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Post by tkaitkai on May 21, 2020 3:32:49 GMT -6
Curious to know. How are you guys doing this?
I'm a huge fan of super wide, tightly-locked strummed acoustics. Obviously tracking tight in the first place is ideal, but unless the player has an immaculate sense of rhythm, I find most strummed parts can use a little help.
I've been experimenting with dynamic splitting + quantizing in Reaper. It does a great job lining things up, but you get artifacts from time-stretching. I've done this in Melodyne, too, but the artifacts from that are worse. I've also used warp markers in PT. I know most other DAWs have similar functionality, but maybe there's one that does it better?
Would love to hear your thoughts.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 21, 2020 7:07:10 GMT -6
It’s tough. In Pro Tools, the best results come with X-form (I think that’s what it’s called. It’s where it isn’t real time, it’s rendered. Cubase seems to handle it a little better. So far, razor blade in Luna, has been incredible. Like a step above the others. Not sure if I’ve tried acoustic, but I did some electrics and was really shocked by how transparent it was.
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Post by WKG on May 21, 2020 7:57:26 GMT -6
I've used Revoice Pro occasionally to tighten things up.
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Post by tkaitkai on May 21, 2020 8:10:42 GMT -6
It’s tough. In Pro Tools, the best results come with X-form (I think that’s what it’s called. It’s where it isn’t real time, it’s rendered. Cubase seems to handle it a little better. So far, razor blade in Luna, has been incredible. Like a step above the others. Not sure if I’ve tried acoustic, but I did some electrics and was really shocked by how transparent it was. OK, now I'm definitely giving Luna a try. Don't know why I haven't thought to try X-Form. For as long as I've used PT I've never even touched it. Thanks for the suggestions! I've used Revoice Pro occasionally to tighten things up. Another one I've been meaning to check out. I'll give it a demo today and see.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 21, 2020 10:52:27 GMT -6
In Logic, I put the two tracks right there together, one on top of the other. I enter both of them into Flex Time mode. If the parts are pretty close already, I’ll just grab the worst offending transients and drag them ‘til they look close to the other part visually. (Then listen of course.) This usually works for me surprisingly well. You can also just straight up quantize the part (by whatever Q-strength you want) and see how close that gets you.
I always think this is not going to work, that it’s going to sound all warpy or warbly. Almost every time I am pleasantly surprised. Sometimes I’m even shocked. And sometimes, the big question becomes, “how much variation do I leave in so it doesn’t sound toooooo close to be impossible?”
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Post by swafford on May 21, 2020 12:56:34 GMT -6
In Logic, I put the two tracks right there together, one on top of the other. I enter both of them into Flex Time mode. If the parts are pretty close already, I’ll just grab the worst offending transients and drag them ‘til they look close to the other part visually. (Then listen of course.) This usually works for me surprisingly well. This is pretty much what I do, accept I usually do at least 3 takes per track, if it's me, I'll do 5. I'll go through the other takes and comp it to match drum hits, then merge them all. Then if I think I need it closer, I'll flex time it and drag the parts that are off a little. I'll go through each double (or triple) and do the same thing, always aligning to the snare track. When that's all done, I'll go through them again and tighten a bit more. If something is so far off it sounds weird, then it's redone or lived with.
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Post by EmRR on May 21, 2020 15:29:55 GMT -6
Guess I'm still in the stone ages, manually cutting and dragging all this stuff around, looking for zero crossings with matching shapes for crossfade points.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 21, 2020 15:33:26 GMT -6
Guess I'm still in the stone ages, manually cutting and dragging all this stuff around, looking for zero crossings with matching shapes for crossfade points. I’m right there with you. The top end artifacts always sounded awful for me doing it the time stretch way.
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Post by ml on May 21, 2020 15:37:55 GMT -6
Curious to know. How are you guys doing this? I'm a huge fan of super wide, tightly-locked strummed acoustics. Obviously tracking tight in the first place is ideal, but unless the player has an immaculate sense of rhythm, I find most strummed parts can use a little help. I've been experimenting with dynamic splitting + quantizing in Reaper. It does a great job lining things up, but you get artifacts from time-stretching. I've done this in Melodyne, too, but the artifacts from that are worse. I've also used warp markers in PT. I know most other DAWs have similar functionality, but maybe there's one that does it better? Would love to hear your thoughts. I'm a Reaper user. I do dynamic split "write stitch to selected items" then hand stretch to match the guide track. I usually try to search for the most naturally "quantized" part of the acoustic track and then make a loop. I've tried to vocalign acoustics, I heard Max Martin does that but i think its easier to do it by hand.
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Post by tkaitkai on May 21, 2020 16:19:26 GMT -6
Curious to know. How are you guys doing this? I'm a huge fan of super wide, tightly-locked strummed acoustics. Obviously tracking tight in the first place is ideal, but unless the player has an immaculate sense of rhythm, I find most strummed parts can use a little help. I've been experimenting with dynamic splitting + quantizing in Reaper. It does a great job lining things up, but you get artifacts from time-stretching. I've done this in Melodyne, too, but the artifacts from that are worse. I've also used warp markers in PT. I know most other DAWs have similar functionality, but maybe there's one that does it better? Would love to hear your thoughts. I'm a Reaper user. I do dynamic split "write stitch to selected items" then hand stretch to match the guide track. I usually try to search for the most naturally "quantized" part of the acoustic track and then make a loop. I've tried to vocalign acoustics, I heard Max Martin does that but i think its easier to do it by hand. I'm also a fan of looping sections if I can get away with it! I've actually been guilty of copying & pasting individual strums. I don't always mind sloppy timing (much less worried about it with vocals, for example), but with doubled guitars, I almost want it to sound a little too perfect. I've used Vocalign for aligning doubles and it's kind of wacky, but then again, I'm still on V3. I'll have to give V4 a go (along with Revoice) and see if it's an improvement.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 21, 2020 17:05:50 GMT -6
Guess I'm still in the stone ages, manually cutting and dragging all this stuff around, looking for zero crossings with matching shapes for crossfade points. I’m right there with you. The top end artifacts always sounded awful for me doing it the time stretch way. They always did to me, too--until like 18 months ago. I'm not sure what changed in Logic's algorithm, but something sounds different to me than it used to. I'm not talking about dramatic timing changes, just nudges here and there.
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Post by tkaitkai on May 21, 2020 17:16:22 GMT -6
the other mark williams Which algorithm are you using for Flex Time? I've tried many times, but never really gelled with Logic. Something about the UI/workflow just bugs me. But if the time stretching is transparent enough, I could get over it.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on May 22, 2020 1:04:58 GMT -6
I have just finished editing acoustic guitars for a song. Tracked with 2 mics. One take in the open position second capo at the 6th.
Cubase slip editing is the best way to edit transient material. Example from about halfway through this video:
If you don't have cubase this won't help as I don't think any other DAW has slip editing inside the event.
I hate using time stretching for acoustic guitars, I have never found an algo that sounds natural in the high end..... including logic YMMV.
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Post by EmRR on May 22, 2020 7:23:23 GMT -6
I might misunderstand your meaning, but I don’t see anything in that video that DP won’t do.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on May 22, 2020 8:11:50 GMT -6
I might misunderstand your meaning, but I don’t see anything in that video that DP won’t do. I was incorrect DP and reaper do a similar thing. I have used both on the odd occasion but always edited back in cubase or PT. PT has a nudge within region which doesn't really have the same use. Slipping with regions is handy when you can lock multiple tracks together. eg drums. It is a lot easier to maintain the original feel of the part than say BD or warping to a grid. I haven't touched anything but cubase for a few years so other DAWs may have similar work flows now. Back to the OP... I agree, stereo acoustics that aren't locked in drive me mental. IMO manual editing will sound better, but requires more time obviously. In a busy mix warping/stretching shouldn't be noticed. (probably only noticeable in comparison to the original)
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Post by the other mark williams on May 22, 2020 9:37:22 GMT -6
Went back and found a track where I used Logic's Flex Time. Looks like I was just using the "Polyphonic (Auto)" algorithm, so it shouldn't be anything special. But it works for me. I will note, however, that it was used sparingly. The track was pretty close as it had been played.
Also, each of the acoustic guitars (L&R) AND the lead vocal were recorded with a Soyuz 013 FET through the Stam 1073MPA and then through the Stam SA-2A.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/somebodys-song-with-soyuz-011-fet
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Post by Ward on May 22, 2020 9:43:23 GMT -6
Guess I'm still in the stone ages, manually cutting and dragging all this stuff around, looking for zero crossings with matching shapes for crossfade points. You're not alone but I mainly rely on the 'Play Better' plugin which requires practice.
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Post by tkaitkai on May 22, 2020 9:57:01 GMT -6
Went back and found a track where I used Logic's Flex Time. Looks like I was just using the "Polyphonic (Auto)" algorithm, so it shouldn't be anything special. But it works for me. I will note, however, that it was used sparingly. The track was pretty close as it had been played. Also, each of the acoustic guitars (L&R) AND the lead vocal were recorded with a Soyuz 011 FET through the Stam 1073MPA and then through the Stam SA-2A. https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/somebodys-song-with-soyuz-011-fetSounds beautiful. Thanks for sharing — gonna have to give Logic another shot after hearing this! That Soyuz sounds crazy good.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 22, 2020 10:29:16 GMT -6
Went back and found a track where I used Logic's Flex Time. Looks like I was just using the "Polyphonic (Auto)" algorithm, so it shouldn't be anything special. But it works for me. I will note, however, that it was used sparingly. The track was pretty close as it had been played. Also, each of the acoustic guitars (L&R) AND the lead vocal were recorded with a Soyuz 011 FET through the Stam 1073MPA and then through the Stam SA-2A. https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/somebodys-song-with-soyuz-011-fetSounds beautiful. Thanks for sharing — gonna have to give Logic another shot after hearing this! That Soyuz sounds crazy good. Thanks, man! I'm a fan of how Logic handles this kind of thing, but honestly, it's hard for me to imagine Logic does it any better than Cubase or Studio One. With Cubase in particular, I often find it quite similar to Logic, at least under the hood. If Logic doesn't jive with you, it doesn't jive with you. Nothing wrong with that.
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Post by dankin on May 22, 2020 14:01:56 GMT -6
Slip editing is a cool feature, but the result is no different than cutting and moving regions manually in any daw, ultimately that's still what it's doing. Just another away of interfacing with the DAW, I do wish PT had it though. For me the biggest factor with guitars is the role they are playing and where they will be placed in the mix. For strumming acoustics in a big mix, I just cut and move them as needed, then use beat detective to crossfade since it will fill the gaps. For something thats more exposed, it's a combination of moving and crossfading, and occasional timestetching after the transient using the TCE tool with waves sound shifter as the algorithm. Occasionally, I'll use Flextime if I'm working in Logic, before moving to Pro Tools for mixing. Flextime can be surprisingly good. I do not like it for multitrack drums though. I can always tell when I get drums to mix that have been flextimed.
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Post by WKG on May 22, 2020 14:22:54 GMT -6
Went back and found a track where I used Logic's Flex Time. Looks like I was just using the "Polyphonic (Auto)" algorithm, so it shouldn't be anything special. But it works for me. I will note, however, that it was used sparingly. The track was pretty close as it had been played. Also, each of the acoustic guitars (L&R) AND the lead vocal were recorded with a Soyuz 011 FET through the Stam 1073MPA and then through the Stam SA-2A. https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/somebodys-song-with-soyuz-011-fetGreat song! Wasn't the 011 a tube mic? I almost got those before deciding on the 013.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 22, 2020 15:45:38 GMT -6
Went back and found a track where I used Logic's Flex Time. Looks like I was just using the "Polyphonic (Auto)" algorithm, so it shouldn't be anything special. But it works for me. I will note, however, that it was used sparingly. The track was pretty close as it had been played. Also, each of the acoustic guitars (L&R) AND the lead vocal were recorded with a Soyuz 011 FET through the Stam 1073MPA and then through the Stam SA-2A. https%3A//soundcloud.com/markwilliams/somebodys-song-with-soyuz-011-fetGreat song! Wasn't the 011 a tube mic? I almost got those before deciding on the 013. Yes, you are absolutely right! Brain slip. Sorry for the confusion. I'll correct it in my original post (and on SoundCloud).
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Post by audioscape on May 22, 2020 16:51:49 GMT -6
Slip Editing, while much more time consuming is definitely my personal preferred method for guitars - acoustic or electric. Same goes for bass.
Will only employ any sort of time-stretching if it's an issue of "length" and need a teensy bit more "length" to make things gel.
This combination of slip editing (Cubase) and occasional time stretching gives me the most natural results... once you've done it a few thousand times you end up getting VERY proficient at it ;-)
But, as always. YMMV! If it SOUNDS GOOD, it IS GOOD!
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 22, 2020 19:12:30 GMT -6
I still do it by hand.
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Post by sirthought on May 23, 2020 0:23:08 GMT -6
If you don't have cubase this won't help as I don't think any other DAW has slip editing inside the event. FYI…Logic now has slip editing with the 10.5 update.
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