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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 23, 2020 19:08:55 GMT -6
As much as I prattle on about (and impulse buy) other gear, the next major upgrade I want to make are monitors. They will be used for mixing and not tracking since I really do 95% of my recording by myself and track with headphones. Plus, I only have one room dedicated for music making.
I keep getting conflicting info/opinions on whether a sub is needed for mixing. I don’t typically write/record what would be considered “bass heavy” music.
A lot of you guys do this for a living..... I don’t but, that doesn’t mean that I don’t want to do the best I can and am willing to spend a reasonable sum when it’s time (5k maybe more if it’s really worth it).
I know that monitors are the weak link in my equipment. I trust you guys to just stick to what has worked for you without a lot “noise”.
Thanks in advance.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 23, 2020 19:36:22 GMT -6
Maybe, I know I need to hear at least down to 35Hz, many can get by without going that low, but I can always tell when they didn’t on speakers that go that low or lower. Do remember if you can’t hear it your putting your LF completely in the hands of your mastering engineer.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 23, 2020 19:47:04 GMT -6
Maybe, I know I need to hear at least down to 35Hz, many can get by without going that low, but I can always tell when they didn’t on speakers that go that low or lower. Do remember if you can’t hear it your putting your LF completely in the hands of your mastering engineer. Thanks ericn. To be fair, I am not so sure what the likelihood of any of my stuff ever going to a mastering engineer would be. 😂
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 23, 2020 20:12:15 GMT -6
I like to hear my mixes really thump and satisfy me. (That sounds bad) By that , I mean - I want to hear something that makes me excited at the end of the mix. Adding a sub with it supporting the near fields does that for me.
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Post by seawell on Mar 23, 2020 20:19:13 GMT -6
I like mixing with a sub. Not loud at all but when you turn it on, it just sounds like an extension of the nearfields. I think it makes a lot more sense in this day and age when most newer cars have subs/way more bass than what a lot of us came up on.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 23, 2020 20:52:05 GMT -6
I feel like every system with a sub, aside from professional studios, have something screwed up about them. Either the room isn’t right and you get massive nodes, or you get huge blooms of a certain frequency. Or it’s a ported speaker with a sub and then I’m just completely turned off by both. It’s so distracting I just turn subs off when I’m in a room with them.
My monitors go pretty low, and when I’m working on something with low end info that goes below that, I use good cans to check.
If your room isn’t set up to deal with sub information, it’s going to confuse you and leave you guessing. That’s a worse position imo than mixing on speakers you know well and then checking on headphones, in the car, etc etc etc.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 23, 2020 21:30:08 GMT -6
As much as I prattle on about (and impulse buy) other gear, the next major upgrade I want to make are monitors. They will be used for mixing and not tracking since I really do 95% of my recording by myself and track with headphones. Plus, I only have one room dedicated for music making. I keep getting conflicting info/opinions on whether a sub is needed for mixing. I don’t typically write/record what would be considered “bass heavy” music. A lot of you guys do this for a living..... I don’t but, that doesn’t mean that I don’t want to do the best I can and am willing to spend a reasonable sum when it’s time (5k maybe more if it’s really worth it). I know that monitors are the weak link in my equipment. I trust you guys to just stick to what has worked for you without a lot “noise”. Thanks in advance. The short answer is NO. Why?: 1. I never heard any room where sub lows where not making trouble. If I need to know what's going on down there I use AKG cans - K701. 2. Lows can make a big impression on the more unexpirienced ears. I even was falling for this effect after a decade, untill I banned my Genelec 8040s. 3. For me mixing is easier/faster using 3/4 of the time crappy monitors... Auratones or NS10s. They also save me from room treatment- trouble lower than 50HZ which never works right, or looks way too big in a small room, or ends in making the room dead. Plus the advantage that both systems translate impulses very well...
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Post by RealNoob on Mar 23, 2020 22:45:26 GMT -6
Sub? Yes! - but I do things a bit different.
I have my tops connected to a switch witch. My sub is in a separate switch on the switch witch with no dependencies either way. The tops run full range. The sub has a filter at about 60hz.
This eliminates the bass guitar mud that every crosovered system I have listened to delivered. The sub only hits the very bottom, focusing most on kick. It’s the cleanest way to run a sub that I have found.
With this, I use SW4 but I cheat a little on the bottom because I like punch.
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Post by swafford on Mar 24, 2020 3:14:52 GMT -6
I don't need one, but for me it definitely helps keep the bass in perspective and the mids easier to hear. Dynaudio BM6a pair and a BM9s. But I'm in a barn, so my hearing is obviously fvcked up.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 24, 2020 7:54:34 GMT -6
I feel like every system with a sub, aside from professional studios, have something screwed up about them. Either the room isn’t right and you get massive nodes, or you get huge blooms of a certain frequency. Or it’s a ported speaker with a sub and then I’m just completely turned off by both. It’s so distracting I just turn subs off when I’m in a room with them. My monitors go pretty low, and when I’m working on something with low end info that goes below that, I use good cans to check. If your room isn’t set up to deal with sub information, it’s going to confuse you and leave you guessing. That’s a worse position imo than mixing on speakers you know well and then checking on headphones, in the car, etc etc etc. The problem is adding a sub isn’t plug and play, getting the crossover point and position right is a lot of work. Tuning the average small room for real LF is an even bigger pain! Most don’t understand that a huge part of the cost of a real control room build out is getting the LF right. While stereo subs are more expensive, they are 10 times easier to set up! Besides the obvious acoustical summing problems between the subs and near fields around the crossover frequency, you have the issue of how a mon sub is summing the frequency above the crossover internally and then the phase issues this brings summing to the near fields. If you have the room the obvious solution is a large mid field system. The cheap cheat in the LF world ? DSP! I have never been a fan of DSP as a solution, but lately I keep finding that using a used XTA 224 on the LF and using an analog filter for the high pass can solve a whole lot of problems and bring smiles to faces. Now remember there are to ways to use a sub, 1 Extended LF, this is where your trying to make a seamless system your using high and low pass filters. Lots of work. If you use multiple speakers really hard to get right because each set of satellites may need different phase and crossover settings and nobody makes a monitor controller or crossover that’s designed for this situation. 2 Boom Box. This is easy just adding a sub to give that Boom. No high pass on the satellites. This can be fun but you will have all kinds of phase issues in the region both the satellites and the sub are operating. Not against it as long as you can switch it off. The ideal ? Being able to switch between the 2.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 24, 2020 9:12:04 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. The main thing for me is that I have Presonus Eris 5 monitors that I know aren’t getting the job done. I want to only upgrade monitors once so I am really wanting to buy nice and be done. Obviously since I am not even quite “semi pro”, buying nice for me won’t be the same as those of you who do this to feed your families. My ultimate goal here, besides doing my own stuff that I am involved in, is being able to perhaps help some other local musicians out with decent mixes and recording some singer songwriter types. I am willing to spend decent but not stupid money.
Once again, I really appreciate all RGO does to be helpful to me.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 24, 2020 9:44:12 GMT -6
I will admit that before Sonarworks, it was a mess. I know some don’t think that’s a solution, but I’m getting killer results.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 9:58:00 GMT -6
I hate working with all the subwoofers I've tried even in good rooms. I can hear the crossover if it's in the upper bass. I'm one of those guys who hated mixing on pretty much every speaker with a three-way crossover except for the ATC SCM50. Using them always just confused me compared to just learning the rolloff of the speaker but I've never tried the recommend subs with something like an ATC SCM20. I still want to try that and get my own pair to play with positioning, slight boundary loading, and desk reflections to make them sound perfect from 80hz up with the sub for the instant phat system check.
I am fine without butt vibrations. The best use of I've had for a sub is to have them on a switch and use it for a brief check to see if the mix will survive a modern car or booming hifi system.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 24, 2020 10:03:56 GMT -6
I will admit that before Sonarworks, it was a mess. I know some don’t think that’s a solution, but I’m getting killer results. Having been in your room and started in a similar space I’m not surprised! That said some day, if we all survive Corona, I’m going to have to bring something special and maybe a pair of subs down there to see what we can do! This latest little project with the Volt 6.5 is really fun just wish I could find a reasonable priced tweet that meshed with it!
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 24, 2020 10:10:15 GMT -6
This is what I test my low end on. Lol...It’s the jam box. I was moving gear to a different room and just happened to take this pic. Lol...not sure why the pic rotated? Attachments:
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 24, 2020 10:11:01 GMT -6
Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. The main thing for me is that I have Presonus Eris 5 monitors that I know aren’t getting the job done. I want to only upgrade monitors once so I am really wanting to buy nice and be done. Obviously since I am not even quite “semi pro”, buying nice for me won’t be the same as those of you who do this to feed your families. My ultimate goal here, besides doing my own stuff that I am involved in, is being able to perhaps help some other local musicians out with decent mixes and recording some singer songwriter types. I am willing to spend decent but not stupid money. Once again, I really appreciate all RGO does to be helpful to me. Ah grasshopper patience and used are the answer, be patient, not a patient, listen to as much as you can. A great speaker is a crappy speaker unless it works for you. A Crappy , speaker is a great speaker if it works for you ( he coughs “NS10”). Do not be afraid to look in the audiophile world, a studio monitor is simply a speaker in a studio. Used saves you $ and if it isn’t a fit you don’t lose $.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 24, 2020 10:21:10 GMT -6
I hate working with all the subwoofers I've tried even in good rooms. I can hear the crossover if it's in the upper bass. I'm one of those guys who hated mixing on pretty much every speaker with a three-way crossover except for the ATC SCM50. Using them always just confused me compared to just learning the rolloff of the speaker but I've never tried the recommend subs with something like an ATC SCM20. I still want to try that and get my own pair to play with positioning, slight boundary loading, and desk reflections to make them sound perfect from 80hz up with the sub for the instant phat system check.
I am fine without butt vibrations. The best use of I've had for a sub is to have them on a switch and use it for a brief check to see if the mix will survive a modern car or booming hifi system.
Time and experimentation my friend. We have talked about this before ATC’s are something very special, no magic involved, just great uhber low distortion drivers. The problem with that is most subs that will mate well are big and have very expensive drivers.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 24, 2020 10:48:34 GMT -6
I will admit that before Sonarworks, it was a mess. I know some don’t think that’s a solution, but I’m getting killer results. You’ve also got a badass set of ears my man! And have been doing critical listening a long time. That all adds up.
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Post by mike on Mar 24, 2020 11:43:34 GMT -6
I feel like every system with a sub, aside from professional studios, have something screwed up about them. Either the room isn’t right and you get massive nodes, or you get huge blooms of a certain frequency. Or it’s a ported speaker with a sub and then I’m just completely turned off by both. It’s so distracting I just turn subs off when I’m in a room with them. My monitors go pretty low, and when I’m working on something with low end info that goes below that, I use good cans to check. If your room isn’t set up to deal with sub information, it’s going to confuse you and leave you guessing. That’s a worse position imo than mixing on speakers you know well and then checking on headphones, in the car, etc etc etc. Though I would expect not everyone agrees, Sonarworks also gets a thumbs up from me.
My two cents FWIW agrees with Jeremy's post above and since your description is you record yourself, is not bass heavy music or mix for a living,.. if it were me, I'd spend half or less of your 5k plus budget on a decent pair of monitors (If you think you need them) that would likely go down to 30-40Hz and check my mixes also with a good pair of headphones that likely cover down to 10-12Hz and put the other half of your 5k plus budget into other gear that may make a greater impact on your finished product than putting it all into monitors. FWIW.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 24, 2020 11:51:05 GMT -6
The subs I want badly!!!!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Mar 24, 2020 12:18:34 GMT -6
I don't need one, but for me it definitely helps keep the bass in perspective and the mids easier to hear. Dynaudio BM6a pair and a BM9s. But I'm in a barn, so my hearing is obviously fvcked up. Ha. But it's a cool barn. I've been in it.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 24, 2020 12:36:24 GMT -6
I feel like every system with a sub, aside from professional studios, have something screwed up about them. Either the room isn’t right and you get massive nodes, or you get huge blooms of a certain frequency. Or it’s a ported speaker with a sub and then I’m just completely turned off by both. It’s so distracting I just turn subs off when I’m in a room with them. My monitors go pretty low, and when I’m working on something with low end info that goes below that, I use good cans to check. If your room isn’t set up to deal with sub information, it’s going to confuse you and leave you guessing. That’s a worse position imo than mixing on speakers you know well and then checking on headphones, in the car, etc etc etc. Though I would expect not everyone agrees, Sonarworks also gets a thumbs up from me.
My two cents FWIW agrees with Jeremy's post above and since your description is you record yourself, is not bass heavy music or mix for a living,.. if it were me, I'd spend half or less of your 5k plus budget on a decent pair of monitors (If you think you need them) that would likely go down to 30-40Hz and check my mixes also with a good pair of headphones that likely cover down to 10-12Hz and put the other half of your 5k plus budget into other gear that may make a greater impact on your finished product than putting it all into monitors. FWIW.
I do use a pair of Sennheiser HD 600s a lot more than I do the monitors.
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 24, 2020 12:49:15 GMT -6
The subs I want badly!!!! The LYD 48s are monitors I have been exploring as possibilities
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Post by christopher on Mar 24, 2020 13:20:03 GMT -6
One thing I notice is that if the lows are sort of vague and imperceptible, I probably won’t mix much in the sub region, just sort of let everything pile up however, make sure kick is on top and figure mastering stage we will roll it off. Ports and woofy subs are tough to gauge for me, I can’t tell what frequency I’m at or what the EQ moves are really doing. If I am able to hear the sub region, like powerful system in a big room, I can get creative and choose points to roll off, and won’t hate myself later. Headphones can be good but I’m almost always +/-4dB wrong but I’m getting better I think. That can add up to 8dB wrong if I really screw up, and often I do.. which makes me feel totally miserable. So I guess my opinion for lows, try to get tight and clearly discernible sounding sub area. Some subs are better than others at being legible. Home stereo subs can be pretty good sometimes
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Post by swafford on Mar 24, 2020 13:35:46 GMT -6
I don't need one, but for me it definitely helps keep the bass in perspective and the mids easier to hear. Dynaudio BM6a pair and a BM9s. But I'm in a barn, so my hearing is obviously fvcked up. Ha. But it's a cool barn. I've been in it. Me and the mice like it.
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