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Post by klauth on May 27, 2020 6:52:38 GMT -6
This is geared for you larger scale patchbay guys: looking back, and knowing what you now know... what do you wish you had done differantly when, ramping up for that big patchbay install, such as...did you account for adding extra bays for growth, or did you underestimate it?
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Post by thirdeye on May 27, 2020 7:28:15 GMT -6
When we switched to tt bays, our configuration mostly used 64 of the 96 points on each of the 5 bays. The other 32 patch points were filled with pads, mults, phase reverse, etc... Since then, we've added gear and pulled several of the mults out to add new D Subs. Still have some spares available and room to go, but getting pretty full. I would say yes, definitely plan for expansion, which usually happens sooner than you think! Extra cabling will help for quick expansion.
How many bays are you adding??
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Post by klauth on May 27, 2020 8:18:47 GMT -6
When we switched to tt bays, our configuration mostly used 32 of the 48 channels of each of the 5 bays. The other 16 patch points were filled with pads, mults, phase reverse, etc... Since then, we've added gear and pulled several of the mults out to add new D Subs. Still have some spares available and room to go, but getting pretty full. I would say yes, definitely plan for expansion, which usually happens sooner than you think! Extra cabling will help for quick expansion. How many bays are you adding?? I've got 10 tt bays and 10 XLR pannels with 16 XLR's each. |
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Post by thirdeye on May 27, 2020 9:18:28 GMT -6
When we switched to tt bays, our configuration mostly used 32 of the 48 channels of each of the 5 bays. The other 16 patch points were filled with pads, mults, phase reverse, etc... Since then, we've added gear and pulled several of the mults out to add new D Subs. Still have some spares available and room to go, but getting pretty full. I would say yes, definitely plan for expansion, which usually happens sooner than you think! Extra cabling will help for quick expansion. How many bays are you adding?? I've got 10 tt bays and 10 XLR pannels with 16 XLR's each. Wow!!! |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 10:12:02 GMT -6
TT>Elco's.
Every bay config I've ever done was a warmup for the final game of TT's with Elco Interconnects. Now, modularity, neatness, expandability, and reconfiguring is easy compared to my earlier efforts. I hope I'm done for good, but if not, it's easy to expand or revamp.
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Post by Ward on May 27, 2020 10:27:03 GMT -6
I have 7 Switchcraft 9625 TT point patch bays. And they work great for interfacing gear 8 points at a time. And I have two old 96 point TT bays for connection to long snakes that go out to three different rooms.
What I need to do and will do in the future, is connect up 16 more point to the bays and have XLRs and TRS connections points on the back for more easily streamlining other gear into the system and having more control room connection points.
The 8 connection point groupings of the 9625s work great for a lot of stuff but are limited too. Overcoming the limitations and finding more flexibilities is what I'm after next.
Good question! Should be a great thread. And ELCO is cool, but unfortunately defunct now. So onwards we go.
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 11:29:13 GMT -6
And ELCO is cool, but unfortunately defunct now. how so? |
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Post by thirdeye on May 27, 2020 12:06:10 GMT -6
TT>Elco's. Every bay config I've ever done was a warmup for the final game of TT's with Elco Interconnects. Now, modularity, neatness, expandability, and reconfiguring is easy compared to my earlier efforts. I hope I'm done for good, but if not, it's easy to expand or revamp. In retrospect, and depending on the config, I think Elco could have been great for our patchbays. The db25s get pretty tight for my sausage fingers!! |
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on May 27, 2020 12:45:02 GMT -6
Plan it out, plan it out, then plan it out again! Room for expansion is a must as is a consistent labeling code, I suggest keeping a Spreadsheet around. Elco’s or D subs sure make organization easier, I hate Dsubs, but they are cheap and working in groups of 8 is easy. I’m probably the biggest evangelist of a bay full of Mults, Phase reverse, pads and even a couple of Isolation transformers or splitting transformers wired in and the idea of a patch panel with XLR’s TRS 1/8 and 3/32 jacks so you don’t need a drawer full of adaptor cables where the one you need is always the one that’s gone missing.
Go big just do it !
Used solder and punch block bays are cheap, they last forever and the wire wrap jacks are not that hard to solder. Buy a heat shrink label maker one of the best investments I ever made.
If your a true audio cheapskate like me you will find that 2 space bays and drawing out custom panels on front panels.com is cheaper than single space bays & if space is an issue you can squeeze 14 rows of jacks and labels on a 6 space panel. You can buy single space strain relief tie bars from Penn Elcom.
If you make your own Dsubs, solder is probably better, but a major PITA. Crimp are so much easier but avoid cheap pin insertion tools that you find on EBay! Those things are cheap for a reason.
If you go with prefab Dsub or Elco bays or DIY build strain relief into the bay, those snakes get heavy and especially with Dsubs you don’t want the connectors carrying all that weight.
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Post by Quint on May 27, 2020 14:21:22 GMT -6
And ELCO is cool, but unfortunately defunct now. how so? Agreed. I just built/added/retrofitted additional Elco connections and patchbays. Everything can be ordered from Redco, among other places. Elco is the best for this sort of thing. |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 14:29:30 GMT -6
When you're down on your hands and knees staring into the back of a dark rack with a flashlight in one hand, and a cable in the other - limited space, cramped quarters and a couple dozen wires entering the back of the bays - what do you want to be staring at?  24 cables with single screw, rock solid thumb actuators that are gold plated which will have zero intermittents that will last a lifetime, or : 96 cables with dual screw actuators that are notorious for breaking off, misthreading, stripping out, and at best are intermittent due to crappy strain relief. I choose the simplistic, rock solid solution. For me, there IS only one solution - and it's not defunct..... Elco. Barring that, I'd rather go without bays on non-critical connections. Getting 576 connections into that amount of space requires significant cost outlay, and critical thinking. I spent months dialing things in. Then, I got smart and re-did it. LOL |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 14:32:59 GMT -6
PS - for those undertaking an Elco approach, I still have a TON of Elco to Elco interconnects, and several bays FS. Not that the above is a sales pitch. I actually live and believe it. I'm just over-connected at this point in time, after retiring a 120 input console, 2" analog deck, 48 I/o digital machines, and 96 channels of PT.
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Post by Quint on May 27, 2020 15:17:44 GMT -6
When you're down on your hands and knees staring into the back of a dark rack with a flashlight in one hand, and a cable in the other - limited space, cramped quarters and a couple dozen wires entering the back of the bays - what do you want to be staring at? View Attachment24 cables with single screw, rock solid thumb actuators that are gold plated which will have zero intermittents that will last a lifetime, or : 96 cables with dual screw actuators that are notorious for breaking off, misthreading, stripping out, and at best are intermittent due to crappy strain relief. I choose the simplistic, rock solid solution. For me, there IS only one solution - and it's not defunct..... Elco. Barring that, I'd rather go without bays on non-critical connections. Getting 576 connections into that amount of space requires significant cost outlay, and critical thinking. I spent months dialing things in. Then, I got smart and re-did it. LOL That picture is pretty. |
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Post by Ward on May 27, 2020 18:05:41 GMT -6
When you're down on your hands and knees staring into the back of a dark rack with a flashlight in one hand, and a cable in the other - limited space, cramped quarters and a couple dozen wires entering the back of the bays - what do you want to be staring at? View Attachment24 cables with single screw, rock solid thumb actuators that are gold plated which will have zero intermittents that will last a lifetime, or : 96 cables with dual screw actuators that are notorious for breaking off, misthreading, stripping out, and at best are intermittent due to crappy strain relief. I choose the simplistic, rock solid solution. For me, there IS only one solution - and it's not defunct..... Elco. Barring that, I'd rather go without bays on non-critical connections. Getting 576 connections into that amount of space requires significant cost outlay, and critical thinking. I spent months dialing things in. Then, I got smart and re-did it. LOL Sure looks good, clean and functional. Obviously superior to D25 but I thought it was on the endangered species list now. Glad it isn't! |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 20:02:57 GMT -6
When you're down on your hands and knees staring into the back of a dark rack with a flashlight in one hand, and a cable in the other - limited space, cramped quarters and a couple dozen wires entering the back of the bays - what do you want to be staring at? 24 cables with single screw, rock solid thumb actuators that are gold plated which will have zero intermittents that will last a lifetime, or : 96 cables with dual screw actuators that are notorious for breaking off, misthreading, stripping out, and at best are intermittent due to crappy strain relief. I choose the simplistic, rock solid solution. For me, there IS only one solution - and it's not defunct..... Elco. Barring that, I'd rather go without bays on non-critical connections. Getting 576 connections into that amount of space requires significant cost outlay, and critical thinking. I spent months dialing things in. Then, I got smart and re-did it. LOL That picture is pretty. Haha! It's not as pretty with all the snakes installed, but it's a **** of a lot prettier than any other option I've tried, and in the past, I've tried most of em. <<thumbsup>> BTW, from fully connected to fully disconnected like the above pic - it takes about 10 minutes. Maybe 20 to hook it all back up again. That make daddy happy. :-) |
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2020 20:04:22 GMT -6
When you're down on your hands and knees staring into the back of a dark rack with a flashlight in one hand, and a cable in the other - limited space, cramped quarters and a couple dozen wires entering the back of the bays - what do you want to be staring at? 24 cables with single screw, rock solid thumb actuators that are gold plated which will have zero intermittents that will last a lifetime, or : 96 cables with dual screw actuators that are notorious for breaking off, misthreading, stripping out, and at best are intermittent due to crappy strain relief. I choose the simplistic, rock solid solution. For me, there IS only one solution - and it's not defunct..... Elco. Barring that, I'd rather go without bays on non-critical connections. Getting 576 connections into that amount of space requires significant cost outlay, and critical thinking. I spent months dialing things in. Then, I got smart and re-did it. LOL Sure looks good, clean and functional. Obviously superior to D25 but I thought it was on the endangered species list now. Glad it isn't! I have never heard that Ward. Most of the bigger studio's and post production houses I've ever gone to use them exclusively. I'd guess most of the home studio's or smaller places are into TRS these days. |
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Post by Ward on May 28, 2020 5:40:44 GMT -6
Well, Dr. Bill . . . I woldn't call Avid Home or Small studio gear. And it's all DB25 connectors, thus the proliferation of DB25 to DB25/XLR/TRS snakes connecting to Switchcraft 9625 patchbays which are all TT
We can discuss which should be the standard, but the sheer volume of gear that uses DB25 connectors is overwhelming.
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Post by Quint on May 28, 2020 7:53:16 GMT -6
Well, Dr. Bill . . . I woldn't call Avid Home or Small studio gear. And it's all DB25 connectors, thus the proliferation of DB25 to DB25/XLR/TRS snakes connecting to Switchcraft 9625 patchbays which are all TT We can discuss which should be the standard, but the sheer volume of gear that uses DB25 connectors is overwhelming. I think Bill was simply saying that, regardless of the proliferation of DB25 or not, Elco is still far from extinct and still used by many pros who want a robust system of interconnects for all of their gear. I would agree with that. Any DB25 gear that I have leaves the unit, attaches to a strain relief bar, and then travels a two or three feet to the back of the rack where it terminates into a female Elco connector. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 28, 2020 8:38:04 GMT -6
Sure looks good, clean and functional. Obviously superior to D25 but I thought it was on the endangered species list now. Glad it isn't! I have never heard that Ward. Most of the bigger studio's and post production houses I've ever gone to use them exclusively. I'd guess most of the home studio's or smaller places are into TRS these days. OK some ELCO history, in the 70’s and 80’s the ELCO was pretty much the de facto standard for multipin connector, but unlike the D-sub everybody had their own pin out standard so wiring was a PITA unless you were an all MCI studio. While the ELCO is more robust than a Dsub, in the live world, where Mulipin connectors probably outsold studio use 3 to 1 the ELCO had every complaint that has been listed above for the Dsub. While robust enough for studio use they simply can’t handle the world of daily plug unplug. All most every large and medium size SR provider adopted some military use plug that replaced the ELCO with their own pin out standard. The Medium size ELCO saw a brief comeback with the first generation of ADAT. The problem was in ADAT based studios very, very few were going from ELCO to ELCO and the price of the ELCO made even HOSA break outs pricey. ELCO’s are pricey because pretty much nobody but audio guys use them, the biggest market was military but 99% of that market found better connectors for specific uses. The other problem was nobody ever looked at the cost vs equal number of XLRs just as a single connector. Today there are 2 or 3 companies making ELCO’s vs about a hundred making Dsub. Those cheap HOSA ELCO snakes didn’t help the ELCO’s reputation, even if it wasn’t the ELCO that failed. The Dsub is dirt cheap and you can fit a bunch on a 1u rack panel so manufacturers love it. Now you want a well built multipin connector for audio? The Whirlwind MASS connector is what you want, but if you think ELCOs are expensive these are going to make you view ELCO like a used KIA. I know Bill has had great success with ELCO’s and over all I’ll give them a slight edge over the Dsub, but I also know I don’t have to dig very hard in my list of contacts to find somebody who will match every one of Bills complaints about Dsubs to the ELCO. They probably will all agree the Dsub is worse, but half will say “the Dsub is so fucking cheap”. The Dsub is dirt cheap in its non millspec version, the millspec is used mainly in aircraft these days, I can probably buy a 100 bodies and pins for the price Of a single ELCO. I can also simply head 3 miles straight down the street and pick up Dsub’s and tools. Electronic Supply has a row plus for Dsub, sorry no ELCO parts in sight. You have to realize 90% of the connectors we use in pro audio were designed for some other use ( ever tried to find that PSU connector used on Midas XL or DDA consoles) so for the most part other than 1/4in and XLR other industries set the price and availability. |
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Post by drbill on May 28, 2020 10:22:55 GMT -6
We can discuss which should be the standard, but the sheer volume of gear that uses DB25 connectors is overwhelming. Indeed. Because consumers will no longer pay for quality, and manufacturers want to make more profit. And doubly so when it comes to connectors. Especially when there are LOTS of connections. Eric can say what he wants (although I've had FAR more issues with DSubs, XLR's and TRS than I have with Elco's), consumers can buy what they want. Virtually every high end studio or post production house I've ever gone into has used and continues to use Elco's. And then, there's the sheer number of the cables themselves. 1/3 the number of Elco interconnects over DSub interconnects. If you REALLY want a robust, simple, everyone has them solution - use solder bays and break them out to XLR bays on the rear of your rack. Of course, then you're talking 24X's the amount of confusion, and it would 5X's the rack space and take a day to plug and unplug my bays, but hey, everyone knows what an XLR is. When confronted with manufacturers who use Dsubs, I try to avoid. If - as in the case of AVID - I can't, I do as Quint does, I strain relief them and immediately take them to a rear rack mounted female Elco. I don't give a rip about what the standard is. I want a connector that won't easily strip out or break off, that's gold plated and won't oxidize, and one that isn't all wobbly even when completely tied down. I'm sure I could go to some of the other more mil spec connectors that Eric is referring to, but why? The Elco's have been robust and well accepted in the pro studio community for decades. They work for me. The world can go to DSubs. I'll happily go my own way. |
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Post by Quint on May 28, 2020 10:57:39 GMT -6
I have never heard that Ward. Most of the bigger studio's and post production houses I've ever gone to use them exclusively. I'd guess most of the home studio's or smaller places are into TRS these days. OK some ELCO history, in the 70’s and 80’s the ELCO was pretty much the de facto standard for multipin connector, but unlike the D-sub everybody had their own pin out standard so wiring was a PITA unless you were an all MCI studio. While the ELCO is more robust than a Dsub, in the live world, where Mulipin connectors probably outsold studio use 3 to 1 the ELCO had every complaint that has been listed above for the Dsub. While robust enough for studio use they simply can’t handle the world of daily plug unplug. All most every large and medium size SR provider adopted some military use plug that replaced the ELCO with their own pin out standard. The Medium size ELCO saw a brief comeback with the first generation of ADAT. The problem was in ADAT based studios very, very few were going from ELCO to ELCO and the price of the ELCO made even HOSA break outs pricey. ELCO’s are pricey because pretty much nobody but audio guys use them, the biggest market was military but 99% of that market found better connectors for specific uses. The other problem was nobody ever looked at the cost vs equal number of XLRs just as a single connector. Today there are 2 or 3 companies making ELCO’s vs about a hundred making Dsub. Those cheap HOSA ELCO snakes didn’t help the ELCO’s reputation, even if it wasn’t the ELCO that failed. The Dsub is dirt cheap and you can fit a bunch on a 1u rack panel so manufacturers love it. Now you want a well built multipin connector for audio? The Whirlwind MASS connector is what you want, but if you think ELCOs are expensive these are going to make you view ELCO like a used KIA. I know Bill has had great success with ELCO’s and over all I’ll give them a slight edge over the Dsub, but I also know I don’t have to dig very hard in my list of contacts to find somebody who will match every one of Bills complaints about Dsubs to the ELCO. They probably will all agree the Dsub is worse, but half will say “the Dsub is so fucking cheap”. The Dsub is dirt cheap in its non millspec version, the millspec is used mainly in aircraft these days, I can probably buy a 100 bodies and pins for the price Of a single ELCO. I can also simply head 3 miles straight down the street and pick up Dsub’s and tools. Electronic Supply has a row plus for Dsub, sorry no ELCO parts in sight. You have to realize 90% of the connectors we use in pro audio were designed for some other use ( ever tried to find that PSU connector used on Midas XL or DDA consoles) so for the most part other than 1/4in and XLR other industries set the price and availability. You're not wrong about some of those other options like MASS, Cannon DL, etc., but, holy shit, they are expensive. And, honestly, I've had zero trouble with Elco ever since I went that route a number of years ago. I've been really happy with my decision to go Elco and wouldn't go back. Also, if an Elco pinout is incompatible for your needs, it doesn't take long to pop the pins out and repin it to whatever pinout pattern you need. Granted, that's not something you'd necessarily want to be doing in a live setting, but it's not an issue for studio work. |
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Post by svart on May 28, 2020 17:08:44 GMT -6
I initially underestimated, then installed what I needed with a little overhead, then eventually started going with less and less outboard gear until now the patchbays mostly sit there with the same patches all the time now. I only occasionally repatch things to fix the inevitable oxidation that happens with brass contacts.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 29, 2020 12:22:02 GMT -6
I think the DB25 has become the defacto multipin standard these days for the simple reason of size. It's much easier to fit multiple DB25s on the back of a 1u unit that is an interface or something.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 29, 2020 13:10:05 GMT -6
I think the DB25 has become the defacto multipin standard these days for the simple reason of size. It's much easier to fit multiple DB25s on the back of a 1u unit that is an interface or something. That , price and this obvious one that goes to price, manufacturers can get PCB mount Dsubs. |
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Post by swurveman on May 30, 2020 11:10:13 GMT -6
I have 7 Switchcraft 9625 TT point patch bays. And they work great for interfacing gear 8 points at a time. And I have two old 96 point TT bays for connection to long snakes that go out to three different rooms. What I need to do and will do in the future, is connect up 16 more point to the bays and have XLRs and TRS connections points on the back for more easily streamlining other gear into the system and having more control room connection points. The 8 connection point groupings of the 9625s work great for a lot of stuff but are limited too. Overcoming the limitations and finding more flexibilities is what I'm after next.
I don't use a patchbay anymore, but they are a pain in the ass if you want to make changes, and anybody who uses one needs to think long and hard about a set and forget configuration. Climbing in the back to reconfigure db25's and change switches etc. isn't easy. The old adage , "measure twice and cut once" in carpentry applies to patchbays in spades. |
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