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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 12, 2020 9:51:03 GMT -6
Leaked NEJM study (n=62) summary allegedly shows negative outcomes with HCL. And a large scale (n=900k) meta analysis of HCL use with RA folks shows HCL quite safe for short term use, but HCL and azithromycin up to 2x risk of heart related mortality. Bleh. 👎 ugh. (Possibly) bad news, then. But this is why we do studies. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2020 22:56:44 GMT -6
Trump was right about China. In what way? PM me if it's not appropriate for the forum. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2020 23:10:20 GMT -6
Azithromycin is an IL6 inhibitor. The main way people die from COVID19 is from ARDS caused by a cytokine storm, and IL6 inhibitors can prevent this. Does that change your view? PS. HCL is an IL6 inhibitor also PPS. There are other IL6 inhibitors being tested. The problem is that you need the right IL6 inhibitors and you need to administer it at the right time at the right dose, figure in that in general and the type of infection what are the possible side effects. Then throw in the fact that while you studied all this the virus probably evolved. It’s just not all that easy. Now let’s add the fact that using your best weapon might just have made the next new virus harder to contain. This why you don’t spend your time social distancing in a text chain with virologist, pharmacists and world immunologists ( who you owe your life to) as your all drinking. Um, "HCL" is not a drug. The drug is Hydroxyquinoline. There's no "C" in that abbreviation and using it in this sense is confusing because HCL refers to HCL Technologies, a corporate group with an active healthcare division. HCL also refers to Hydrogen Chloride, AKA hydrochloric acid.
Hydroxyquinoline is also relatively toxic and is known to trigger heart attacks - not what a person suffering from the virus needs!
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 13, 2020 23:24:14 GMT -6
Azithromycin is an IL6 inhibitor. The main way people die from COVID19 is from ARDS caused by a cytokine storm, and IL6 inhibitors can prevent this. Does that change your view? PS. HCL is an IL6 inhibitor also PPS. There are other IL6 inhibitors being tested. Well, I guess that technically "HCL" (hydrochloric acid) is an antiviral in that HCL destroys most organic tissue it comes in contact with, but I doubt it would make a good cure. HCL is not a proper abbreviation for hydroxyquinoline,unless there's a "c" in that word somewhere that I'm not seeing.
Btw, hydroxyquinoline is also quite toxic and has been found to trigger heart attacks.
As to azithromycin, it's generally not a good idea to distribute antibiotics willy-nilly for maladies they're not proven to work on. That's how we breed antibiotic resistant "superbugs". Flesh eating fasciitis, anybody? Superstrep?
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 14, 2020 7:38:12 GMT -6
Well, I was talking about hydroxychloroquine, so there's that.
Azithromycin is basically useless as an antibiotic already and generally isn't prescribed solo. On the other hand, the macrolide antibiotics are known to have anti-inflammatory properties and are used as immunomodulators in other inflammatory conditions like Crohn's disease or rheumatoid arthritis.
Jeez dude.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 9:03:57 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 14, 2020 9:37:18 GMT -6
Azithromycin is an IL6 inhibitor. The main way people die from COVID19 is from ARDS caused by a cytokine storm, and IL6 inhibitors can prevent this. Does that change your view? PS. HCL is an IL6 inhibitor also PPS. There are other IL6 inhibitors being tested. Well, I guess that technically "HCL" (hydrochloric acid) is an antiviral in that HCL destroys most organic tissue it comes in contact with, but I doubt it would make a good cure. HCL is not a proper abbreviation for hydroxyquinoline,unless there's a "c" in that word somewhere that I'm not seeing.
Btw, hydroxyquinoline is also quite toxic and has been found to trigger heart attacks.
As to azithromycin, it's generally not a good idea to distribute antibiotics willy-nilly for maladies they're not proven to work on. That's how we breed antibiotic resistant "superbugs". Flesh eating fasciitis, anybody? Superstrep?
From what I was told after sharing some of your same concerns is there were 2 reasons for the azirhromycin. 1. It was simply trying anything to simply treat the symptoms. 2 there was anacdotical evidence that the combination worked, so others were following the leader in hopes it might work. Trust me John in desperation even the best MD’s will give just about anything a try. I have been told by 2 of the best surgeons in their respected specialties who where residents at NYU that on a normal day it was a war zone so imagine with this what it’s like. Your going to try anything and any combination. |
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Post by seawell on Apr 14, 2020 11:38:53 GMT -6
For what it's worth, I took hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as part of an off label treatment for lyme disease + babesia about 3 years ago and it was an absolute life saver for me. It is already used widely for things that have nothing to do with malaria such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis so until there are better options I have no issue with giving doctors the ability to use it at their discretion. It would be nice if remdesivir and other options come on board soon so doctors can have options depending on any pre-existing conditions such as heart disease. I don't have much hope in the vaccine unfortunately, they weren't able to pull it off with SARS or MERS and Ebola took 5 years.
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Post by Ward on Apr 14, 2020 11:56:00 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 14, 2020 13:29:20 GMT -6
Well, I guess that technically "HCL" (hydrochloric acid) is an antiviral in that HCL destroys most organic tissue it comes in contact with, but I doubt it would make a good cure. HCL is not a proper abbreviation for hydroxyquinoline,unless there's a "c" in that word somewhere that I'm not seeing.
Btw, hydroxyquinoline is also quite toxic and has been found to trigger heart attacks.
As to azithromycin, it's generally not a good idea to distribute antibiotics willy-nilly for maladies they're not proven to work on. That's how we breed antibiotic resistant "superbugs". Flesh eating fasciitis, anybody? Superstrep?
From what I was told after sharing some of your same concerns is there were 2 reasons for the azirhromycin. 1. It was simply trying anything to simply treat the symptoms. 2 there was anacdotical evidence that the combination worked, so others were following the leader in hopes it might work. Trust me John in desperation even the best MD’s will give just about anything a try. I have been told by 2 of the best surgeons in their respected specialties who where residents at NYU that on a normal day it was a war zone so imagine with this what it’s like. Your going to try anything and any combination. Also, as I'm sure you're aware Ericn, people often get superimposed bacterial infections from viral illnesses. I'm not saying thats the case here, because I don't know, but it's food for thought and just goes to show that "its complicated". I agree with John that antibiotics are over used, and that is indeed very dangerous, but IME the over prescription of antibiotics has more to do with Primary Care MD's and general practitioners handing them out like candy. In the ICU, and even on a general inpatient hospital floor, antibiotics are usually given much more deliberately, and with greater precision. I say usually because all the normal caveats apply. |
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Post by ericn on Apr 14, 2020 14:38:57 GMT -6
From what I was told after sharing some of your same concerns is there were 2 reasons for the azirhromycin. 1. It was simply trying anything to simply treat the symptoms. 2 there was anacdotical evidence that the combination worked, so others were following the leader in hopes it might work. Trust me John in desperation even the best MD’s will give just about anything a try. I have been told by 2 of the best surgeons in their respected specialties who where residents at NYU that on a normal day it was a war zone so imagine with this what it’s like. Your going to try anything and any combination. Also, as I'm sure you're aware Ericn, people often get superimposed bacterial infections from viral illnesses. I'm not saying thats the case here, because I don't know, but it's food for thought and just goes to show that "its complicated". I agree with John that antibiotics are over used, and that is indeed very dangerous, but IME the over prescription of antibiotics has more to do with Primary Care MD's and general practitioners handing them out like candy. In the ICU, and even on a general inpatient hospital floor, antibiotics are usually given much more deliberately, and with greater precision. I say usually because all the normal caveats apply. Yeah I forgot about the fact that a virus can take down the whole immune system and make you more susceptible to other bacteria ( one of my mothers best friends a BacT prof would kill me for that). You don’t have to tell me about over use of antibiotics, my battle with MSRA is all I need to remind me! A pulmonary doc was telling my wife the other day that they see little if any Benefit from the cocktail. In fact they have seen far more cardiac issues. It will get more interesting here in the next couple of weeks, KU got the big Abbot machine and it’s almost ready to go on line. Stay safe my friend I’m hearing to many stories of respetory techs going down with this one! |
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 14, 2020 16:25:38 GMT -6
Also, as I'm sure you're aware Ericn, people often get superimposed bacterial infections from viral illnesses. I'm not saying thats the case here, because I don't know, but it's food for thought and just goes to show that "its complicated". I agree with John that antibiotics are over used, and that is indeed very dangerous, but IME the over prescription of antibiotics has more to do with Primary Care MD's and general practitioners handing them out like candy. In the ICU, and even on a general inpatient hospital floor, antibiotics are usually given much more deliberately, and with greater precision. I say usually because all the normal caveats apply. Yeah I forgot about the fact that a virus can take down the whole immune system and make you more susceptible to other bacteria ( one of my mothers best friends a BacT prof would kill me for that). You don’t have to tell me about over use of antibiotics, my battle with MSRA is all I need to remind me! A pulmonary doc was telling my wife the other day that they see little if any Benefit from the cocktail. In fact they have seen far more cardiac issues. It will get more interesting here in the next couple of weeks, KU got the big Abbot machine and it’s almost ready to go on line. Stay safe my friend I’m hearing to many stories of respetory techs going down with this one! Thanks, definitely trying to keep safe. I just took a covid antibody screening test to see if I've been exposed. It's part of a study at my hospital. It'll be interesting to see how many of us (asymptomatic people) already have antibodies to it. The pulmonologists at my hospital are unimpressed with the Chloroquine cocktail. They're more hopeful of a remdesivir study that we're conducting on our patients. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 14, 2020 18:03:41 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 14, 2020 19:36:38 GMT -6
For what it's worth, I took hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as part of an off label treatment for lyme disease + babesia about 3 years ago and it was an absolute life saver for me. It is already used widely for things that have nothing to do with malaria such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis so until there are better options I have no issue with giving doctors the ability to use it at their discretion. It would be nice if remdesivir and other options come on board soon so doctors can have options depending on any pre-existing conditions such as heart disease. I don't have much hope in the vaccine unfortunately, they weren't able to pull it off with SARS or MERS and Ebola took 5 years. Well, the knowledge gained from ebola advanced the field of virus vaccines and treatments considerably. I have solid inside knowledge that there have been vaccines for Covid 19 in human testing trials for about a month now, at least. Of course if any of them work out it will still take months to get through the FDA red tape....
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 14, 2020 20:48:36 GMT -6
The Epoch Times is a propaganda organ of Falun Gong, which makes anything they say highly suspect, particularly if it involves China.
Took me about 30 seconds to spot check that. If you go to the Youtube page for that vid you'll see a number of Chinese posts that would appear to bear that out.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 14, 2020 22:05:45 GMT -6
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Post by donr on Apr 15, 2020 1:22:01 GMT -6
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 15, 2020 8:34:32 GMT -6
You're right but it wouldn't have mattered in the least if the whole world was screaming to the top of their lungs about a virus. It would have had zero airtime. The press knew about this when the government did (back in November). The impeachment hearings started on Dec 4th. And it was wall to wall, 24/7, even before that really when congressmen where holed up in a basement asking questions. No room for anything else on the news, nothing. Politics aside, I'm guessing we'd be hard pressed to find a single lawmaker on either side who actually gives a rats ass about us. Politics is the biggest business in town. Congressmen don't make enough in their salaries to become multi-millionaires yet most of them are. Hmmm, wonder why?? |
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Post by Ward on Apr 15, 2020 9:49:19 GMT -6
Many thanks, Don! It's hard to find something acceptable by all sides. |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 15, 2020 14:23:05 GMT -6
Well, it's a legit organization, but that's just an op-ed piece and it's dead wrong on a number of counts. If you want to discuss it we should take it to PM because there's too much that might be viewed as "political" in what I have to say - any discussion of Trump would probably trigger the "no politics" rule although most of this transcends normal (what is "normal" these days,. anyway?) political discourse.
The one major point that the article totally ignores - and isn't really "political" in the normal sense - is that China has a somewhat unique "frenemy" status with the USA - they need us at least as much as we need them and they are not likely to want to do anything to seriously disrupt our economy. The other point they ignore is that the reason China has taken over most manufacturing is because we don't want it. We could not go back to a manufacturing economy because it would not be economically feasible, unless we were to institute a return to slave labor.
There is, however, another large country with virtually no real civilian manufacturing capacity that has been a long term enemy of both the US and China and just loves to make trouble for countries doing better than themselves.
And that's all I'm willing to say about it in the open forum.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 15, 2020 14:26:46 GMT -6
You're right but it wouldn't have mattered in the least if the whole world was screaming to the top of their lungs about a virus. It would have had zero airtime. The press knew about this when the government did (back in November). The impeachment hearings started on Dec 4th. And it was wall to wall, 24/7, even before that really when congressmen where holed up in a basement asking questions. No room for anything else on the news, nothing. Politics aside, I'm guessing we'd be hard pressed to find a single lawmaker on either side who actually gives a rats ass about us. Politics is the biggest business in town. Congressmen don't make enough in their salaries to become multi-millionaires yet most of them are. Hmmm, wonder why?? And all the congressmen who aren't lining their pockets and stuffing their (offshore) matresses are just damn commies, right?
I could name quite a few who DO give a rat's ass.
BTW, Geoffrey Ingersoll is the main guy behind The Daily Caller, which is a right wing propaganda organization.
From the Daily Caller Wikipedia article:
Not a reliable, unbiased source.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 16:53:36 GMT -6
^
really, taking quotes from wikipedia..
i would say most if not all 'news', papers /networks have printed stories they've had to retract due to them not being factual.
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Post by svart on Apr 15, 2020 17:13:59 GMT -6
All this other stuff aside, what I find fascinating is that this type of betacoronavirus is not native to the region around Wuhan. It MUST have been transported there for patient zero to have caught it there. Also, the accepted "Patient zero" was/is a researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The Wuhan Institute of Virology was also the source of two accidental SARS outbreaks in the last decade. Multiple researchers have been exposed to pathogens there and have had to go into quarantine due to lax methodology.
But here's where things get even more interesting.. There were no known bats of the type to carry this disease at the Wuhan wet market available for purchase, nor were there pangolins at the time of the first cases. Multiple cases were subsequently discovered at the regional hospital, which is a block away from the market and the institute.
Also, the institute had recently hired a number of researchers to look into new types of coronaviruses they had collected only weeks to a month prior.
It sounds to me like a perfect storm of new and ill-understood versions of viruses, new and inexperienced researchers, and poor work protocols allowed this to get out into the open. From there, the political machine in china did what it had done many times before during SARS and SADS outbreaks, it lied and covered things up.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 15, 2020 17:20:45 GMT -6
^ really, taking quotes from wikipedia.. i would say most if not all 'news', papers /networks have printed stories they've had to retract due to them not being factual. Since Wikipedia is crowd sourced and constantly edited it can generally be relied on for that type of information since it has no political bias, at least in the conventional sense.
If some publication is a propaganda organ for a political entity they WILL tell you, and without regard for what entity on what side it happens to be. For example, if I look up "Daily KOS" one of the first things it says is that it a "center-left" publication, which is pretty accurate.
The entry for "The Daily Caller", however, is full of pretty glaring red flags, such as its affiliation with unabashed racists.
However, there are many other subjects on which Wikipedia is not particularly reliable - some of their science is a bit simplisticand occasionally a bit inaccurate, and their content on subjects such as popular artists seems sometimes to be subject to editing by said artist's promo machines. But inaccurate reporting about pop stars isn't really dangerous to anyone, and it isn't going to kill anyone if their reportting about the history of Fender is a bit off at times.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 15, 2020 17:35:29 GMT -6
All this other stuff aside, what I find fascinating is that this type of betacoronavirus is not native to the region around Wuhan. It MUST have been transported there for patient zero to have caught it there. Also, the accepted "Patient zero" was/is a researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The Wuhan Institute of Virology was also the source of two accidental SARS outbreaks in the last decade. Multiple researchers have been exposed to pathogens there and have had to go into quarantine due to lax methodology. But here's where things get even more interesting.. There were no known bats of the type to carry this disease at the Wuhan wet market available for purchase, nor were there pangolins at the time of the first cases. Multiple cases were subsequently discovered at the regional hospital, which is a block away from the market and the institute. Also, the institute had recently hired a number of researchers to look into new types of coronaviruses they had collected only weeks to a month prior. If true that's pretty interesting. I'd like to see (non-politicized) attributions. It also agrees in some ways with my personal theory of how this started, which involves another prominent geopolitical entity known for supporting advanced weaponized scientific research, mounting clandestine (and deadly) black ops on other countries' soil utilizing "exotic" materials, and for being a well known historical enemy of both the US and China.
In short, I think the Chinese were patsies in this.
Oh, you mean just like what happened here over the last several months?
I think that the big question that everybody's missing here is "Who benefits?". And the answer sure as hell is neither the Chinese nor the USA.
The one big winner is obvious to those with their eyes open.
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