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Post by chessparov on Mar 29, 2020 1:14:38 GMT -6
I wonder how well the "Deluxe" version ($500), of the GAP-73, would compare to all these discussed?
I also agree that the U87ai/Demeter combo sounds and goes great together... Chris
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 29, 2020 2:05:12 GMT -6
I wonder how well the "Deluxe" version ($500), of the GAP-73, would compare to all these discussed? I also agree that the U87ai/Demeter combo sounds and goes great together... Chris I heard the Gap premier and thought it sounded very good. I didn’t compare it directly to anything. I used it as some guy’s studio and thought it sounded fine, it sounded nevish to me. For the price it’ll get you close enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 2:24:00 GMT -6
I wonder how well the "Deluxe" version ($500), of the GAP-73, would compare to all these discussed? I also agree that the U87ai/Demeter combo sounds and goes great together... Chris I heard the Gap premier and thought it sounded very good. I didn’t compare it directly to anything. I used it as some guy’s studio and thought it sounded fine, it sounded nevish to me. For the price it’ll get you close enough. the GAP 73 premier sounds very close to the AMS version from some samples online. I wonder how well the "Deluxe" version ($500), of the GAP-73, would compare to all these discussed? I also agree that the U87ai/Demeter combo sounds and goes great together... Chris I also bought one recently just few days ago. I haven't even opened it. But like I said it was close to ams
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 29, 2020 5:03:06 GMT -6
I heard the Gap premier and thought it sounded very good. I didn’t compare it directly to anything. I used it as some guy’s studio and thought it sounded fine, it sounded nevish to me. For the price it’ll get you close enough. the GAP 73 premier sounds very close to the AMS version from some samples online. I wonder how well the "Deluxe" version ($500), of the GAP-73, would compare to all these discussed? I also agree that the U87ai/Demeter combo sounds and goes great together... Chris I also bought one recently just few days ago. I haven't even opened it. But like I said it was close to ams Yeah it seemed to be in the "cleaner" Neve clone category to me so closer to the AMS in that sense which is fine by me! I think a 4 channel 1u rack of the preamps for a little over 1k would be awesome for drum tracking, kind of like the Warm Audio 412.
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 29, 2020 6:27:09 GMT -6
Golden Age is vastly underrated. Even without the Carnhill upgrade their pre sounds excellent.
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Post by Ward on Mar 29, 2020 8:49:50 GMT -6
Thanks, Ragan.
Yes; that's all it was -- just having fun with the notion that a unit that cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Stam would "sound more expensive"...cognitive bias stuff.
Tough crowd...
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). You're not alone. I'm also happy with my Dizengoff preamps despite many having technical and QA issues with them. Mine have been perfect ever since I got them and the D4 is a fantastic mate to an older Neumann U87!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 29, 2020 9:02:13 GMT -6
Thanks, Ragan.
Yes; that's all it was -- just having fun with the notion that a unit that cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Stam would "sound more expensive"...cognitive bias stuff.
Tough crowd...
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). Well, I guess I like “grainy and dull” then. These kinds of comments are why I hated Gearslutz. The passive aggressive backhanded knock. I have owned many Sowters. I can tell you from 20 years experience that these don’t sound grainy and dull. That is not a subjective opinion. If you like the D4, then most likely you equate brightness with detail.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 9:02:37 GMT -6
Thanks, Ragan.
Yes; that's all it was -- just having fun with the notion that a unit that cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Stam would "sound more expensive"...cognitive bias stuff.
Tough crowd...
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). DIZENGOff d4 sounded nice but its a tube based pre. ive seen lack of support with their broken products, i was like NO thanks. Reliability is very crucial if something breaks down. im a bit worried about Stam too in longer term the way their business structure is setup but so far they seem to deliver. i prefer the sowters version over others. i believe there is something special in low end that trumps all the other 73 clones with carnhills. now this is all subjective but i trust my ears. Avalons, never been impressed by them, always thought they were overpriced mediocre pres.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 9:38:11 GMT -6
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). Well, I guess I like “grainy and dull” then. These kinds of comments are why I hated Gearslutz. The passive aggressive backhanded knock. I have owned many Sowters. I can tell you from 20 years experience that these don’t sound grainy and dull. That is not a subjective opinion. If you like the D4, then most likely you equate brightness with detail. its crazy cause everything he dislike is what i prefer in the 73. grainy and dull is the wrong label. i would call it dark and vintagey. it kinda reminds me of the nirvana "nevermind", or GNR "appetite for destruction" type dark sound.
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Post by ericn on Mar 29, 2020 10:06:47 GMT -6
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). Well, I guess I like “grainy and dull” then. These kinds of comments are why I hated Gearslutz. The passive aggressive backhanded knock. I have owned many Sowters. I can tell you from 20 years experience that these don’t sound grainy and dull. That is not a subjective opinion. If you like the D4, then most likely you equate brightness with detail. This where evaluation of gear becomes so uneven, we use language that we don’t have a concrete standard to describe our personal experience. Throw in the fact that I will wager that maybe 10% of us have ever used the original in good condition and it all can become a huge emotional cluster F^*k. Then we add in the true to the original vs what I like best debate and it’s even more of a cluster. A 10 series Neve should be big and a simple way to add excitement just put on the White Fleetwood Mac Album, that’s the Sound City Neve in all it’s glory. That brings up an advantage the audiophile crowd has, the can reference a track and apply their language to that track and others can play that track and go from there. The Sowter’s of late do to my ears come closer to the original, it brings the bigness and the excitement also a slight shimmer that made me fall for the Neve sound 30 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 10:45:57 GMT -6
Well, I guess I like “grainy and dull” then. These kinds of comments are why I hated Gearslutz. The passive aggressive backhanded knock. I have owned many Sowters. I can tell you from 20 years experience that these don’t sound grainy and dull. That is not a subjective opinion. If you like the D4, then most likely you equate brightness with detail. This where evaluation of gear becomes so uneven, we use language that we don’t have a concrete standard to describe our personal experience. Throw in the fact that I will wager that maybe 10% of us have ever used the original in good condition and it all can become a huge emotional cluster F^*k. Then we add in the true to the original vs what I like best debate and it’s even more of a cluster. A 10 series Neve should be big and a simple way to add excitement just put on the White Fleetwood Mac Album, that’s the Sound City Neve in all it’s glory. That brings up an advantage the audiophile crowd has, the can reference a track and apply their language to that track and others can play that track and go from there. The Sowter’s of late do to my ears come closer to the original, it brings the bigness and the excitement also a slight shimmer that made me fall for the Neve sound 30 years ago. Like i said the sowter is something special, not sure how they pulled it off but they got it right. they should trademark and sell it to others. At some point, I stopped caring how it compared to the originals cause it sounded damn good on its own merit even if its slightly different. The low end is tighter, dare i say even exceeds the vintage? Agreed on the bigness and excitement thats exactly what i thought about it, thats where everyone else is falling short
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 29, 2020 12:13:24 GMT -6
I think Chad was just being funny...but I don’t hear them as dark at all. I hear them as more neutral - less of that directness in the 900-4K range. In all honesty, I’ve kind’ve lost a lot of zest for mic pres in general. If they are of a certain lineage and are well built, it’s kind of semantics at that point. Now - I still think there’s a weighty-ness that outboard SS pres have that ICs don’t...so, they obviously still matter, but the argument over brands are just one color over the other. And if you’re not pushing the input, it would be hard to tell one from the other.
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Post by chessparov on Mar 29, 2020 12:18:18 GMT -6
I have to admit, IF I were running and owned a profitable commercial studio... I'd buy into the LTL line. I love how tonally flexible, the Silver Bullet sounds. Plus I had my first taste of the API 312, on the other end of the spectrum-so to speak! Chris
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 29, 2020 18:44:43 GMT -6
I remember seeing a YouTube video comparing the Sowter-Stam with the Carnhill-Stam when they came out. The Carnhill version sounded fine, but the Sowter version really stood out to me. Quite a bit bigger on the bottom with more impact. I haven't needed to mic a kick drum in awhile, but if I were micing one up tomorrow, I'd be glad I have the Sowter version.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:54:49 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 29, 2020 19:26:19 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
"Specs" never tell you the whole story. In fact, sometimes "specs" don't tell you squat.
You have to be able to understand what the specs don't tell you, and sometimes need to be able to "read between the lines".
That being said, if a company doesn't publish specs I get really suspicious, fast.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 29, 2020 19:33:26 GMT -6
On the other hand... After I bought my pair of Dizengoff D4's (Redd 47-based pres), I also thought those sounded better than ( yes, more expensive than) the Stam. Even though Stam was more or less the same for 2 channels. So, for me, it was a "quality" of tone I was chasing. Simply put, I thought the Sowters in the Stam made it sound grainy and dull. Some people like that, and apparently, if that's truly the "Old Neve" sound, I wouldn't much care for it. I would take that vintage 1970's Neve 1073 and compare it to my AD2022, and say... "The Avalon sounds much more expensive to my ear." Ok... now throw stones at me if you like (of course, you can't because we're all sequestered in our homes – haha). DIZENGOff d4 sounded nice but its a tube based pre. ive seen lack of support with their broken products, i was like NO thanks. Reliability is very crucial if something breaks down. im a bit worried about Stam too in longer term the way their business structure is setup but so far they seem to deliver. i prefer the sowters version over others. i believe there is something special in low end that trumps all the other 73 clones with carnhills. now this is all subjective but i trust my ears. Avalons, never been impressed by them, always thought they were overpriced mediocre pres. I've never really liked Avalon products - they impress me as a company that put most of the money on the outside of the box.
OOOH! OVAL METERS!
THe few that I've been inside did not impress me with the quality of their circuitry.
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 30, 2020 1:52:53 GMT -6
DIZENGOff d4 sounded nice but its a tube based pre. ive seen lack of support with their broken products, i was like NO thanks. Reliability is very crucial if something breaks down. im a bit worried about Stam too in longer term the way their business structure is setup but so far they seem to deliver. i prefer the sowters version over others. i believe there is something special in low end that trumps all the other 73 clones with carnhills. now this is all subjective but i trust my ears. Avalons, never been impressed by them, always thought they were overpriced mediocre pres. I've never really liked Avalon products - they impress me as a company that put most of the money on the outside of the box.
OOOH! OVAL METERS!
THe few that I've been inside did not impress me with the quality of their circuitry.
I've always found the 737 and the U5 DI pretty boring and they seem to be in every studio, they used to at least. But I've always liked their 2022 preamp and I LOVE THE 2055 equalizer. Wonder if you've every used on of those? I'd take it over a GML for my music.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 30, 2020 15:03:18 GMT -6
I've never really liked Avalon products - they impress me as a company that put most of the money on the outside of the box.
OOOH! OVAL METERS!
THe few that I've been inside did not impress me with the quality of their circuitry.
I've always found the 737 and the U5 DI pretty boring and they seem to be in every studio, they used to at least. But I've always liked their 2022 preamp and I LOVE THE 2055 equalizer. Wonder if you've every used on of those? I'd take it over a GML for my music. The U5 is so ubiquitous because it was the first device of its type to be mass marketed and because it's really pretty (if you like that sort of thing.) Because it was such an early design it has been vastly eclipsed by several othe preamp-DIs that have better sound quality and a better feature set. Howver the best of them aren't nearly as pretty. I'd take a Tonecraft tube preamp/DI or one of the A-Designs KGB series over a U5 any day. (Disclaimer: I did some of the beta testing for the KGB-2.)
I have not used the 2022 or 2055, but if their build quality is like their other stuff I'd probably pass. Like I said before, they put all the "pretty" on the outside of the box, their component quality tends to be a bit mediocre, especially for what they charge.
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 31, 2020 1:50:44 GMT -6
I've always found the 737 and the U5 DI pretty boring and they seem to be in every studio, they used to at least. But I've always liked their 2022 preamp and I LOVE THE 2055 equalizer. Wonder if you've every used on of those? I'd take it over a GML for my music. The U5 is so ubiquitous because it was the first device of its type to be mass marketed and because it's really pretty (if you like that sort of thing.) Because it was such an early design it has been vastly eclipsed by several othe preamp-DIs that have better sound quality and a better feature set. Howver the best of them aren't nearly as pretty. I'd take a Tonecraft tube preamp/DI or one of the A-Designs KGB series over a U5 any day. (Disclaimer: I did some of the beta testing for the KGB-2.)
I have not used the 2022 or 2055, but if their build quality is like their other stuff I'd probably pass. Like I said before, they put all the "pretty" on the outside of the box, their component quality tends to be a bit mediocre, especially for what they charge.
I agree. The first time I heard a Reddi I thought to myself "I'm never using a U5 ever again" ! To be honest, I don't know what's inside the 2055, all I can say is I think it hangs sonically with the Massive Passive, Gml 8200. It's just a really nice sounding eq, and because it's never been hyped much you can get it really cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 11:50:04 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. is that what you use for most of your vocal duties?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 31, 2020 12:35:52 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. is that what you use for most of your vocal duties? Yes
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Post by chessparov on Mar 31, 2020 14:10:36 GMT -6
Your last Upton 251 vocal you posted, sounded incredible! (the great kind! ) Chris
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Mar 31, 2020 15:23:58 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. I agree with you 100% on the Sowters. Never heard one I didn't like.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 31, 2020 17:08:15 GMT -6
It's so interesting how transformers make such a big difference, even though it can be subtle. I remember a friend's Cascade Vin-Jet ribbon mic, when a Lundahl transformer was put in, it was then in a completely different class.
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