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Post by plinker on Mar 22, 2020 14:41:28 GMT -6
Hi folks, I’m posting this here to: 1. Share knowledge with others in the community who do remote work with audio interfaces that use DB25 connectors for the inputs/outputs 2. Help bring more MH users to the RGO board. MH users tend to do remote work in orchestral and choral settings so this could add some new flavor to the boards. I’ve been experimenting with a new setup for my ULN8. The challenges I’m trying to address: 1. Dsub breakout cables are heavy - creates strain on the DB25 connector - more bulk to carry when going remote 2. Running long audio snakes is expensive and can induce RFI & crosstalk While Radial, Redco, and Ward-Beck all have their solutions for #2 (above) it seems silly to run an XLR breakout cable from my ULN8 to an XLR->DB25 adapter then run CAT6 to another XLR breakout box. I thought that, surely, there must be a way to skip the XLR breakout from the ULN8 an run CAT6 straight from the DB25 connector. It turns out that Ward-Beck has a DB25->Cat5/6 adapter that can be used for running +48 to mics over CAT5/6. Here’s my setup: 1. Ward-Beck QTP-DB25S: ward-beck.com/products/qtp-db25s2. 2 x 15' Stranded CAT6 (SSTP/SFTP) cable: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073R1DBDB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=13. 2 x Redco EA-4F: www.redco.com/Redco-EA-4F-RJ45-4-Female-XLR-Send-Box.htmlThe Ward-Beck unit attaches to the DB25 connector. It has 2 x RJ45 connectors for channels 1-4 and 5-8, respectively. Then run a CAT 6 cable from each RJ45 connector to separate Redco boxes.
Total cost: ~$180 (+ shipping)
Now, while this might seem significantly more expensive than a basic DB25->XLR breakout harness, it addresses both challenges (above) and I can run heavily-shielded CAT6 cable for long distances at a fraction of the cost of regular audio cable. Some discussion of each item: 1. Ward-Beck QTP-DB25S: This model has a shield jumper that has to be soldered (just a solder blob). This will tie the cable shield to common ground. This allows the unit to be used to pass +48 phantom power. Ward-Beck doesn't advertise using this card for mic-level because it's a bit complex and they don't want to create problems. However, I have verified with their techs and through my own testing that it works great. The card uses TASCAM pinout, which is what the ULN8 series adopts for its DB25 pinout. 2. Stranded CAT6 (SSTP/SFTP) cable: Be careful when buying the CAT6. You want stranded cable (not solid) for flexibility/durability. It also has to been “shielded” CAT 5 or 6. CAT 7/8 won’t work because the connectors are incorrect for this application. The SSTP/SFTP designator means that each twisted pair is individually foil shielded. Then the whole wire is shielded as well. This is serious shielding from RFI and crosstalk!!! 3. Redco EA-4F: This box is cheaper than either the Ward-Beck or Radial units and who doesn’t love Redco?! I confirmed with Redco, prior to purchase, that these units will pass +48.
In the pics you'll see that I have two Ward-Beck adapters on my ULN8: one for the mic inputs and other for line-level inputs.
While I use a MH ULN8, this approach should work for any audio interface that uses DB25 connectors.
Please let me know if you have any questions. Jim Attachments:
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Post by sirthought on Mar 23, 2020 0:34:25 GMT -6
Nice solution. Can you post a pic showing where to solder?
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 23, 2020 0:40:30 GMT -6
I've been using those adapters for a few years for AES signals as well. Works great.
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Post by plinker on Mar 23, 2020 8:18:28 GMT -6
Nice solution. Can you post a pic showing where to solder? Here you go, Sir. The pads are inside the black circle in the lower right.
The screws that join the adapter to the DB25 connector are grounded. The RJ45 cable connector is metal for both the male/female points, so they mate.
As you can see, jumpering the pads creates a connection between the screws and the RJ45 connector shields. This creates common ground for all the mics/lines running straight into the audio interface (in my case, a MH ULN8).
Attachments:
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2020 12:28:34 GMT -6
plinker : I'm also a Metric Halo user (LIO-8/4p for me). I'm wondering if you have done the 3D upgrade yet. Seems like 3D would solve your issue by letting you have the interface as close to stage as necessary and running ethernet to your laptop wherever you need it to be located. But I may be missing something in your use case? I haven't done the upgrade myself yet, but am planning to do so at some point.
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Post by plinker on Mar 23, 2020 12:57:55 GMT -6
plinker : I'm also a Metric Halo user (LIO-8/4p for me). I'm wondering if you have done the 3D upgrade yet. Seems like 3D would solve your issue by letting you have the interface as close to stage as necessary and running ethernet to your laptop wherever you need it to be located. But I may be missing something in your use case? I haven't done the upgrade myself yet, but am planning to do so at some point. Yes; I've done the upgrade. The 3D/Ethernet option, which is very cool and I use it, doesn't address the first challenge listed in my post. It addresses only the second. My approach addresses both.
Using just the 3D approach you still have to haul a heavy DB25 breakout cable that requires strain relief on the DB25 connector. Want to use outboard as well? That's another heavy DB25 breakout cable attached to the unit.
I'm not saying any approach is right/wrong, just that my solution addresses both challenges that I posted.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2020 13:03:06 GMT -6
plinker : I'm also a Metric Halo user (LIO-8/4p for me). I'm wondering if you have done the 3D upgrade yet. Seems like 3D would solve your issue by letting you have the interface as close to stage as necessary and running ethernet to your laptop wherever you need it to be located. But I may be missing something in your use case? I haven't done the upgrade myself yet, but am planning to do so at some point. Yes; I've done the upgrade. The 3D/Ethernet option, which is very cool and I use it, doesn't address the first challenge listed in my post. It addresses only the second. My approach addresses both.
Using just the 3D approach you still have to haul a heavy DB25 breakout cable that requires strain relief on the DB25 connector. Want to use outboard as well? That's another heavy DB25 breakout cable attached to the unit.
I'm not saying any approach is right/wrong, just that my solution addresses both challenges that I posted.
Gotcha. Understood. I have a Network Sound Mamba patchbay for mine, so when I'm doing something that I think requires it, I bring that along to go direct to XLR. The solution you've outlined looks awesome! |
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Post by plinker on Mar 23, 2020 13:22:08 GMT -6
Thanks, Mark. Those Mamba patchbays can be pricey, all-in. However, once installed, they seem to provide turnkey operation which is nice.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 23, 2020 15:09:05 GMT -6
Thanks, Mark. Those Mamba patchbays can be pricey, all-in. However, once installed, they seem to provide turnkey operation which is nice. yeah, I hear you on the expense. I priced it into my purchase years ago when I got my LIO, and I only have a 1RU version with two sets of 8 connectors. Not sure if I would buy it again given what my use has looked like. Though it’s nice to have it wired into my studio rack as the inputs to the LIO. |
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Post by chipbuttie on May 7, 2021 7:15:10 GMT -6
I’m also a Metric Halo user. It seems Ward Beck went out of business in the last year. Does anybody know of any other company making these DB25 to RJ45 adaptors?
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Post by Blackdawg on May 7, 2021 12:37:13 GMT -6
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Post by chipbuttie on May 7, 2021 17:13:17 GMT -6
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Post by parasitk on May 19, 2021 13:24:18 GMT -6
Does anybody know of any other company making these DB25 to RJ45 adaptors? I'm also curious about this, so here's a bump… //Chris |
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Post by Blackdawg on May 20, 2021 18:40:08 GMT -6
Does anybody know of any other company making these DB25 to RJ45 adaptors? I'm also curious about this, so here's a bump… //Chris I posted one literally two posts up. Honestly wouldn't be hard to just make these. |
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Post by plinker on May 21, 2021 14:10:21 GMT -6
I'm also curious about this, so here's a bump… //Chris I posted one literally two posts up. Honestly wouldn't be hard to just make these. Funny -- I haven't been getting any updates to this thread.
Blackdawg, I initially looked into the L-Comm before finding the Ward Beck. If you go with the L-Com you have to snap the wires into correct place. Just a little more leg-work than the Ward Becks, but they should work fine.
I contacted Redco to ensure that the Ward Beck pinout was compatible with the Redco breakout boxes.
It's been a year since I developed this configuration, and I wouldn't go back to standard XLR breakout cables for anything. What a PITA!
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Post by plinker on May 21, 2021 14:12:14 GMT -6
Just FYI, I have four Ward Beck cards installed on my primary ULN8:
- Mic-in - Line-in - Insert - Outputs
I have one card left for the Mic-In on my new (used) ULN8.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 21, 2021 16:37:46 GMT -6
I posted one literally two posts up. Honestly wouldn't be hard to just make these. Funny -- I haven't been getting any updates to this thread.
Blackdawg, I initially looked into the L-Comm before finding the Ward Beck. If you go with the L-Com you have to snap the wires into correct place. Just a little more leg-work than the Ward Becks, but they should work fine.
I contacted Redco to ensure that the Ward Beck pinout was compatible with the Redco breakout boxes.
It's been a year since I developed this configuration, and I wouldn't go back to standard XLR breakout cables for anything. What a PITA!
yeah Im sure it works but for the price it doesn't save you much money. such a bummer. If i'd know they were going out of business I'd have bought a bunch more. They are super handy. |
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Post by din on May 21, 2021 16:55:52 GMT -6
Seems like an interface with AVB or Dante would be a better solution for you.
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Post by plinker on May 21, 2021 16:57:02 GMT -6
For me, it was about convenience, not $$ savings.
However, if you have to drive long mic runs, this approach will definitely save you money. CAT 6 is cheapo!
Are you not able to buy more of the current/existing stock?
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Post by plinker on May 21, 2021 16:57:56 GMT -6
Also, I mentioned to Redco that they really should consider building something similar. They already cater to the MH crowd.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 21, 2021 17:04:38 GMT -6
For me, it was about convenience, not $$ savings. However, if you have to drive long mic runs, this approach will definitely save you money. CAT 6 is cheapo! Are you not able to buy more of the current/existing stock? They are out of stock I emailed them asking. Which is too bad. I have a lot of DB25 equipment and this would make wiring much cleaner(smaller cable) and more affordable of course. Hopefully someone decides to make something similar. Though honestly I could probably do it myself, not rocket science here honestly. |
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Post by amplexusmusic on May 28, 2021 14:45:42 GMT -6
Hey everyone- was pointed to the thread by a client of mine. I am currently producing the QTP to DB-25 breakout cards in a nearly identical format to the WBS ones now out of production. I shipped 120 units to two studios last week and they're running them with no major issues, shipping another 24 units this week. I have around 60 boards left from my last run, all my current rev boards have the ground hard tied to the shield pins on the DB25 and shields of the RJ45 sockets, but my next rev will have the lift/gnd pad integrated and I've also shaved the board width down to the lowest possible profile for tight fitting stuff. My boards use standard 4-40 screws instead of captive thumbscrews at the moment, but I'm looking for a solution to that down the road. Attachments:
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Post by timcampbell on May 28, 2021 16:16:39 GMT -6
amplexusmusic I could only find your Facebook page. It seems your webpage is down. What's the price? Your name? hehehe
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Post by Blackdawg on May 28, 2021 17:01:58 GMT -6
Ditto! Whats the price? Are you building them or just selling the Pcbs?
Welcome!
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Post by amplexusmusic on Jun 1, 2021 16:14:41 GMT -6
Ditto! Whats the price? Are you building them or just selling the Pcbs? Welcome! Hey all- Sorry about the website, looks like the latest PHP Update my hosting site did killed it... Will have to get on that, but honestly the whole site is fairly out of date and make it look like i'm only an amp tech. 😆 I am building them complete. Right now my price is sitting at $18CAD per unit fully assembled so I think it's a tad cheaper than the WBS units. My units don't have the second bottom board covering the solder side, but I coat it with a high-voltage conformal coating which should be sufficient for most environments. So far the reports from my 55 and 60 unit studios are positive, and they're functioning as expected which is great news for me (my first run I made a stupid mistake on the layout and had to chuck 120 boards 😳) I'm using Amphenol connectors, double sided 1.6mm FR-4 boards. I'm not getting thread notifs right now for some reason. I'll keep checking back here, I'm not sure if posting my email would run afoul of any board rules, I don't want to violate any of the rules around commercial entities on here! -Josh |
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