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Post by Guitar on Jun 24, 2020 18:35:32 GMT -6
I don't know what happened but it seems like thunderbolt got kind of standardized and worked out in the past couple years. Intel stopped charging a fee for manufacturers to license it back in 2018, so adoption of the protocol went up. Oh cool! Good information, thanks.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 25, 2020 14:06:26 GMT -6
Intel stopped charging a fee for manufacturers to license it back in 2018, so adoption of the protocol went up. Oh cool! Good information, thanks. And of course now that Apple is moving over to their own chips—and with the advent of USB4 soon—“Thunderbolt” as a soecific protocol may get dropped on the Mac platform. If that happens, I would imagine Thunderbolt won’t survive as a protocol. But my understanding is that USB4 will “read” Thunderbolt devices.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 26, 2020 0:05:32 GMT -6
UAD is fine on Windows if you are just using a Satellite for plugins. I know there are many people getting the interfaces to work, but it seems those who have issues getting it to work as it should are pretty common.
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Post by cyrano on Jun 29, 2020 12:56:04 GMT -6
Jun 25, 2020 22:06:26 GMT 2 the other mark williams said: And of course now that Apple is moving over to their own chips—and with the advent of USB4 soon—“Thunderbolt” as a soecific protocol may get dropped on the Mac platform. If that happens, I would imagine Thunderbolt won’t survive as a protocol. But my understanding is that USB4 will “read” Thunderbolt devices. The hardware is gone and replaced by USB-C. The protocol will be around for many years. It's included in USB-C and USB4. Hec, even old protocols like iSCSI are still used today. There's no reason not to include them.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 29, 2020 13:31:14 GMT -6
Jun 25, 2020 22:06:26 GMT 2 the other mark williams said: And of course now that Apple is moving over to their own chips—and with the advent of USB4 soon—“Thunderbolt” as a soecific protocol may get dropped on the Mac platform. If that happens, I would imagine Thunderbolt won’t survive as a protocol. But my understanding is that USB4 will “read” Thunderbolt devices. The hardware is gone and replaced by USB-C. The protocol will be around for many years. It's included in USB-C and USB4. Hec, even old protocols like iSCSI are still used today. There's no reason not to include them. USB-C is not a protocol. It's just an adapter size. USB 4 is not the same thing as Thunderbolt. Two different organizations design the specifics of each. USB 4 might accept Thunderbolt connection and transfer, but it is not the same thing as Thunderbolt itself living on. If new computers don't have Thunderbolt, then that protocol is dead, even if USB 4 communicates with TB devices.
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Post by cyrano on Jun 30, 2020 4:50:05 GMT -6
Of course, USB-C is not a protocol. It's hardware... And both USB-C and USB4 come out of the USB consortium. Both USB-C and USB4 are trademarked by the USB implementers forum, a part of the USB Consortium. There seem to be two groups active that don't agree about the future. Both USB-C and USB4 are basically, balanced serial connections. Both USB4 and USB-C can include a lot of protocols. That's the bad thing. You can't tell what they support exactly by looking at the plug. A great way to confuse the consumer. I guess the main difference of opinion between the two groups is that USB4 seems to have the advantage to not include controllers in the cables. With USB4 it's just a cable, like USB was before. With USB-C you sometimes need adapters for backward compatibility with fi, Firewire. USB4 doesn't do FW... Maybe the USB4 group didn't want to support screens for some reason (DisplayPort isn't included either yet, I think)? Anyhow, for the curious, here's both specs: www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdfwww.usb.org/sites/default/files/2019-09/USB-IF_USB4%20spec%20announcement_FINAL.pdfThere's so little difference between the two that one has to wonder why we end up with two different plugs... All of this isn't exactly set in stone. If a manufacturer doesn't follow the rules, all the USB Consortium can do, is revoke their license to use the name and the logo...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 30, 2020 12:35:09 GMT -6
Haven't read through the whole thread, so I probably missed it...but should I wait to buy a mac mini considering the new ARM processors? I assume that's a year away...Mac Rumors buyer's guide says buy now.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jun 30, 2020 16:35:12 GMT -6
I believe that plugin will need to be reprogrammed for the ARM based processors, but Logic should be good to go from day dot.
I guess the question is how long do you wan't your mac mini to last. If it is ~3-5 years then a current mac mini purchase is fine.
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2020 20:13:46 GMT -6
Haven't read through the whole thread, so I probably missed it...but should I wait to buy a mac mini considering the new ARM processors? I assume that's a year away...Mac Rumors buyer's guide says buy now. Wait till ARM if you can otherwise I’ll bet your Mac Mini is going to be unsupported after 3 major OS upgrades.
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Post by cyrano on Jul 1, 2020 5:26:47 GMT -6
The plans for continued support for Intel span at least six years, I've been told. Besides, a Mac won't stop working when it's unsupported. It'll just get old. Like we all do.
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Post by ericn on Jul 1, 2020 6:02:42 GMT -6
The plans for continued support for Intel span at least six years, I've been told. Besides, a Mac won't stop working when it's unsupported. It'll just get old. Like we all do. I have heard that tune before, it never really last that long. Apple is already shipping Mini’s with their own chips to developers. They also say machines with Apple chips will drop before the end of the year. You have to assume the mini will be one of the first. Even if they do “support” intel for 6 years resale value of intel machines will drop like a stone.
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Post by sirthought on Jul 1, 2020 6:28:17 GMT -6
I would not hold off on the Mac Mini John.
That ARM processor is going to throw the software developers for a curve. Also, I doubt we see a Mini with ARM for well more than a year.
You can get a nice 9 core processor now and it should last you six or more years.
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Post by Ward on Jul 1, 2020 7:24:59 GMT -6
The plans for continued support for Intel span at least six years, I've been told. Besides, a Mac won't stop working when it's unsupported. It'll just get old. Like we all do. My 1995 Powermac still works like the day I bought it. It's a funny quirky old friend.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 1, 2020 9:09:42 GMT -6
I’d just love to be able to speed up render times.
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Post by ericn on Jul 1, 2020 9:38:14 GMT -6
I’d just love to be able to speed up render times. Here is what makes buying a Apple computer when you know they are going to change chips a pain in the Ass. OK let’s say Apple supports intel for six years, What about your DAW ? How long are they going to write for a dead platform? Your interface manufacturer? Need a driver or mixer app? Your favorite plugin vendors? See no money in supporting a dead platform so all resources go to the new platform. Essentially what happens is this writing code for both Mac intel and Mac ARM is like adding a third platform to write for and support. Unless you can get a great deal buying a new intel Mac is going to be an adventure in abandonment. Everybody’s support is going to be different, after a year maybe 2 these vendors
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Post by christopher on Jul 1, 2020 17:32:28 GMT -6
It’s hard to figure out what they are doing over there. What about the folks who just spent $20k-$50k on a Mac Pro? Is ARM already so great that they can surpass those machines? They are acting like yep- it is! So what happens to those guys? Ouch. But I think/feel the ARM chips are all about battery life, not performance, so for the next few years they are going to sell the overpriced Intel machines, and software will continue supporting it? So if they can’t beat Intel then will they just keep Mac Pro going Mac OS? Very confusing!
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Post by popmann on Jul 1, 2020 18:05:35 GMT -6
I’d just love to be able to speed up render times. Ehh...ok. My 5min songs take 3-4 min on the same chip only clocked at like 4.1ghzx12. How long can your be taking? Now--if you mean things like individual freeze/renders...that's nearly instant where it used to be...not...but, that's also because the project is on an NVME drive. Hit bounce in place...yip...done--not even a progress bar...offline processing or whatever Cubase calls it where you can just click through the history of processes...is nearly as fast as you can click through them. My advice is BIG TIME that you buy what you need now. While it's fair to say that's ALWAYS my advice, here's the truth of this matter as I see it: -the first ARM MINIs will be like the 2014 mini vs 2012--a fraction of the previous gen CPU power -you have an expensive Thunderbolt interface. Will they continue Thunderbolt? I'm more hopeful that some here who assume they won't...but, it's a solid bet either way. -Cubase won't code for ARM. Avid may not. You using any other DAWs? LUNA will, but I'll get to that....Not for a long time, because they will cite it being the low end machines that they shouldn't be a professional DAW--like how Steinberg used to officially not support laptops at ALL. -As long as they support the Xeon machines, they'll support the intel chips in OSX. While MAYBE that's 5 years, I doubt it, because they won't have a Xeon replacement in ARM EVER...so, unless they axe the pro machiens completely...anyway--I would bet on the intel GPU being the reason it can't run a new version of OSX before it being an intel machine. +LUNA is potentially the exception--they COULD come out with ARM CPUs that have faster SINGLE CORE performance, which since LUNA only lets you use like 1/8th of your CPU--that might end up showing some fairly early beenfits--vs LUNA on the i7--NOT vs a normal DAW with a 512/1024 buffer on the i7. That will STILL win in number crunching. As to USB4 "reading" Thunderbolt...Ehh--it will NEVER have the latency and lack of CPU load of Thunderbolt. Whether it has the bandwidth and allows data to flow over it doesn't mean that's what it is...and for what Kennedy does--he needs THUNDERBOLT SSD chassis. Not USB4. NOW...I still have hope that Apple will actually one up Thunderbolt with their new proprietary ARM chipsets--but, if they do I assure you it will break compatibility and you'll have to buy another interface. Point being--buy what you need. The idea of waiting for a slow ARM for some potentially longer compatibility is sillier that waiting for computer tech is typically--which is already pretty silly. What happens when you get that and it's barely able to run your current projects? a Year and a half from now? There was a 1.4ghz dual core MINI for sale not long ago with a 3ghz dual core as the top of the line. This current model is like your 2012 i7--an exception to the MINI rule. Obvi--YMMV.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 1, 2020 18:22:46 GMT -6
Yeah - I’ve used a 2012 mini for 8 years and it seems to be running fine. I can get around pretty much all roadblocks one way or the other. Luna is a little persnickety. But when People ask for this change here, then this there etc...it ends up being a lot of mixdowns in a day.
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Post by cyrano on Jul 2, 2020 4:31:54 GMT -6
Even if they do “support” intel for 6 years resale value of intel machines will drop like a stone. The resale value of a Mac already dropped like a stone. Apple didn't need ARM to do that. There was a short while even a dead Mac fetched a decent price because Apple forced recyclers to shred everything. No dead boards for 3rd party repair anymore. So everyone started looking elsewhere to buy parts boards. Meanwhile, most 3rd party repair shops have given up repairing recent Macs, so 2nd hand and dead boards or Macs no longer fetch the higher prices they once got. Apple has been testing on ARM for over a decade now. They know what they're doing. But with over two billion iOS devices in existence, the Mac is only a tiny market. Be glad developers still need a Mac to produce iOS software. Even that will end one day.
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Post by cyrano on Jul 2, 2020 4:37:37 GMT -6
It’s hard to figure out what they are doing over there. What about the folks who just spent $20k-$50k on a Mac Pro? Is ARM already so great that they can surpass those machines? They are acting like yep- it is! So what happens to those guys? Ouch. But I think/feel the ARM chips are all about battery life, not performance, so for the next few years they are going to sell the overpriced Intel machines, and software will continue supporting it? So if they can’t beat Intel then will they just keep Mac Pro going Mac OS? Very confusing! Apple is good at stats. They know exactly how much power their users really need. ARM is probably good for 95% of the users. AV editors are in the remaining 5%. Roughly. Apple cares about AV editors, as they have TWO flagships in-house: Logic and FCP. That doesn't mean they'll design their entire range around it. A Macbook with an ARM should be a lot cheaper. Wait and see what the price will be. That'll show Apple's intentions. Either they up their margin, or they offer better prices...
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Post by cyrano on Jul 2, 2020 4:55:46 GMT -6
-As long as they support the Xeon machines, they'll support the intel chips in OSX. While MAYBE that's 5 years, I doubt it, because they won't have a Xeon replacement in ARM EVER...so, unless they axe the pro machiens completely...anyway--I would bet on the intel GPU being the reason it can't run a new version of OSX before it being an intel machine. As to USB4 "reading" Thunderbolt...Ehh--it will NEVER have the latency and lack of CPU load of Thunderbolt. Whether it has the bandwidth and allows data to flow over it doesn't mean that's what it is...and for what Kennedy does--he needs THUNDERBOLT SSD chassis. Not USB4. NOW...I still have hope that Apple will actually one up Thunderbolt with their new proprietary ARM chipsets--but, if they do I assure you it will break compatibility and you'll have to buy another interface. ARM is still gaining performance. Especially the GPU. A few years back, running a Raspberry Pi was a meager replacement for an X86. Limited to 4GB ram, nobody expected it to be a replacement for a "real" computer. Today, the RPi has entered 64 bit OS territory. At about the same sub 100$ price, with 8 GB ram. Compared to Apple, the RPi foundation is a tiny setup. If they can do it, with some support from Broadcom, imagine what Apple can do... As for USB4, I don't know. I can only read the specs and wait for reality to kick in. But on paper, TB is supported. Compare to FW. On a Mac, it was easy, always worked and it was fast. On Windows, it was a PITA. I'm seeing motherboards that sport TB, but not for audio (or video), apparently. Wait and see how it rolls out for ARM.
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Post by cyrano on Jul 2, 2020 5:36:24 GMT -6
Just after writing previous posts, I came across these benchmarks: browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?q=eperm-d995af6e2ef02771Not bad. Tested with Rosetta, of course. And that's a great result from software emulation... Mind you, the ARM in the developer machine isn't the final one. It's just the latest ARM in series production.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 2, 2020 12:05:23 GMT -6
It seems to me the biggest questions are: - How long is Apple going to support Intel processors?
- Can we believe them when they tell us a number (ericn suggests "no," based on prior experience as a vendor)
- How long will 3rd-party developers (for applications and plugins) continue to support Intel on Mac?
- How long will it be before ARM Macs rival current Xeons and i9s/i7s in terms of raw computing power?
- Which 3rd-party developers will just give up on Mac development at some point in the process?
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 2, 2020 17:09:25 GMT -6
It seems to me the biggest questions are: - How long is Apple going to support Intel processors?
- Can we believe them when they tell us a number (ericn suggests "no," based on prior experience as a vendor)
- How long will 3rd-party developers (for applications and plugins) continue to support Intel on Mac?
- How long will it be before ARM Macs rival current Xeons and i9s/i7s in terms of raw computing power?
- Which 3rd-party developers will just give up on Mac development at some point in the process?
Another question would be the likely hood of a blurring between iOS and macOS? The new macOS beta changes seem more setup for touch screen interfaces. It seems the ARM based macs will be able to run iOS apps without modification. For that to be even remotely workable i'd imagine that touch screen is a must. Apple will continue to look after the video and audio side. But it is not really their big money earner, if it had been the new mac pro would have been released back in 2013 instead of the trashcan. Other creative types do not need such powerful machines and touch screen for design work would be a welcome addition. I see the ARM based mac in a similar vein to the ARM based windows machines. Good for business but it will be a while before they are good for Video/Audio and other intensive workflows. How long before protools is ported to ARM? What about plugin manufacturers? Then their is drivers for hardware on top of the thunderbolt situation.....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 2, 2020 20:39:51 GMT -6
It seems to me the biggest questions are: - How long is Apple going to support Intel processors?
- Can we believe them when they tell us a number (ericn suggests "no," based on prior experience as a vendor)
- How long will 3rd-party developers (for applications and plugins) continue to support Intel on Mac?
- How long will it be before ARM Macs rival current Xeons and i9s/i7s in terms of raw computing power?
- Which 3rd-party developers will just give up on Mac development at some point in the process?
Another question would be the likely hood of a blurring between iOS and macOS? The new macOS beta changes seem more setup for touch screen interfaces. It seems the ARM based macs will be able to run iOS apps without modification. For that to be even remotely workable i'd imagine that touch screen is a must. Apple will continue to look after the video and audio side. But it is not really their big money earner, if it had been the new mac pro would have been released back in 2013 instead of the trashcan. Other creative types do not need such powerful machines and touch screen for design work would be a welcome addition. I see the ARM based mac in a similar vein to the ARM based windows machines. Good for business but it will be a while before they are good for Video/Audio and other intensive workflows. How long before protools is ported to ARM? What about plugin manufacturers? Then their is drivers for hardware on top of the thunderbolt situation..... Avid will port to PT as soon as they can, they know there is as much loyalty on the audio side to Mac as PT. The bigger question is how long before your interface works on ARM?
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