercise of course but something felt through our expression and even if we only touch one we've contributed meaningfully. That is the pay off and there is where we should all head to improve this global society. It's the gift that keeps giving to both receiver and giver. Cheers, Ross
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Post by mike on Jun 14, 2020 22:57:41 GMT -6
mike I thought that was a great post. I had one main area where I disagreed, though, and it’s an important modifier: I don’t think people are consuming more music than ever before, and it seems to me that that’s part of the problem for our industry. It seems to me it’s a common thing to say more music is being consumed then ever, but I just don’t believe that. Fundamentally.
Thanks for your post Mark, and I agree that as our culture has evolved, there are more choices and greater competition for music than before in how consumers choose to spend their time. Yet music is more than holding its own and has seen large growth the last five years. While my point of emphasis to my earlier post phrase ( “though more Music is being consumed than ever, it has been devalued as a commodity”) was focusing on the devaluation of it in our culture despite the large consumption I meant in general, you are right on the technical numbers though it’s getting closer to the all time high again as your thought led me to read up a little more on actual consumption numbers and here is what I found. RIAA U.S. Recorded Music Revenues by All Format numbers has increased each year from 6.7 Billion in 2015 to 11.1Billion in 2019 on pace to be 12b by the end of this year and match the all time high (of 14.8B of 1999) by around 2022. www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
World consumption numbers from the IFPI follow a similar trend with large increases over the last 5 years trending towards 1999’s all time peak in a couple years also. The IFPI also notes that In 2019, 27% of respondents to its survey reported using copyright infringement (not paid for) as a way to listen to or obtain music in the past month which is always hard to calculate how much to add in overall actual consumption numbers when not tracked/paid for, along with other examples of music being increasingly consumed via video sources through social media where it is not all tracked as consumption stream revenue data even though it's being consumed.
Looking at the huge growth of streaming subscriptions on the chart link above trending upward, displays what we already knew where the money is and going, which still leads me to wonder when will a indie platform be willing to do some version of hosting indie streaming content, take their 10-20% and pay the rest direct to content creator’s cutting out the Spotify’s/middle men of today leaving it up to the artists to solicit their base with a much greater incentive than they have now.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 14, 2020 23:32:39 GMT -6
mike I thought that was a great post. I had one main area where I disagreed, though, and it’s an important modifier: I don’t think people are consuming more music than ever before, and it seems to me that that’s part of the problem for our industry. It seems to me it’s a common thing to say more music is being consumed then ever, but I just don’t believe that. Fundamentally.
Thanks for your post Mark, and I agree that as our culture has evolved, there are more choices and greater competition for music than before in how consumers choose to spend their time. Yet music is more than holding its own and has seen large growth the last five years. While my point of emphasis to my earlier post phrase ( “though more Music is being consumed than ever, it has been devalued as a commodity”) was focusing on the devaluation of it in our culture despite the large consumption I meant in general, you are right on the technical numbers though it’s getting closer to the all time high again as your thought led me to read up a little more on actual consumption numbers and here is what I found. RIAA U.S. Recorded Music Revenues by All Format numbers has increased each year from 6.7 Billion in 2015 to 11.1Billion in 2019 on pace to be 12b by the end of this year and match the all time high (of 14.8B of 1999) by around 2022. www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
World consumption numbers from the IFPI follow a similar trend with large increases over the last 5 years trending towards 1999’s all time peak in a couple years also. The IFPI also notes that In 2019, 27% of respondents to its survey reported using copyright infringement (not paid for) as a way to listen to or obtain music in the past month which is always hard to calculate how much to add in overall actual consumption numbers when not tracked/paid for, along with other examples of music being increasingly consumed via video sources through social media where it is not all tracked as consumption stream revenue data even though it's being consumed.
Looking at the huge growth of streaming subscriptions on the chart link above trending upward, displays what we already knew where the money is and going, which still leads me to wonder when will a indie platform be willing to do some version of hosting indie streaming content, take their 10-20% and pay the rest direct to content creator’s cutting out the Spotify’s/middle men of today leaving it up to the artists to solicit their base with a much greater incentive than they have now.
This is awesome, Mike. I don't have time to read it carefully at the moment (it's late here in EDT), but I'm definitely going to read it tomorrow. Thanks so much for putting it together.
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Post by mike on Jun 14, 2020 23:52:24 GMT -6
I think the thing for me to do , is shift my focus from being so heavily bottom lined ,... to one of connection and quality and artistic truth (not that I have ever not been who I am) and target the correct demographic... and gain joy from sharing what I do with those who enjoy it... if the money comes, it comes...
Like your songs and input I also appreciate, well said Wiz. Thanks for sharing Mike
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 15, 2020 16:21:25 GMT -6
If we could limit the discussion, to people who are actually doing this themselves, rather than generic advice, that would be greatly appreciated. I have seen my sales dwindle over the years, to a near standstill. What strategies have you successfully implemented, regards selling your music online? Are you actually generating income? What sort of income, are you covering your costs of making the product? I have gotten to the point of where I do everything myself. I mean EVERYTHING. My latest single release a week ago, has sold a whopping 3 copies. They were direct sales from my website.. where I posted the full length of the song available for preview. Its for sale for 1.99 AUD, with the option to pay whatever you want above that. 2 people paid 4.99 and 1 paid 1.99. I then (after talking to a friend who had just done the following) Spent $27.50 on Facebook Boosting the post about the tune, first of all to Europe, for a couple of days, and then to England specifically. The targeted audience, was male and female 35-65 who had an interest in Country Music, and Mark Knopfler (as I thought the guitar playing I had down was close to that style of music and there was a chance if you liked that you would like my song). It still has a couple of days to go, and I might switch the audience to North America for the last couple of days, though with the troubles there might not be the best idea. the $27.50 bought me 3400 people reached. 495 engagements (whatever that is). 12 clicks on the link that plays the song. 10 clicks on my photo. and 2 comments. No sales. I also got a few page likes. So summarise. $27.50 bought me infront of 3400 people. 500 of which did something. 12 went to the song. 10 clicked on my photo. No one bought the song. So obviously its unsustainable. Even though the song has cost me nothing to produce. Now I think audience targeting is probably the key. Getting the song infront of people who are willing to buy it. How is everyone managing this stuff. what sort of stats are you seeing against your investment? cheers Wiz Congratulations on your successful Facebook sales campaign.
And I'm only being half facetious.
I've found FB to be utterly useless for actually selling things, getting people to actually show up for gigs, etc.
FB is fairly good at generating page views and likes - things that don't cost people anything like money or more effort than what's required to type on the computer.
You'd probably get better sales posting here.
And I'm going to try to keep an eye on this thread in case somebody comes up with something that actually works!
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Post by chessparov on Jun 15, 2020 18:52:47 GMT -6
Marry a Doctor! Chris
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Post by jakeboy on Jun 17, 2020 18:55:29 GMT -6
I am so in this boat....from 2017 till now, I have released 3 solo albums and 2 collaborations with A.C. Rev. Either way we do EVERYTHING ourselves. I get some sales on Bandcamp some on CD Baby, and I sell 20-30 CDs at the blues jams I attend and on a couple guitar forums where I am a regular member. Streaming fucks us hard and has taken away the ability to monetize music unless you are selling a boatload of streams. I still buy albums on iTunes, Amazon, and Bandcamp cause I like Owning my music that I listen to. I don’t gig regularly anymore...my desire is to record and release music at this point...I have so many songs that must see the light of day..., I do dream and hope that a song will bet picked up by a major label....but no matter, My music will continue to be released cause it is part of me and what I do. Now let this encourage you: I have a friend who is a decent, but not exceptional musician. Good songwriter. He moved to Nashville. Recorded some songs that went nowhere..,,works in a pet crematorium...yet...somehow....one of his songs has gotten significant play time in Sweden! He has no idea how....He periodically gets $75 or so checks from ASCAP as a result. Now that is not much....but it could turn into something big easily enough. Keep the faith and keep the music flowing!
Maybe the retirement home full of aging rockers is the answer....I need to do some gigs there and take some CDs to sell.
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