ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921 
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Post by ericn on May 16, 2020 11:55:26 GMT -6
Don’t think of it as changing the phase of the room, it’s more correcting the e of the speaker in your room. It acts just like the DSP in all the monitors with DSP plate amps. The exception is that rather than the phase correction being pre set at the factory it’s set in your room. The question always is, is it really an improvement? I don’t know a lot of the time driver choice and crossover filter choice are based on phase and how they make these drivers “gel” together. I will admit I was watching a MiniDSP Dirac box with the crappy converters just to play around with on a bunch of different systems. , it does look like they have an all-digital version of the MiniDSP Dirac box (I linked to it above). That way you could avoid the crappy AD/DA... Yeah I have seen that one, the one I was watching started at below $200 and I thought hey at that price. I really don’t want to spend any $$ right now, but I wouldn’t mind playing around with it on a couple of systems might be fun. |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2020 12:50:23 GMT -6
ericn, it does look like they have an all-digital version of the MiniDSP Dirac box (I linked to it above). That way you could avoid the crappy AD/DA... Yeah I have seen that one, the one I was watching started at below $200 and I thought hey at that price. I really don’t want to spend any $$ right now, but I wouldn’t mind playing around with it on a couple of systems might be fun. I hear that 100% loud and clear. Not a fun time spend $ unnecessarily. |
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Post by soundintheround on May 18, 2020 14:20:39 GMT -6
I have Sonarworks. It’s ‘works’ for me. Game changer for sure.
Did measure the room with the SW on?
No. It is immediately obvious to my ears that tracks became 'flatter' and focused within the stereo spectrum. No need to verify the SW on some graph or test its accuracy. In fact.... I modify my room curve slightly to my tastes (so it isn't perfectly flat, sonarworks gives you a few options there) Mixing for me is all about finding a monitoring space that works, and getting the results I expect. That can be done is rather broad strokes, doesn't have to be some laboratory scientific quest to find the flattest curve. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on May 19, 2020 21:41:52 GMT -6
I'm going to fill my Sound Anchor speaker stands with sand and run the sweeps again. Maybe, MAYBE that will help clear up the little wobble down in the low mids.... Not to distract from the thread's journey, but I have a pair on order with the coasters. Curious if that's recommended with them? Seems like a "why not" step when setting them up. |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 19, 2020 21:45:12 GMT -6
I'm going to fill my Sound Anchor speaker stands with sand and run the sweeps again. Maybe, MAYBE that will help clear up the little wobble down in the low mids.... Not to distract from the thread's journey, but I have a pair on order with the coasters. Curious if that's recommended with them? Seems like a "why not" step when setting them up. Mass in the thing that holds the speaker rarely seems to be a bad idea. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on May 19, 2020 21:50:09 GMT -6
Not to distract from the thread's journey, but I have a pair on order with the coasters. Curious if that's recommended with them? Seems like a "why not" step when setting them up. Mass in the thing that holds the speaker rarely seems to be a bad idea. Yeah, agree with you (and the Dr.). Seems like an obvious thing to do. |
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Post by nudwig on May 19, 2020 22:34:00 GMT -6
Got my head around Dirac's measurement system and have been testing the correction filters at different cutoffs, 450Hz seems to be just right for this room. Sounds tighter and and more natural in listening so at this moment I'm prefering it to Sonarworks, most likely because I'm only correcting the bottom. Mixing will tell more. Thanks for the heads up guys.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on May 20, 2020 9:54:38 GMT -6
I was playing around with the Demo a bit and was also talking with a consumer dealer friend who loaned me a Demo lexicon surround pre with Dirac ( he’s closed and isn’t much for anything that requires measurement). So here is my opinion based on playing around with the Quested 302’s F11a’s Magnepan mg 3.3’s custom subs and a pair of little prototypes.
Of all the room correction software this by far the best, I love the lowend response I can get with this in a near field set up with the F11a’s I can almost get the intergration of a single sub that I get with stereo subs, but not in a mid field or far field. The 302’s don’t sound quite as dark and less blur in the mids. Using the lexicon or Software demo on the big Magnepan Dipoles I’m not quite as impressed the low end is really where it shines but from around 1K I just don’t think it works well with Dipoles, the line source ribbon , consider by many to be one of the finest if not the top tweeter suddenly has this dirty gritty sound that goes away the second you by pass the Dirac.
Now running 3 F11a’s the proto 2 ways and custom subs in surround with the software in the Lexicon is magical, I mean I’m good at placement but just plopping speakers down where it was convenient running the software taking some measurements you would have thought I spent my entire stay at home tuning this set up. I always thought most of the surround music mixes were a bit heavy on use of the surround speakers as effects rather than used to really contribute to the experience, with this system everything just seamed more focused, suddenly images had real positions not that effect where you know where each speaker is.
Am I in love? No, it still adds something but it is far less noticeable than any of it competitors, it might add a bit of compression and the grit on the Magnepan HF keep me from loving it. Still for the $ I’ll probably buy one of the Mini DSP AES boxes, probably the 8 ch to play with in surround and speaker design projects, If the little Drop/ Grace $100 DAC’s had AES or Spdif it would be a XTA or Clair/Lake/Dolby killer for a bargain basement price. I just wish there was an easy way to use my Audix/ MBHO Calibrated mic instead of the dedicated USB mic.
So give it a try.
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Post by drbill on May 20, 2020 12:58:50 GMT -6
Thanks nudwig and ericn . Your experiences are helpful and appreciated. |
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Post by mrholmes on May 22, 2020 14:29:41 GMT -6
I just can tell from my experience with so-called room correction software.
The two worst where IK Multimedia and another company which I forgot the name because with their plug in the mono middle was completely fucked up. IK was OK but sounded to my ears like someone put EQ on the 2 BUS and this called for new, different trouble. The Sonarworks thing works pretty impressive in CAN correction.
I still doubt that software can change things in a CR, because its physics in the room. I alwas ask myself how they want to change phase in the room?
I once was able to get a bit better in the lower mids with EQ. This was a single wider Q cut just a db or something. I bet the 2 BUS is EQ against the room you will just get new problems with a different name.
To me there is no perfect CR. I once was in a 60K CR and it did sound unreal, no one in a home is listening to music like this. The room sounded somewhat crazy...
In the end of the day you need to get to know the flaws of your room and just do your work. The other problem is the monitors that's why I use three different ones.
With the RCS someone corrects me if I am wrong and technology went on. Yet I am trusting any system.
Don’t think of it as changing the phase of the room, it’s more correcting the e of the speaker in your room. It acts just like the DSP in all the monitors with DSP plate amps. The exception is that rather than the phase correction being pre set at the factory it’s set in your room. The question always is, is it really an improvement? I don’t know a lot of the time driver choice and crossover filter choice are based on phase and how they make these drivers “gel” together. I will admit I was watching a MiniDSP Dirac box with the crappy converters just to play around with on a bunch of different systems.
The thread made me keen and I downloaded the demo of Sonarworks.
After a while of listening with and without Sonarworks I have to correct my opinion.
I would say my room is not bad tuned, and as I mentioned before the ME906 are phase accurate monitors.
Sonarworks still helps in the imaging, have no idea how they do it. Its something like when I had my first overhead acoustic cloud.
It feels like it can eliminate reflections - I know this sounds crazy .... wiz ?
Only thing that bugs me is that 900 Hz may measure new tomorrow.
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Post by wiz on May 22, 2020 19:18:30 GMT -6
I know the general audio guy on speaker correction used to be negative...
But I am sure if anyone who doesn't like this software, came to my room, and heard it.. they would use it.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on May 22, 2020 21:14:52 GMT -6
I know the general audio guy on speaker correction used to be negative... But I am sure if anyone who doesn't like this software, came to my room, and heard it.. they would use it. cheers Wiz Great statement I may eat my own words tomorrow....after second round of measurements... |
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Post by mrholmes on May 23, 2020 8:04:08 GMT -6
I know the general audio guy on speaker correction used to be negative... But I am sure if anyone who doesn't like this software, came to my room, and heard it.. they would use it. cheers Wiz Great statement I may eat my own words tomorrow....after second round of measurements...
Did the second round and SW still says there is a narrow ditch at around 800 - 900 Hz and want to give + 6db which I have to pay with higher THR for the rest pretty impressive taht SR even can improve the low end a little. It sounds a bit more open, round and fuller without being hyped.
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Post by wiz on May 23, 2020 16:34:22 GMT -6
Great statement I may eat my own words tomorrow....after second round of measurements...
Did the second round and SW still says there is a narrow ditch at around 800 - 900 Hz and want to give + 6db which I have to pay with higher THR for the rest pretty impressive taht SR even can improve the low end a little. It sounds a bit more open, round and fuller without being hyped.
What microphone are you using to test? |
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Post by mrholmes on May 23, 2020 16:49:07 GMT -6
Did the second round and SW still says there is a narrow ditch at around 800 - 900 Hz and want to give + 6db which I have to pay with higher THR for the rest pretty impressive taht SR even can improve the low end a little. It sounds a bit more open, round and fuller without being hyped.
What microphone are you using to test?
I am using the Behringer ECM 8000 with calibration file.
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Post by wiz on May 23, 2020 17:26:00 GMT -6
That’s fine...I used a mic that originally came with ARC..with no calibration file...then the Sonarworks mic with its calibration file....not a huge difference .
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Post by Tbone81 on May 23, 2020 18:06:43 GMT -6
That’s fine...I used a mic that originally came with ARC..with no calibration file...then the Sonarworks mic with its calibration file....not a huge difference . . Hey Wiz, how do you like SW compared to ARC? I've been using ARC for years now, on v2.5 now, but am seriously interested in SW. Just not sure if its more of a lateral move. Especially with ARC 3.0 just being released. Thoughts? |
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Post by wiz on May 23, 2020 19:20:01 GMT -6
That’s fine...I used a mic that originally came with ARC..with no calibration file...then the Sonarworks mic with its calibration file....not a huge difference . . Hey Wiz, how do you like SW compared to ARC? I've been using ARC for years now, on v2.5 now, but am seriously interested in SW. Just not sure if its more of a lateral move. Especially with ARC 3.0 just being released. Thoughts? I posted some thoughts in the Sonarworks 4 thread.... I like you used ARC 2.5 forever... and demo'd 3. I tested both against Sonarworks 4 and bought it. It had far less top end smear, and low mid smear.... quite noticeable...and enough so that I opened my wallet...8) Cheers Wiz |
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Post by mrholmes on May 23, 2020 19:44:53 GMT -6
Hey Wiz, how do you like SW compared to ARC? I've been using ARC for years now, on v2.5 now, but am seriously interested in SW. Just not sure if its more of a lateral move. Especially with ARC 3.0 just being released. Thoughts? I posted some thoughts in the Sonarworks 4 thread.... I like you used ARC 2.5 forever... and demo'd 3. I tested both against Sonarworks 4 and bought it. It had far less top end smear, and low mid smear.... quite noticeable...and enough so that I opened my wallet...8) Cheers Wiz My ears tuned in more with Sonarworks4 today. I think now I can confirm what wiz is saying. It tightens up the image and the base response is more precise, less swamped. I already had a large sweet-spot now I have a even bigger one. I have no idea how they do it but with the HP profiles for the AKG K701 it's amazing how close monitors and HP sound now. My guesswork is they also measure LR speaker matching problems. And it seems they found a way to manipulate room phase issues. If your room is working - try it chances are there that you will like. But the best finding of today is that it truly makes a mix translate better on other systems my mouth stood open for a while. |
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