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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 2, 2020 13:21:29 GMT -6
What would make the most difference is streaming services having a more reasonable payout. That would need to be mandated. Better minds than mine might find a way to create a "minimum wage" payment system for artists.
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Post by teejay on Jun 2, 2020 13:58:09 GMT -6
$27.50 bought me in front of 3400 people. 500 of which did something. 12 went to the song. 10 clicked on my photo. No one bought the song. I've aways thought touring retirement homes could be a success. Music connects with people in transition, so there's potential for strong connections there. Plus that age range paid for music their whole lives, and might not be broke. I want to be cognizant and respectful of Wiz's initial post, but also wanted to comment on this from Christopher if I may. In my experience retirement homes are an untapped resource from several points of view. My main gigs over the years have been churches and community/special events. With the advent of worship bands and the discontinuation of evening services/events, those venues are basically gone. I have spent time (especially around the Christmas holiday season) going to retirement homes. You can pretty much have as many of those gigs as you wish. While yes, residents are a bit of a captive audience, they do have real interest in you, your music, are attentive, and will purchase some product if the facility has alerted them ahead of time to that being available. (And they still have CD players!) Granted, you're not going to get rich doing it, but you will get some real satisfaction connecting with your audience, providing something they normally do not have access to, and knowing your music and passion are appreciated...and that's in large-part why I, and I'm assuming most of you are musicians.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 17:34:10 GMT -6
Make music in genres where the die hard fans still buy physical copies and only the posers and casual fans who aren’t going to buy anything stream. Most people with Spotify subscriptions don’t even have a proper two channel system or a pair of headphones that can’t be powered off an Apple lightning dongle. This might entail rewriting your music but selling 100 physical copies yourself and getting another few hundred into distros is better than streaming revenue.
Wiz, for future releases you might want to bundle those kind of tracks on your Spotify with poppier ones like Dire Straits did themselves. Then market them in the right place, get reviews on some blogs, have. a preview YouTube video, and get a physical release pressed. Vinyl. Indie fans don’t buy CDs like underground rap and metal fans. Maybe some production changes to appeal to indie market to get it into some distributors and only sell the download with a physical copy until the physical copies you have run out. Guys in leather jackets who can’t play aping Darkthrone have a smaller market than you but are outselling you. They have a smaller potential audience but are aiming it at people who buy the music. They can do nothing original, degenerate into pure noise, and still sell a cd a day or so. You’re targeting it at a much broader audience of people who don’t buy music. You have to find an audience who still purchases music, figure out what they want, make it, and sell it to them. Most 45 year olds who like Dire Straits on Facebook probably don’t know any songs but Money for Nothing and Sultans of Swing. Especially those who like modern pop country. You definitely need better marketing. Even if those 3 people paid you 10 each plus shipping for a physical copy with their download, you would have covered the cost of advertising.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 2, 2020 18:05:26 GMT -6
That's funny, I personally know a guy in a leather jacket aping Darkthrone, literally, on the button.
The "black metal" community is very supportive and they sell each other a lot of tapes and stuff.
I agree that specialty music has a more engaging fanbase than generalized genres of music.
I don't think anyone should play something that's not natural to them, but more and more specialty music is appealing to me as a listener.
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Post by wiz on Jun 2, 2020 18:11:40 GMT -6
I have to be who I am For sure.
I just can't ask people for tips. It does not sit right with me. I am struggling with the Patreon thing as well....
Perhaps its a cultural thing.
In any event, that is just not going to happen.
I agree I need better marketing, which is why I am trying what I am.
So, how are you guys targeting.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 2, 2020 18:19:34 GMT -6
I have to be who I am For sure. I just can't ask people for tips. It does not sit right with me. I am struggling with the Patreon thing as well.... Perhaps its a cultural thing. In any event, that is just not going to happen. I feel you, I really do. It feels really slimy and unnatural for me to ask for tips... but...its something we have to collectively get over. It's all how you spin it really. It doesn't have to be a hard sell, "Hey guys, send me some money...thanks". But if you reached out to your fan base and said you were raising funds for XYZ, please contribute, hit the tip jar etc etc it becomes a different thing. You have to find what works for you, what fits your image, story, genre etc, and it should be authentic (not contrived because people can smell that a mile away). I'm sort of preaching to myself here, because these are all things I struggle with too (I think a lot of us do). But outside-of-the-box thinking is the only way to make things really work anymore.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 2, 2020 18:31:11 GMT -6
I agree I need better marketing, which is why I am trying what I am. So, how are you guys targeting. Cheers Wiz From what I'm learning FB is great at targeting really specific audiences. The hard part is you need to do some market research to find what works, what doesn't, and who should and shouldn't be targeted. To do that you need a big sample size. Some strategies that could help: 1) Make two different ads, pitch them to the same demographic groups so you can A/B compare which ad gets more engagement. Video tends to get more clicks than still images. 2) Take those results and start narrowing down your audience. Age, sex, location, musical preferences etc. I would start with people in your own demographic, if you're into your music, people like you should be too. 3) Make it stupid simple for people to buy your product. Every time a customer has to click thru to another page or web address the chances of them continuing down the sales funnel drop exponentially. There needs to be a button they push, front and center, that allows them to purchase. 4) Try selling merch, signed posters, artwork, etc and use the music as a loss leader. 5) Pitch music to blogs and review sites that have lots of traffic. Some blogs have die hard fans that follow everything they review. These tend to be very genre specific IME. - It might take several hundred dollars just to learn who you should be marketing too but it's well worth it in the long run. Hope that helps.
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Post by wiz on Jun 2, 2020 18:37:55 GMT -6
I agree I need better marketing, which is why I am trying what I am. So, how are you guys targeting. Cheers Wiz From what I'm learning FB is great at targeting really specific audiences. The hard part is you need to do some market research to find what works, what doesn't, and who should and shouldn't be targeted. To do that you need a big sample size. Some strategies that could help: 1) Make two different ads, pitch them to the same demographic groups so you can A/B compare which ad gets more engagement. Video tends to get more clicks than still images. 2) Take those results and start narrowing down your audience. Age, sex, location, musical preferences etc. I would start with people in your own demographic, if you're into your music, people like you should be too. 3) Make it stupid simple for people to buy your product. Every time a customer has to click thru to another page or web address the chances of them continuing down the sales funnel drop exponentially. There needs to be a button they push, front and center, that allows them to purchase. 4) Try selling merch, signed posters, artwork, etc and use the music as a loss leader. 5) Pitch music to blogs and review sites that have lots of traffic. Some blogs have die hard fans that follow everything they review. These tend to be very genre specific IME. - It might take several hundred dollars just to learn who you should be marketing too but it's well worth it in the long run. Hope that helps. Thats really great thanks Wiz
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Post by EmRR on Jun 2, 2020 19:38:40 GMT -6
My clients who make money are generally singer songwriters who play wine bars for audiences old enough to still buy CD’s, and sell they do. One with a regional base in infancy has blown through a couple thousand CD’s in that market. Go play a club/bar, no sales at all.
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Post by wiz on Jun 2, 2020 20:50:24 GMT -6
My clients who make money are generally singer songwriters who play wine bars for audiences old enough to still buy CD’s, and sell they do. One with a regional base in infancy has blown through a couple thousand CD’s in that market. Go play a club/bar, no sales at all. I have been doing that for years.... problem is you need to be in a place, that has a changing audience... but it works well when it works. Cheers Wiz
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Post by soundintheround on Jun 3, 2020 9:19:35 GMT -6
I'm just brainstorming here...but...I think digital tipping needs to be included, and become the regular, in our business. Streaming live performances, actual live performances, your website, FB site, IG site etc should all have a clear and easy way for people to contribute to a virtual tip jar. And, we collectively need to get over our reluctance to ask people for money. Speaking for myself this is VERY hard. I detest asking people for money, hate it. But it absolutely holds me back. Yes, there is fine line between asking for money and being straight up annoying to people, but more often than naught we take any excuse to NOT do it and thus remove a potentially good revenue stream. Here's a realistic scenario for some people: A live stream or prerecorded show that's streamed on the web, 1000 viewer's, each donating $.50 cents. That's $500 to the band/artist. That's more than a lot of bands make at normal shows. That's absolutely doable for some people. How about a newsletter to your fan base (assuming you've already done the work to collect a meaningful amount of subscribers) that once a quarter asks people to donate so that you can continue to make music. Again, let's say you have 1000 email subscribers that donate $1 each. That's $4000 a year, which is enough to make a meaningful contribution to many artists who are used to getting paid nothing. And it can be done in a non-douche bag way. Several of my friends did live streaming concerts during the quarantine and have online tip jars. Various services offer that like Paypal and Venmo. Also I think Patreon can be setup that way so that rather than a monthly subscription model, you just pay the artist when they create something. So every time you release a single I'd pay some amount. In fact I thought that's how Patreon works, you sign up to pay like$0.50 or $5 or $50 for every thing that artist creates and posts they get paid. I've watched a few live streams of artists and have donated. Its the one positive I see in music and this covid thing. But tbh, usually the audio quality was terrible and mix was coming over an iphone. If artists could 'formalize' and establish a better means of live-streaming shows in higher quality, probably a decent way to get money online. I'd gladly pay for a subscription service like netflix or 'on-demand' for live shows.... and probably end up seeing about 10-20x the shows I would goto in person, for various reasons.
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Post by soundintheround on Jun 3, 2020 9:23:34 GMT -6
But would be cool to see it more DIY-initiated (or maybe like Venue oriented), because I'm sure media conglomerates would jump on an opportunity like that and take 50%+ in a heartbeat.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2020 9:30:59 GMT -6
I've seen some REALLY high quality audio live music streams from other engineer / musicians, in the past few weeks.
Just watched a Sting one too. Ironically Sting sounded terrible into his U47 million dollar studio. People I know with average gear are beating that kind of quality easily.
However, Sting and Shaggy on Tiny Desk was absolutely brilliant. Proper engineering and mixing. Mostly shotgun mics on the voices.
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Post by christopher on Jun 3, 2020 10:31:06 GMT -6
How do you guys pay online? For me it’s always a hassle, I want to drop a buck often but to do so I have to look up my insanely complicated passwords I’m always changing, switching PayPal ‘preferred method’, or entering in card numbers/addresses. This quarantine we’ve been saving money, it’s too annoying to buy everything online.
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Post by m03 on Jun 3, 2020 10:48:07 GMT -6
I have to look up my insanely complicated passwords I’m always changing Unrelated to anything else in this thread, but you might want to look into using a service/app like DashLane or LastPass.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2020 11:02:36 GMT -6
I primarily use PayPal and direct debit card payments. Pretty straightforward. I do it so much it's second hand. I suppose it's a bit of a learned skill in a way.
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Post by christopher on Jun 3, 2020 11:15:22 GMT -6
Thanks, I figure it’s relevant. I’m that guy at the grocery store angry I have to click “yes” more than once
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2020 11:31:29 GMT -6
Thanks, I figure it’s relevant. I’m that guy at the grocery store angry I have to click “yes” more than once Figuring out the automatic checkout machine is a fun one too. I also have to do that on a regular basis so I know the local one inside out by now. The woman that's usually there when I buy beer is super crotchety, but she seems to like me. I hear her co workers moaning about her constantly, it's kind of hilarious. I guess there's one at every job. She looks like a character from Ren and Stimpy. So I just roll with the punches and act nicely. That's more of an experience than the check out machine, the person with the other machine validating my age.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 3, 2020 11:57:46 GMT -6
Sorry if it seemed I was "raining on anyone's parade"... By getting into that whole TV Show "close call" story, I related. But if it had taken off, I would would have been receiving $3K+ on each episode that ran (plus residuals). I certainly wish all of you success, in your efforts! Chris
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 3, 2020 13:12:15 GMT -6
I have to be who I am For sure. I just can't ask people for tips. It does not sit right with me. I am struggling with the Patreon thing as well.... Perhaps its a cultural thing. In any event, that is just not going to happen. I agree I need better marketing, which is why I am trying what I am. So, how are you guys targeting. Cheers Wiz Understood, man. I don't currently have a Patreon, mostly because it doesn't quite sit right with me, either. I'm willing to accept that much of the disconnect for me may be a generational thing, though. I am a firm Gen Xer, and most of the "new economy" makes little sense to me. I've been surprised at how many younger artists I know just automatically plan to use funding streams like Patreon or Kickstarter for every new album release (who knows if those will even happen anymore).
But I am becoming increasingly persuaded over the past two years or so that the model of having "patrons" may well become normalized. I have a few friends in other fields who support artists via Patreon, and they tell me how much they appreciate having access to the artists beyond just listening to new songs. They seem to really like having a peek "behind the curtain," as it were.
One thing is certain: We have entered a brave new world different than anything our industry has seen. It feels like we say that every 4-5 yrs, but this one is particularly disruptive. Prior to this, an artist could at the very least play live gigs and sell merch. Now that's gone, too.
We're going to have to be creative to survive.
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Post by soundintheround on Jun 3, 2020 13:23:42 GMT -6
How do you guys pay online? For me it’s always a hassle, I want to drop a buck often but to do so I have to look up my insanely complicated passwords I’m always changing, switching PayPal ‘preferred method’, or entering in card numbers/addresses. This quarantine we’ve been saving money, it’s too annoying to buy everything online. I honestly struggle with this too. I have a paypal account I use regularly (for my gear habit)....but it seems all the kids are using venmo these days. Couldn't get mine to work the other night for a live-stream 'donation' type event and felt really old.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 3, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -6
The self-streaming thing, sounds really cool. (I'll have to learn more about it) Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2020 14:03:43 GMT -6
Yeah, that's the chatter I've heard too. 30 and below seem to be on Venmo.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2020 14:07:31 GMT -6
Yeah, that's the chatter I've heard too. 30 and below seem to be on Venmo. ....which is.....paypal......
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2020 14:08:48 GMT -6
Yeah, that's the chatter I've heard too. 30 and below seem to be on Venmo. ....which is.....paypal...... Did not know that, thanks. It is a different app though. I have heard that Venmo has a social media aspect to it also, which is kind of weird to me. I don't want people "watching" me spend money.
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