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Post by plinker on Mar 27, 2020 17:59:20 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 27, 2020 18:03:55 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. I sold my Stam with Sowters after I bought my Heritage Audio DMA’73. I thought the DMA’73 was more expensive sounding. I owned the Great River because of Ragan’s praise for that pre. I thought it was somewhere between my AD2022 and Heritage, but not different enough to keep. Just goes to show how each of us has a unique sound in our heads we are chasing. I find the carnhill a brighter and the Sowters darker.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 27, 2020 18:05:55 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
You’re not busting my bubble. I’m relying on my ears. People have different ways of hearing.
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 27, 2020 18:40:06 GMT -6
I’ve been wondering how the high end Heritage stuff compares to BAE and such,
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Post by notneeson on Mar 27, 2020 19:47:09 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
Science is never disrespectful. I appreciate the post!
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Post by plinker on Mar 27, 2020 21:48:40 GMT -6
I’ve been wondering how the high end Heritage stuff compares to BAE and such, Apparently it “sounds a lot more expensive”...😜
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Post by reddirt on Mar 27, 2020 22:17:16 GMT -6
FWIW, I have both the BAE (minus eq) and the Great River with it's eq which adds another transformer to the path. Sorry, no Heritage or Stam to compare but the G R combo is one of those pieces I don't question and thus will probably never sell. Its in no way demeaning to say its a great all rounder; a little more open i.e less thick in its sound than the BAE which I also have a lot of time for. Very cool to have that trust in eqpt; I cant say that about everything I've got.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2020 22:35:37 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. I sold my Stam with Sowters after I bought my Heritage Audio DMA’73. I thought the DMA’73 was more expensive sounding. I owned the Great River because of Ragan’s praise for that pre. I thought it was somewhere between my AD2022 and Heritage, but not different enough to keep. Just goes to show how each of us has a unique sound in our heads we are chasing. You're not kidding there!!! I have the original Great River, the white one. Its really nice and fast, a totally different animal than the NV. They were hot as shit at first, but no one talks about them now.
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 28, 2020 3:27:53 GMT -6
I’ve been wondering how the high end Heritage stuff compares to BAE and such, Their vertical pre/eqs sound very nice. I've used both the BAE and the Heritage a bit as one studio I track a lot in has a rack of Baes, and another one has Heritages. I've never heard them head to head but I have heard the BAE next to the AMS, and the Heritage next to the AMS. As I mentioned before, my favorite is the AMS, the sound might not be identical to the vintage units but I'm not that interested in 100% authenticity. The AMS is probably cleaner than the vintage units, but that's fine with me, it sounds great, open but still has the Neve wieght in the low end. The BAEs have that BAE low mid thing going which people either love or hate it seems though it's actually pretty clean in lower gain settings. The Heritage are a little brighter and the low end is not as exaggerated. If I had to pick one out of those 2, it would probably be the Heritage, I feel it sounds closer off the bat to the way I would end up eqing. Though to be honest none of them would be my first choice for vocals, particularly for powerful vocals like yours.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 10:01:27 GMT -6
I really think it’s about the output transformers. This won’t be a popular opinion - but my favorite Neve clone is the Stam with the Sowter transformer. In fact, when I think of all the pres I have been fond of in the past, they’ve used Sowter input or output. Still haven’t tried the Great River (maybe years ago), but I bet I’d really like it. My ears too. sowters has something extra in the low end spectrum I like
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 28, 2020 12:11:42 GMT -6
I’ve been wondering how the high end Heritage stuff compares to BAE and such, Apparently it “sounds a lot more expensive”...😜 Just what we need, sarcasm without contributing much to the discussion other than diminishing others opinions. It may not be the best description, but yes, expensive often goes hand-in-hand with quality.
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 28, 2020 13:15:01 GMT -6
I won't be able to try my Heritage TT-73 until the lockdown ends, that could take a while. I spoke with Heritage's owner about the difference between the Elite series and the regular one. He said there's a very subtle difference between the transformers. In my case, I'm replacing a Carnhill-equipped Golden Age Pre73 mkIII (plus EQ module) with the Heritage mostly for the looks. There, I've said it: to impress clients I think the Golden Age sounded wonderful. Also, I didn't use the EQ a whole lot so I thought it could be a worthwhile upgrade.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 28, 2020 13:26:56 GMT -6
I won't be able to try my Heritage TT-73 until the lockdown ends, that could take a while. I spoke with Heritage's owner about the difference between the Elite series and the regular one. He said there's a very subtle difference between the transformers. In my case, I'm replacing a Carnhill-equipped Golden Age Pre73 mkIII (plus EQ module) with the Heritage mostly for the looks. There, I've said it: to impress clients I think the Golden Age sounded wonderful. Also, I didn't use the EQ a whole lot so I thought it could be a worthwhile upgrade. Client perception is important. They should see things they don't see at Guitarget or their buddy's home studio. I opened in 2002. Due to a moving 'mishap' I had a buy a new console before I opened. I looked at an Amek BIG, and passed. Part of the reason was its physical size. It looked like a Mackie 8-bus. I wanted potential clients to see something that took up space and gave a certain impression.
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Post by ragan on Mar 28, 2020 13:30:05 GMT -6
Apparently it “sounds a lot more expensive”...😜 Just what we need, sarcasm without contributing much to the discussion other than diminishing others opinions. It may not be the best description, but yes, expensive often goes hand-in-hand with quality. I think you may have missed his previous post about his research in cognitive bias. The post you quoted was just a little after-joke.
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Post by ragan on Mar 28, 2020 13:34:26 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
I completely agree that bias plays a huge role in almost all things audio but it is possible to conduct proper blind tests where you are just evaluating sonics. If I really want to know the scoop on say two preamps I have to track a mix worth of stuff through them, RMS match and group the mix by preamp type and then blind AB back and forth between the grouped tracks simultaneously. I need to hear the sonic footprint of each amp in a spatial relationship with all of the elements switching back and forth from one preamp to the other (and not know which is which of course). It's a pain in the ass and takes quite a bit of work but it does tell you what's going on. Sometimes the differences are comically negligible, sometimes they're not.
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Post by plinker on Mar 28, 2020 14:11:48 GMT -6
Just what we need, sarcasm without contributing much to the discussion other than diminishing others opinions. It may not be the best description, but yes, expensive often goes hand-in-hand with quality. I think you may have missed his previous post about his research in cognitive bias. The post you quoted was just a little after-joke. Thanks, Ragan.
Yes; that's all it was -- just having fun with the notion that a unit that cost 2 or 3 times as much as the Stam would "sound more expensive"...cognitive bias stuff.
Tough crowd...
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Post by plinker on Mar 28, 2020 14:15:31 GMT -6
I don't mean disrespect to anyone but I conduct research in cognitive bias and have applied my "main job" to my hobby in audio engineering. I also firmly agree that that each person really does believe what he/she believes. However, when I look at the specs on the Stam and the Heritage (and all the others), where each claims to be "true to the original", and examine the topology and implementation and my own personal A/B comparison tests, I find that cognitive bias plays such an overwhelming affect on human preference that it's really hard to take most of this stuff seriously.
Cork sniffing is what it is...
Sorry to burst any bubbles and I realize this is probably not the place to say so, but fuck it. Enjoy the smell of cork during this recession! We gotta enjoy something after all.
I completely agree that bias plays a huge role in almost all things audio but it is possible to conduct proper blind tests where you are just evaluating sonics. If I really want to know the scoop on say two preamps I have to track a mix worth of stuff through them, RMS match and group the mix by preamp type and then blind AB back and forth between the grouped tracks simultaneously. I need to hear the sonic footprint of each amp in a spatial relationship with all of the elements switching back and forth from one preamp to the other (and not know which is which of course). It's a pain in the ass and takes quite a bit of work but it does tell you what's going on. Sometimes the differences are comically negligible, sometimes they're not.
Yes!!! I do the same thing and it's bizarre how the differences can be either forward or "comically negligible" (good description!)
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 28, 2020 14:26:35 GMT -6
I completely agree that bias plays a huge role in almost all things audio but it is possible to conduct proper blind tests where you are just evaluating sonics. If I really want to know the scoop on say two preamps I have to track a mix worth of stuff through them, RMS match and group the mix by preamp type and then blind AB back and forth between the grouped tracks simultaneously. I need to hear the sonic footprint of each amp in a spatial relationship with all of the elements switching back and forth from one preamp to the other (and not know which is which of course). It's a pain in the ass and takes quite a bit of work but it does tell you what's going on. Sometimes the differences are comically negligible, sometimes they're not.
Yes!!! I do the same thing and it's bizarre how the differences can be either forward or "comically negligible" (good description!)
I agree that's the best way to do things. I just did that recently with a ton of preamps. Unfortunately ended up with one of the most expensive ones as my main pre! It wasn't the pre I was expecting to like the most, but it was by far the one that sounded the best in my room, with my mics for my music.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 28, 2020 19:30:02 GMT -6
I completely agree that bias plays a huge role in almost all things audio but it is possible to conduct proper blind tests where you are just evaluating sonics. If I really want to know the scoop on say two preamps I have to track a mix worth of stuff through them, RMS match and group the mix by preamp type and then blind AB back and forth between the grouped tracks simultaneously. I need to hear the sonic footprint of each amp in a spatial relationship with all of the elements switching back and forth from one preamp to the other (and not know which is which of course). It's a pain in the ass and takes quite a bit of work but it does tell you what's going on. Sometimes the differences are comically negligible, sometimes they're not.
Yes!!! I do the same thing and it's bizarre how the differences can be either forward or "comically negligible" (good description!)
There is also so much to be said for coming from a place of confidence. I don't feel the need to shoot out my Quad Eights with anything else as I am already so intimately familiar with their sounds. I am the opposite of a gear flipper for that reason, have been using the above for 14 years and they're like trusted collaborators. Doesn't mean every session shouldn't be a death match with mediocrity, but it's nice to remove some factors where you can.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 28, 2020 19:37:56 GMT -6
Yes!!! I do the same thing and it's bizarre how the differences can be either forward or "comically negligible" (good description!)
There is also so much to be said for coming from a place of confidence. I don't feel the need to shoot out my Quad Eights with anything else as I am already so intimately familiar with their sounds. I am the opposite of a gear flipper for that reason, have been using the above for 14 years and they're like trusted collaborators. Doesn't mean every session shouldn't be a death match with mediocrity, but it's nice to remove some factors where you can. I think that’s kind’ve where I am right now. Only reason I sell anything is just boredom so I can try something else.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 28, 2020 19:42:35 GMT -6
I’m a huge fan of Great River! I haven’t tried any Aurora products, but from some trusted people I know, they have a very good reputation.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 28, 2020 19:50:24 GMT -6
There is also so much to be said for coming from a place of confidence. I don't feel the need to shoot out my Quad Eights with anything else as I am already so intimately familiar with their sounds. I am the opposite of a gear flipper for that reason, have been using the above for 14 years and they're like trusted collaborators. Doesn't mean every session shouldn't be a death match with mediocrity, but it's nice to remove some factors where you can. I think that’s kind’ve where I am right now. Only reason I sell anything is just boredom so I can try something else. Yeah, I get it. I'm more tempted to mix it up with my mics. That 421 I own could be a Beyer 201 in a hot minute. New stuff can be really inspiring for writing new material too. (But you're like a thousand times more accomplished than I am in that dept.)
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Post by ragan on Mar 28, 2020 20:34:04 GMT -6
Yes!!! I do the same thing and it's bizarre how the differences can be either forward or "comically negligible" (good description!)
There is also so much to be said for coming from a place of confidence. I don't feel the need to shoot out my Quad Eights with anything else as I am already so intimately familiar with their sounds. I am the opposite of a gear flipper for that reason, have been using the above for 14 years and they're like trusted collaborators. Doesn't mean every session shouldn't be a death match with mediocrity, but it's nice to remove some factors where you can. Huge thumbs up to this. Experimenting is fun and informative but finding something you know you like and just using the hell out of it without constantly second guessing it is the reason you do all that experimenting. To arrive at a place where you feel confident in your choices and just get to work.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 21:15:59 GMT -6
I sold my Stam with Sowters after I bought my Heritage Audio DMA’73. I thought the DMA’73 was more expensive sounding. I owned the Great River because of Ragan’s praise for that pre. I thought it was somewhere between my AD2022 and Heritage, but not different enough to keep. Just goes to show how each of us has a unique sound in our heads we are chasing. I find the carnhill a brighter and the Sowters darker. Man I really like that dark sowter tone. Some people like other brands, to each his own.To me, the Marinair replication is something special, sounds tighter in lows. At this point I stop caring how close it is to vintage but it's very nice in its own right. Another one they nailed is la2a, wish I brought it.. The only thing that worries me about stams is longterm reliability and commitment when it comes to customer service. Hopefully it's engineered well enough to last few decades
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 29, 2020 0:48:14 GMT -6
I’ve been wondering how the high end Heritage stuff compares to BAE and such, Their vertical pre/eqs sound very nice. I've used both the BAE and the Heritage a bit as one studio I track a lot in has a rack of Baes, and another one has Heritages. I've never heard them head to head but I have heard the BAE next to the AMS, and the Heritage next to the AMS. As I mentioned before, my favorite is the AMS, the sound might not be identical to the vintage units but I'm not that interested in 100% authenticity. The AMS is probably cleaner than the vintage units, but that's fine with me, it sounds great, open but still has the Neve wieght in the low end. The BAEs have that BAE low mid thing going which people either love or hate it seems though it's actually pretty clean in lower gain settings. The Heritage are a little brighter and the low end is not as exaggerated. If I had to pick one out of those 2, it would probably be the Heritage, I feel it sounds closer off the bat to the way I would end up eqing. Though to be honest none of them would be my first choice for vocals, particularly for powerful vocals like yours. Funny enough I have had some nice preamps in here from the SSL Alpha Channel on the clean side to some nice tube preamps like my Tab Funkenwerk V78M and my Demeter VTMP-2B. Once I got my Dan Alexander with original transformers I stopped reaching for the other preamps with only a few exceptions. I love the VTMP and the V78M on cheaper mics, because they just make the cheaper mics sound better. The Dan Alexander has more clarity than the tube pres, which is good for my high end mics. The V78M is great on my voice with my FleA 49 or MKU67 in a jazz setting when I want it to sound vintage. It's also awesome with my Altec 639 ribbon. The VTMP works best on my wife's voice. Frankly the VTMP is my go to for my U87ai on any voice. Still no matter what comes in here I just turn on the Dan Alexander unless I know for sure I'm going for something very specific.
I also realized somewhere a long the lines that some of my favorite reference albums were either tracked at Capitol or the Power Station on Neve consoles. So I may have a bit of a bias, because that's the sound I've been chasing for a long time. Hoping to add a few more channels.
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