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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 11:04:54 GMT -6
Emily and I are about to start recording vocals for our Christmas Album. For the sake of getting the best performance we would like to be able to record our duets simultaneously and I'd love some thoughts on what microphone configuration to use. My room is not a good sounding room, but it's tame enough to disappear once reverb is added. Now I've done this once for a friend's album and I just didn't love the way it sounded when both singers starting singing together. They were placed at opposite ends of my room and as soon as they were singing together you could hear the reflections of my room in the microphones. My thought is to do a close stereo XY setup of my FleA 49s. This will limit phase issues and I think keep reflections to a minimum. THERE WILL BE BLEED! However, Emily and I are pros and I'm not worried too much about our voices bleeding together at that range. I suppose I could do a close AB configuration, but I'm still leaning toward XY. Obviously we can record one at a time if necessary, but I want to try this and imagine there will be some trial and error. Any thoughts?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2020 12:18:43 GMT -6
I wonder if you could fake a figure 8 pattern with the two set cardioid and face each other to sing. That would be like having a dual output mic, with ability to steer balance later. Might not be the sound you want, but the experiment is interesting. Though as soon as you pan away from mono you lose that.
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Post by damoongo on Apr 13, 2020 12:26:22 GMT -6
I agree with EmRR. Face to face (maybe slightly off from 180 degrees) has worked well for me.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2020 13:42:57 GMT -6
Just stand next to eachother with some angle. Don't over think it.
Embrace the bleed! Good bleed is...good bleed.
I mean if Tony Bennet can do it that way for his Duet albums with a band live in the room. You can too!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 13, 2020 13:47:32 GMT -6
I’m with EMMR also if you want to deaden the place on quick just throw up some blankets or even move a mattress in for some DIY absorbtion.
But remember it’s still all about the performance!
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Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2020 14:47:32 GMT -6
Face to face. As mentioned. Both Card. Absorbtion like a gobo or packing blanket hung over boom stand behind each of you would be good.
But, if you can handle it, and don't need too much in the way of corrective EQ or balancing (depends on song, style, etc..) ONE mic, Fig of 8, face to face = perfect. Old school, and you really gotta bring your A game. Might not be applicable for modern production techniques though. But sonically, awesome.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 14:48:58 GMT -6
Just stand next to eachother with some angle. Don't over think it. Embrace the bleed! Good bleed is...good bleed. I mean if Tony Bennet can do it that way for his Duet albums with a band live in the room. You can too! Yeah, we'll definitely try this method. Although, the big difference between Emily and I vs Tony and Amy is the sheer size of our voices. Although, we are crooning about half of the album so this will really work on those songs. I'll beef up the room with some blankets.
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Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2020 15:00:55 GMT -6
I'd hazard to guess that those "side by side" mics were placed that way more for the video than for anything else. For "control" your best bet is face to face with 2 cardio mics. For sound, the best bet is one mic if you can deal with the issues that brings (balance, EQ, compression, etc..) Depends as I mentioned on the overall vibe of the songs / vocals / album.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 15:05:36 GMT -6
Christmas Album. Some stuff leans classical, some is more American standards.
If I do back to back will I need to flip the phase on one of the mics?
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2020 15:08:56 GMT -6
I'd hazard to guess that those "side by side" mics were placed that way more for the video than for anything else. For "control" your best bet is face to face with 2 cardio mics. For sound, the best bet is one mic if you can deal with the issues that brings (balance, EQ, compression, etc..) Depends as I mentioned on the overall vibe of the songs / vocals / album. Actually, I pretty sure that is how they do it. There was a great article in TapeOP i think or maybe SOS with Tony's son who engineered that album. They do everything live like that. Tony wants real monitors and to be singing with the rhythm section live. They over dub the strings and horns later. Actually I found it!: www.soundonsound.com/people/dae-bennett-recording-tony-bennetts-one-my-baby-and-one-more-roadGonna re read it now later ha! I remember it so well because I found it very funny to read about about how the other artists took it and how scary it felt to them. either way, they are still in a nice sounding controlled space so not exactly what Vincent might need. You can do just fine with standing next to each other though. I mean shit this stuff is great sounding and there isn't a lot of isolation either: Like I said, bleed isn't bad if it's good bleed. In a lot of ways it can make things sound even more open. Trick is having nice microphones which I know Vincent has.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 15:21:30 GMT -6
I'd hazard to guess that those "side by side" mics were placed that way more for the video than for anything else. For "control" your best bet is face to face with 2 cardio mics. For sound, the best bet is one mic if you can deal with the issues that brings (balance, EQ, compression, etc..) Depends as I mentioned on the overall vibe of the songs / vocals / album. Actually, I pretty sure that is how they do it. There was a great article in TapeOP i think or maybe SOS with Tony's son who engineered that album. They do everything live like that. Tony wants real monitors and to be singing with the rhythm section live. They over dub the strings and horns later. Actually I found it!:https://www.soundonsound.com/people/dae-bennett-recording-tony-bennetts-one-my-baby-and-one-more-road Like I said, bleed isn't bad if it's good bleed. In a lot of ways it can make things sound even more open. Trick is having nice microphones which I know Vincent has. I'll read that article in a few. That video is AMAZING!!!!
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Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2020 15:38:19 GMT -6
I've done hundreds of vocal sessions with singers standing next to each other like the above video. Mostly with session singers, in a "group" situation who get the blend perfect right out of the gate. But, mediocre room where both vocals take "the lead" (duet) and need to be as isolated as possible - facing each other is the best option. IMO. [edit] - OK, hundredS might be an exaggeration. . But for sure well over a hundred. Too many to possibly count. 2, 3, ,4, even 5 vocalists together on 1 mic like the screenshot of the video. Perfect if you want a vocal group sound, and the singers can all blend how the producer wants it. Not great for when each is taking a lead. I'd usually have another mic setup for that, and they would pull out of the group, and over to the "solo" mic for that.
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Post by lpedrum on Apr 13, 2020 15:57:00 GMT -6
Just stand next to eachother with some angle. Don't over think it. Embrace the bleed! Good bleed is...good bleed. I mean if Tony Bennet can do it that way for his Duet albums with a band live in the room. You can too! Yeah, we'll definitely try this method. Although, the big difference between Emily and I vs Tony and Amy is the sheer size of our voices. Although, we are crooning about half of the album so this will really work on those songs. I'll beef up the room with some blankets.
Check out THIS LINK for cheap sound deadening blankets. They already come with grommets. If you're willing to put modest size hooks in the ceiling you can easily take them up and down--that's what I do.
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Post by chessparov on Apr 13, 2020 15:57:09 GMT -6
It worked "OK" for The Everly's. And they sold a few records too! Chris
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 13, 2020 16:47:04 GMT -6
I've done hundreds of vocal sessions with singers standing next to each other like the above video. Mostly with session singers, in a "group" situation who get the blend perfect right out of the gate. But, mediocre room where both vocals take "the lead" (duet) and need to be as isolated as possible - facing each other is the best option. IMO. [edit] - OK, hundredS might be an exaggeration. . But for sure well over a hundred. Too many to possibly count. 2, 3, ,4, even 5 vocalists together on 1 mic like the screenshot of the video. Perfect if you want a vocal group sound, and the singers can all blend how the producer wants it. Not great for when each is taking a lead. I'd usually have another mic setup for that, and they would pull out of the group, and over to the "solo" mic for that. Definitely is going to depend on the vocalists themselves and the overall arrangement I'd agree 100% with that. I tend to not like the facing eachother way as it can be even weirder phase wise. Still I'd bet Vincent and his lady can play with all of that and find something that works really good.
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Post by reddirt on Apr 13, 2020 19:45:50 GMT -6
Which ever way you roll with mic placement Vincent, I would try a blanket option , particularly hanging them a little further away if they are behind and to the sides of the mics; IME close blankets can give a tone that can suffocate and cruel your ability to perform. Where any reflections hit the direct pick up pattern i.e. from behind the singers , I would hang them closer. Secondary waves of blanket further back in the room to reduce build up in the room may be cool too If you can get some kind of multi-faced (not flat) surface on the ceiling that quasi diffuses without further dulling the sound may be an option also. In the DIY vernacular -"you're just going to have to suck it and see".
Cheers and best of luck, Ross
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Post by svart on Apr 13, 2020 20:31:10 GMT -6
I wonder if you could fake a figure 8 pattern with the two set cardioid and face each other to sing. That would be like having a dual output mic, with ability to steer balance later. Might not be the sound you want, but the experiment is interesting. Though as soon as you pan away from mono you lose that. I've tried this, but with a few feet between the mics. It does work but if the room is too small you can get strange reflections from behind each other. Either deaden the areas right behind the singers, or set them at an angle in the room so that the walls reflect at strange angles behind them.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 13, 2020 22:02:42 GMT -6
I wonder if you could fake a figure 8 pattern with the two set cardioid and face each other to sing. That would be like having a dual output mic, with ability to steer balance later. Might not be the sound you want, but the experiment is interesting. Though as soon as you pan away from mono you lose that. I've tried this, but with a few feet between the mics. It does work but if the room is too small you can get strange reflections from behind each other. Either deaden the areas right behind the singers, or set them at an angle in the room so that the walls reflect at strange angles behind them. Any space between mics kills my concept. I’m talking about making a virtual figure 8 out of a pair of coincident mics. Just to be clear. That’ll give a tight pattern when gain matched, and ability to steer the pattern as needed for balance. No phase issues. You can even automate phase flips if there are lead vocal roles that swap performers. Sure, pick the best overall room orientation, maybe pointing into corners plus hung blankets.
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 13, 2020 22:10:37 GMT -6
I know you love your condensers, but you have such a great voice, I’m sure you would sound good on anything. Have you thought about trying some good dynamics out?
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 13, 2020 22:18:17 GMT -6
I know you love your condensers, but you have such a great voice, I’m sure you would sound good on anything. Have you thought about trying some good dynamics out? Don’t really have any great dynamics. Just the usual suspects; SM57, SM58, Beta 58, and more for photos than anything, a Super 55. Coincidentally we recorded a concert tonight that will premier on our YouTube channel next Friday. It was all Beta 58s.
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Post by drumsound on Apr 16, 2020 14:26:42 GMT -6
Good suggestions above. Packing blankets are your friend FOR SURE
I've had some good success putting the singer at a 90º angle. On mic in figure 8 with the other in its null in cardioid, putting the singer on the figure 8 basically in the cardioid null. Play a little with spacing if needed and you should get good results.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 3, 2020 10:51:26 GMT -6
I went with my gut and set up the FleA 49s in XY and we recorded “O Holy Night” and “Marshmallow World” for the Christmas Album this weekend. This set up really shined on “Marshmallow World” where Emily and I could get close in and croon about 14-16” from the mics. “O Holy Night” was a little trickier since we have to be about 24” away to not overload and distort the FleA49 with both of us bellowing at 120 dB or so at points of the song... anyway. I got a lot more room sound than I would have liked, but I muted the secondary mics during each other’s solos and it really isn’t bad when both of us were singing simultaneously. So I think this set up is really going to work, especially since the performances were really in sync while recording this way. I know Emily absolutely prefers to record this way. http://instagr.am/p/CDWg32Chk5j
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 3, 2020 10:57:23 GMT -6
Being comfortable and getting the best performance beats everything else imo. Glad you‘ve found what works!
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 3, 2020 11:09:17 GMT -6
Being comfortable and getting the best performance beats everything else imo. Glad you‘ve found what works! This weekend's session actually made the argument with myself and Emily for getting a second U67 to record classical pieces like this. The U67 takes a little bit more volume than my FleA 49 does and has a pad to boot. This is especially true when Emily and I let go with crazy squillo. The U67 doesn't enhance it as much and feels more natural, which the 49 it can easily become too much. I feel like we could have come in a little closer with U67s vs the FleA 49s, and cut out a bit more of the room noise. Time table and budget being what it is, that won't happen this time around, but I think I provided a valid enough reason to Emily for it in the future. But with Marshmallow World you get that classic Christmas Album sound with the FleA 49s.
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Post by drumsound on Aug 3, 2020 14:10:08 GMT -6
Being comfortable and getting the best performance beats everything else imo. Glad you‘ve found what works! This weekend's session actually made the argument with myself and Emily for getting a second U67 to record classical pieces like this. The U67 takes a little bit more volume than my FleA 49 does and has a pad to boot. This is especially true when Emily and I let go with crazy squillo. The U67 doesn't enhance it as much and feels more natural, which the 49 it can easily become too much. I feel like we could have come in a little closer with U67s vs the FleA 49s, and cut out a bit more of the room noise. Time table and budget being what it is, that won't happen this time around, but I think I provided a valid enough reason to Emily for it in the future. But with Marshmallow World you get that classic Christmas Album sound with the FleA 49s. Is it imperative that you're both singing on the same model mic? Even though you're using a coincident pair, its not really a 'stereo' recording.
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