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Post by drumsound on Apr 29, 2020 16:46:05 GMT -6
I generally like your posts, but this is probably your best ever. I'm totally speculating in my head who the two people you reference are. Haha! Thanks! My lips are sealed.... It's a small world after all. I know better than to ask. Besides, its more fun for me to assume its someone who's records I dislike.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 8:18:38 GMT -6
I have to say that I appreciate that the guy who mostly makes robotic sounding digital music actually recorded this and I can turd polish! A lot of modern producers wouldn't have recorded anything for many parts and I would be stuck fishing around with samples and plugins that would sound a million times worse and I'd have go nuts or leave in a lot of lofi mud to keep any vibe. There are so many well-distributed metal and rock albums where the only drums recorded are the cymbals but they have decent budgets and aren't a guy hitting cymbals out of time to a drum machine in a garage in the 80s.
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Post by kevinnyc on Apr 30, 2020 11:08:09 GMT -6
Knowing when you’ve reached the point of diminishing returns is a good skill, in life as well as engineering/production.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 30, 2020 11:42:35 GMT -6
Knowing when you’ve reached the point of diminishing returns is a good skill, in life as well as engineering/production. it can be really hard to recognize in one’s life.
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Post by gwlee7 on Apr 30, 2020 12:35:30 GMT -6
RGO: Mixing life lessons in with our music.
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Post by kevinnyc on Apr 30, 2020 13:18:25 GMT -6
Music is life!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 30, 2020 16:30:55 GMT -6
The biggest trap I know is trying to make something sound like something other than what it is.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 30, 2020 16:43:38 GMT -6
THIS ^^^^
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Post by Chad on May 1, 2020 5:57:33 GMT -6
The biggest trap I know is trying to make something sound like something other than what it is. Such wisdom. This mindset goes way beyond music production. Thank you, Bob.
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Post by schmalzy on May 1, 2020 8:46:30 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. What sorts of things was he doing to pull more out of musicians? I find myself a lot of times with a musician who can't rise to the occasion. I'm thinking of a particular vocalist right this second but it's been every position in different groups at different times They can belt it on stage but just can't seem to find it in the studio. We've tried every version of monitoring (headphones, one ear off, no headphones with studio monitors blaring, extra people in the studio, no one else around, dark, bright, hot, cold, booze, [redacted other things], too much praise, withholding praise, talking about the song, imagining the scenario, watching scenes from films, and ANYTHING ELSE I COULD THINK OF but this person just can't bring it. What ways do you all coax more sauce and spice out of an artist?
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Post by EmRR on May 1, 2020 9:12:13 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. What sorts of things was he doing to pull more out of musicians? I find myself a lot of times with a musician who can't rise to the occasion. I'm thinking of a particular vocalist right this second but it's been every position in different groups at different times They can belt it on stage but just can't seem to find it in the studio. We've tried every version of monitoring (headphones, one ear off, no headphones with studio monitors blaring, extra people in the studio, no one else around, dark, bright, hot, cold, booze, [redacted other things], too much praise, withholding praise, talking about the song, imagining the scenario, watching scenes from films, and ANYTHING ELSE I COULD THINK OF but this person just can't bring it. What ways do you all coax more sauce and spice out of an artist? That all sounds like the type (I know them well) who are generally self-defeating in the first place, always finding an obstacle where there shouldn't be one. That's it's own case, the only thing that's ever worked there is to shock them into some unexpected reality, which doesn't always work. I would think you'd need a pliable and reasonably self-assured comfortable studio performer in the first place to pull much more out.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 1, 2020 9:30:36 GMT -6
A recording session needs to BE an occasion to rise to. Bringing in an audience can make a huge difference. That's what Marvin Gaye did for "What's Going On." High studio rates worked when artists couldn't manage a great performance in their home studio.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 1, 2020 10:02:04 GMT -6
What Bill and Bob said, but I’ll add one more important thing.
Time, first take time before another take, even a minute, one of the best things of the tape based era was the rewind time. That couple of minutes was great for getting the talent out of their own head. Things often look and sound better with time, advantage digital, not having to through out all those old takes, often the keeper is there we just miss it in the rush to perfection. Going back the next day and reviewing rejects can be a goldmine.
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Post by kevinnyc on May 1, 2020 10:10:36 GMT -6
The best producers I’ve encountered are vibe curators, creating the atmosphere in which participants naturally want to giver their best and, as importantly, are happy to do so and have fun while doing so...
Browbeating a performer into outdoing themselves is never without adverse consequences in the future I think.
Every person is unique, and finding what motivates them the most under studio conditions is an art in and of itself.
I laugh at how many times the keeper performance is the one you’ve told the vocalist you’re not recording...just letting them warm up and get in the vibe 😂.
What do I know though...some of my favorite music was born out of misery and psychological abuse 🧐
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Post by Guitar on May 1, 2020 12:18:30 GMT -6
Great thread. Choose your battles, don't try to turn people or performances into something they are not.
How about shoot first, ask questions later. Sort them out when they're dead. What I mean, is, record a ton of stuff and cherry pick. Rather than beating one dead horse. You can beat 10 horses and you have a better chance of having a good one once they're all dead.
I don't want to imply that anyone here is lazy, but in my life I have met some incredibly lazy music people. Work hard, work constantly. Anything less is suicide or personal failure. I doubt that anyone on RGO meets that description anyway, but it's no fun to work for, or with, people like that. I guess that goes back to choose your battles. Attention span and concerned effort are something I have personally had to work hard on increasing, so I am speaking to myself also.
You can only do so much in one day.
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Post by EmRR on May 1, 2020 12:48:22 GMT -6
How about shoot first, ask questions later. Sort them out when they're dead. What I mean, is, record a ton of stuff and cherry pick. Rather than beating one dead horse. You can beat 10 horses and you have a better chance of having a good one once they're all dead. The problems I see over and over with that are twofold (in paid sessions of limited budget): In the rush to record a million options, it's easy to miss some crucial connective variation. Like 45 guitar solo takes that are all phrased differently, so nothing cuts together. Or you did the bridge one way, but it doesn't work with the new chorus direction. It takes a lot more time to sort through and edit than it does to have a plan in the first place. Which circles back to the need for solid prepro. Everyone should know what they're doing, if not the session should maybe get called off, and THAT's the learn. Reschedule.
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Post by Guitar on May 1, 2020 12:52:26 GMT -6
How about shoot first, ask questions later. Sort them out when they're dead. What I mean, is, record a ton of stuff and cherry pick. Rather than beating one dead horse. You can beat 10 horses and you have a better chance of having a good one once they're all dead. The problems I see over and over with that are twofold (in paid sessions of limited budget): In the rush to record a million options, it's easy to miss some crucial connective variation. Like 45 guitar solo takes that are all phrased differently, so nothing cuts together. Or you did the bridge one way, but it doesn't work with the new chorus direction. It takes a lot more time to sort through and edit than it does to have a plan in the first place. Which circles back to the need for solid prepro. Everyone should know what they're doing, if not the session should maybe get called off, and THAT's the learn. Reschedule. I guess I was a little too vague there with the truism phrases. What I meant is, I think, finish as many "complete" things as you can, as quickly as you can. Don't do 20 takes of one part. Kind of the opposite of that. Kind of back to your pre-production emphasis. I can't think of too many times where I've done more than about 3 or 4 takes of any one track. Usually only 1 or 2, 3 or 4 if it's a "tough" one. Also, something I do. Leave the mistakes in. Not the horrible ones, but the minor to medium ones. Don't try to robotize everything with digital correction, or beating the performer over the head.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 1, 2020 12:54:04 GMT -6
You can only do so much in one day. And when you have a toddler, that amount is reduced by 97%.
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Post by drbill on May 1, 2020 13:23:50 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. What sorts of things was he doing to pull more out of musicians? <snip> What ways do you all coax more sauce and spice out of an artist? Things like phrasing a specific way that he heard in his head, that wasn't completely natural for the performer. The articulation or bending of notes. How long said bend takes to resolve. How short is the short note. When the vibrato should start on a note. All kinds of things that a musical perfectionist goes after. And I'm not talking about band or live musicians. I'm talking about seasoned LA studio pro's that are in the trenches every day of the year all day long. This producers deal was about getting his vision, not just a great part that a studio musician or vocalist handed him. There are all kinds of ways to pull things out of musicians / vocalists. Some are productive, some are counter productive long term, some build relationships, some destroy them. The bottom line is whether or not you can get what you want, and how far are you willing to go down various roads to achieve your vision. Where does a "compromised" performance that is half a performers natural inclination and half the producers initial vision equal something better than the producers vision? Judgement calls - all of em. And then....is that wrong? The producer is the one who has been eating, sleeping, breathing the project for 6 months - not the guy who walked thru the door to lay down a bass part. A great producer knows how to make great decisions. A great producer learns how to make performers WANT to achieve better than there natural inclinations, and bust their *** to give the producer what he wants. A great producer knows how to make the artist think / believe what they are performing is THEIR idea, while in fact, it's the producers idea. A great producer knows how to bring more out of a performer than they believe they can deliver. A great producer leaves the artist feeling like superman. A skilled producer can make great music that achieves a goal that is greater than the sum of the individual parts. It's quite a delicate line. One every producer has to negotiate on their own terms. One size absolutely does not fit all. It takes experience to know when good enough is good enough, and when good enough isn't. When to press on, and when to call it. It's a lifelong occupation.
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Post by Guitar on May 1, 2020 13:53:48 GMT -6
Just want to say I appreciate the expertise and experience level of the people on RGO. Gives me something to aspire to.
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Post by drbill on May 1, 2020 13:59:05 GMT -6
Can you imagine telling Abe L. how to play a freaking bass part. LOL. I can. I've been sitting in the engineers chair watching the producer do his thing. I mean, come ON, Abe? Yeah, it happened. And he (Abe) took it gracefully, and the part was better with the producers input. Me? I would have quit after the first take and got down on my knees in gratefulness.... LOL.
Or Joe S. how to play a piano part..... heh heh heh. The list goes on....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 1, 2020 18:34:50 GMT -6
Great producers are very skilled at extracting performances from musicians, singers, and recording engineers.
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Post by wiz on May 1, 2020 18:40:41 GMT -6
Great producers are very skilled at extracting performances from musicians, singers, and recording engineers. thats what I need......
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Post by chessparov on May 1, 2020 19:16:51 GMT -6
Me too. Being with a top class AE, in the Studio... Is on my bucket list. (along with the Memphis Horns:)) Chris
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Post by johneppstein on May 1, 2020 20:34:32 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task) Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too. I doubt BB King spent much time trying to play SRV. I doubt Keith Richards could play Clapton licks. I get what you’re saying, but I also get mrholmes point too. I obsess too much over parts and it paralyzes me. I need to get better at printing and moving on so the creative process isn’t killed. But I also thinks this brings up other issues for modern production. Sometimes I feel like I have to do every freaking thing...from making the coffee to playing every instrument to producing to mixing to mastering to marketing to art to SEO to well, you get the picture. It’s overwhelming. I’ve told this story before, but I remember watching this posthumous David Bowie documentary and it was Carlos Alomar, Robert Fripp, Niles Rogers etc sharing how Bowie would bring in little sketches of his famous songs and then they all said “he would talk about this this and this and I picked up the guitar and played [enter famous lick here].” And it just really hit me - No one (ok maybe Prince) does this all by themselves...surround yourself with talented people and let them help you. I’d love to do that - but I’m not 20 and hanging at bars trading joints for bass parts lol...I also lack an unlimited budget to hire guys...so for me - I start trying to do it all myself. Then things start to sound the same. Then I hate myself and think I suck and get paralyzed...it’s a conundrum. I think most of the time now I'm more interested in playing the song, not copying the arrangement perfectly. A lot of people have trouble differentiating between the two, but it seems to me that the guys who are really good are the guys that make the song their own. Sometimes I've even done stuff that's really weird, like re-imagining Peter Tosh's "Stop That Train" as a country ballad. But if you really feel the song just let it come out...
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