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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 16:44:31 GMT -6
Just had a listen Wiz, and I hear the difference immediately. This sounds more polished, more pro. As good as all your recordings have been, this definitely is a sonic upgrade. There's a rounded/blended quality you find on more expensive productions, and this has a lot of that. Hey Martin thanks mate..... I do like the ATR and the Buss comp I think they are contributing |
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 16:45:03 GMT -6
Sounds really good I agree on the Cymbals... need less low mid more air as they are distracting a bit from the silky smooth feel of the song. Thanks for checking it out and the feedback Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 16:46:00 GMT -6
It sounded generally good....my initial thought was "except the cymbals". This is the problem with drum sample libraries....they allow things to be produced that wouldn't happen in the real world. It sounds lie ka cymbals, which IME are a few feet over that snare and closer still to those loud toms....sound like they're in a different room. I have spent a lot of time in SD3 (including resisting older libraries)....you almost always need to solo each and every mic and from your experience, mix the bleed to sound like it does. They have ALL KINDS of odd oversights--high hats being SUPER quiet in the overheads, while the kick is super loud....anyway--you need to do that--and DO NOT use their MIDI to do it--they hit 127 on the 1,2,3,4....you won't on your kit. Then you have to tailor the response of a given drum TO your eKit---you have to be kind of forensic in attention to detail like that....and THEN.....it can sound pretty realistic. The level of bleed in different mics makes a very tangible difference in the realism. IMO/E. Hey Jamie thanks for the feedback Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 16:46:35 GMT -6
Great job, sounds just right. I think the crashes are fine, so yeah the rest of the world probably wants them brighter. I always go too far on treble it’s like salt... too little it’s not enough, too much it’s not edible... I’d try EQ on the mix boosting 12k see what that does, might sizzle it up enough, if it doesn’t mess up the other stuff. Thanks for checking it out and commenting Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 16:48:03 GMT -6
Thank you all for taking the time to listen and comment...I really appreciate it.
Its wonderful to get feedback it helps with objectivity immensely.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 16:52:38 GMT -6
The track sounds very good but it is both over and underproduced if you want criticism. The underproduction leads to an overproduced, too slick sound for lots of modern digital workflows. The whole thing can become unnaturally digital, sterile, and clean.
Cut the mud and eq bass woof more. Maybe lower it in the mix and fader ride it later.
The digital kit shows as everyone pointed out. Maybe a dirtier verb? Not Bricasti and Capital Chambers. You don’t want to highlight your flaws, you want to use your flaws to your advantage and need some grit somewhere. Everyone is using a Bricasti, the irs of it, or convolution plugs of it. The Capital UAD is way overused. You’ll want something more like a Lexicon, Alesis, or a brighter room convolution verb anyway for the next steps even if you don’t use it for anything else. The Bricasti is tops for rooms but not really for what I’m suggesting you do to the kit. Some of the Dragonfly Verb and EpicVerb presets are the type of bright or grainy crap you’ll need. Yes they sound like crap as normal verbs but they’re useful here and they’re free. Crap can sound better nuked in a microwave than real food.
I would eq the dry sampled drums more. You need to make the sampled kit not sound entirety like where it came from. I get a lot of computer metal drums made from MT powerkit, kvlt drums, Logic, Slate, and ez drummer. Find everything you don’t like about the tracks in the daw (or the samples) and treat them like they’re some poorly recorded stuff you were sent to mix. Treat it like you didn’t track it and the person who tracked it was an idiot because hey they’re electronic samples and you didn’t record and tune them for the music you’re recording. Eq them as such. Gut them like a fish if you must. I do that with all MT power kit snares and most of the alesis kicks. Use the same eqs for everything even if it’s ReaEQ or Metric Halo Channel Strip. Who cares if the plugin gets nasty, aliases, or cramps, you need it to be uniform across the kit unless you need something that adds weight for some of the drums. Kicks can often need transformer type saturation. This can take some time. Then distort, saturate, and compress it to taste to get the tones you want down and pretty much just to not sound like the stock sampled kit. You might want to use a transient shaper. If you’re using Neve eqs you won’t have to distort anything but might need a different eq plug for the gutting because you might not want more Neve thickness and mud if you need to chain eqs together.
This step works on everything that’s not too fast. glue the kit together with a drum focused stereo bus compressor. Not necessarily an SSL style bus comp but ssl can work. I like something brighter, coarser, grainer. Like an 1176 stereo pair, 1178, certain 33609 revisions, Smart C2, stereo distressors, some API 2500 settings, Blockfish if you want to eq afterwards and love dirt. You want it to be able to both glue and slam. Just glue your drums here slightly. Kiss it. Not some of the insane modern dbs of gr like you might want to do later. Just get it to gel and sound real.
Send the glued drum bus to the bright or grainy reverb. Think old school Alesis or Lexicon bright or tiled rooms in plugins. The verb and the compressor timbre should gel. 100% wet. Nuke it, crush it, all buttons in it with your drum bus comp. Send the crushed 100% wet and the og bus to another bus. Mix them together until it sounds right and glue it together normally with the same compressor. This works for me for everything that’s not blasting for adding some 3d grit. Hope it helps here or with a future production if you think this leads to too dirty and trash can of a sound. You can always select different verbs to crush with different comps but I like to keep the glue and nuke comp the same for cohesion.
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 18:46:53 GMT -6
The track sounds very good but it is both over and underproduced if you want criticism. The underproduction leads to an overproduced, too slick sound for lots of modern digital workflows. The whole thing can become unnaturally digital, sterile, and clean. Cut the mud and eq bass woof more. Maybe lower it in the mix and fader ride it later. The digital kit shows as everyone pointed out. Maybe a dirtier verb? Not Bricasti and Capital Chambers. You don’t want to highlight your flaws, you want to use your flaws to your advantage and need some grit somewhere. Everyone is using a Bricasti, the irs of it, or convolution plugs of it. The Capital UAD is way overused. You’ll want something more like a Lexicon, Alesis, or a brighter room convolution verb anyway for the next steps even if you don’t use it for anything else. The Bricasti is tops for rooms but not really for what I’m suggesting you do to the kit. Some of the Dragonfly Verb and EpicVerb presets are the type of bright or grainy crap you’ll need. Yes they sound like crap as normal verbs but they’re useful here and they’re free. Crap can sound better nuked in a microwave than real food. I would eq the dry sampled drums more. You need to make the sampled kit not sound entirety like where it came from. I get a lot of computer metal drums made from MT powerkit, kvlt drums, Logic, Slate, and ez drummer. Find everything you don’t like about the tracks in the daw (or the samples) and treat them like they’re some poorly recorded stuff you were sent to mix. Treat it like you didn’t track it and the person who tracked it was an idiot because hey they’re electronic samples and you didn’t record and tune them for the music you’re recording. Eq them as such. Gut them like a fish if you must. I do that with all MT power kit snares and most of the alesis kicks. Use the same eqs for everything even if it’s ReaEQ or Metric Halo Channel Strip. Who cares if the plugin gets nasty, aliases, or cramps, you need it to be uniform. This can take some time. Then distort, saturate, and compress it to taste to get the tones you want down and pretty much just to not sound like the stock sampled kit. You might want to use a transient shaper. If you’re using Neve eqs you won’t have to distort anything but might need a different eq plug for the gutting because you might not want more Neve thickness and mud if you need to chain eqs together. This step works on everything that’s not too fast. glue the kit together with a drum focused stereo bus compressor. Not necessarily an SSL style bus comp but ssl can work. I like something brighter, coarser, grainer. Like an 1176 stereo pair, 1178, certain 33609 revisions, Smart C2, stereo distressors, some API 2500 settings, Blockfish if you want to eq afterwards and love dirt. You want it to be able to both glue and slam. Just glue your drums here slightly. Kiss it. Not some of the insane modern dbs of gr like you might want to do later. Just get it to gel and sound real. Send the glued drum bus to the bright or grainy reverb. Think old school Alesis or Lexicon bright or tiled rooms in plugins. The verb and the compressor timbre should gel. 100% wet. Nuke it, crush it, all buttons in it with your drum bus comp. Send the crushed 100% wet and the og bus to another bus. Mix them together until it sounds right and glue it together normally with the same compressor. This works for me for everything that’s not blasting for adding some 3d grit. Hope it helps here or with a future production if you think this leads to too dirty and trash can of a sound. You can always select different verbs to crush with different comps but I like to keep the glue and nuke comp the same for cohesion. Thank you very much for taking the time to post such considered feedback.. I really appreciate it Cheers Wiz |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 15, 2020 19:31:53 GMT -6
Sounds really good I agree on the Cymbals... need less low mid more air as they are distracting a bit from the silky smooth feel of the song. I find "modern" excesively bright cymbals to be annoyong and distracting from the song. Only a deaf drummer (or somebody else with excesive high frequency loss) would want more top. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 15, 2020 19:35:18 GMT -6
It sounded generally good....my initial thought was "except the cymbals". This is the problem with drum sample libraries....they allow things to be produced that wouldn't happen in the real world. It sounds lie ka cymbals, which IME are a few feet over that snare and closer still to those loud toms....sound like they're in a different room. I have spent a lot of time in SD3 (including resisting older libraries)....you almost always need to solo each and every mic and from your experience, mix the bleed to sound like it does. They have ALL KINDS of odd oversights--high hats being SUPER quiet in the overheads, while the kick is super loud....anyway--you need to do that--and DO NOT use their MIDI to do it--they hit 127 on the 1,2,3,4....you won't on your kit. Then you have to tailor the response of a given drum TO your eKit---you have to be kind of forensic in attention to detail like that....and THEN.....it can sound pretty realistic. The level of bleed in different mics makes a very tangible difference in the realism. IMO/E. Hihats being "super quiet" in the overheads is a GOOD thing. More often than not hats tend to be distractingly bright in "modern" productions.
I attribute it to HF loss from excssive listening on earbuds.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 19:50:52 GMT -6
Sounds really good I agree on the Cymbals... need less low mid more air as they are distracting a bit from the silky smooth feel of the song. I find "modern" excesively bright cymbals to be annoyong and distracting from the song. Only a deaf drummer (or somebody else with excesive high frequency loss) would want more top. Agreed. I need to color a lot of modern sounding cymbals with dithers or gear that has a darker sheen to it. They need to be dulled. I HATE the guys who intentionally digitally clip for more cymbal and snare "presence" in mix that's been slammed against look ahead limiters on every bus. Even clipping very warm ADs like Lavry and Dangerous Music with that poc but sometimes saturates cool Hammond transformer turned on sounds awful for this. The Dangerous house sound sheen is great for killing nasty air normally when you run stuff through their gear. Clipping it to make it harsher is ridiculous. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 15, 2020 20:04:20 GMT -6
Just to clarify, I have just been finishing a mix of a song with a convo of logic drummer producer kit and SS5 drums, so very digital, but I found everything in wiz’s mix to me sound spot on but the cymbals sounded not quite in the mix line everything else, not certain what atr setting he is using but it could certainly be that.
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2020 20:09:06 GMT -6
Just to clarify, I have just been finishing a mix of a song with a convo of logic drummer producer kit and SS5 drums, so very digital, but I found everything in wiz’s mix to me sound spot on but the cymbals sounded not quite in the mix line everything else, not certain what atr setting he is using but it could certainly be that. Most of it is that I played them softer.... which is the sound I was after... I think anyways... Cheers Wiz |
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 15, 2020 20:30:41 GMT -6
All good, it was more a contextual comment !  |
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Post by bricejchandler on Mar 16, 2020 2:22:36 GMT -6
I think the song sounds great Wiz.
I agree the cymbals sound a bit disconnected from the kit but besides that everything sounds really good.
I've noticed that it's a lot easier to mix with plug ins when you've got a great front end.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Mar 16, 2020 5:18:11 GMT -6
Sounds great, Wiz. The Apollo x8 is plenty good enough to make great music. Congrats on the new interface!
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Post by reddirt on Mar 16, 2020 13:24:13 GMT -6
Very clean Wiz, nice balance and honest delivery; sounds like the X series is easily up to the mark.
Thanks for baring and sharing ; a similar set up will be my next move I reckon.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2020 19:24:49 GMT -6
One question - I know you like to track really low levels, but this seemed even lower than usual. Almost had to crank to unusual levels to get it to normal listening levels...maybe something was wrong on my end.
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Post by wiz on Mar 16, 2020 19:35:15 GMT -6
One question - I know you like to track really low levels, but this seemed even lower than usual. Almost had to crank to unusual levels to get it to normal listening levels...maybe something was wrong on my end. yeah, its low... I kinda havent decided on a level as yet cheers Wiz |
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2020 7:35:06 GMT -6
All the songwriting stuff is great, as usual.
The track sounds a little dark to me, otherwise I don't hear the issues that a lot of the others have mentioned. I think most everything sits perfectly, especially the drums and bass. The only thing that sounds strange is the main vocal has a little nasal push in some spots and is overly chesty in others.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 17, 2020 10:16:19 GMT -6
I have had some people writing to me, asking my thoughts on the switch to the Apollo X8... so rather than bury this in the orig thread, I thought I would post a new one. I really like the system. I really like the sound. I think some of the new plugs sound incredible, eg Capitol Chambers is amazing. I bought the LA2A series, the Fairchild, the Neve 1073, Capitol Chambers, Oxide, and the ATR102 as well as the Ampeg B15N and the SSL G Buss Compressor. I think the older plugs (which I had when I was on UAD 1) are super overpriced and way behind sonically compared to Native offerings at lower prices... I also, grabbed a second hand OCTO satellite to give me a total of 14 Sharc Chips. Most of my songs are a very low track count... but I really like the sound of some of the DSP intensive plug ins... and lets face it one of the reasons for going this way is recall...so I don't want to have to commit to anything till I have to. I love the fact, that my CPU in my ageing iMac is untaxed now, I was looking at buying a new one. Unison plugs. I have a real 1073 and V72 and I will continue to use them... .the Unison plug ins don't do it for me compared to those...and I suppose neither they should. The DI on the apollo sounds really good. I wish it would respond to my keyboard volume controls like my MOTU used to. The headphone amps are good, not great. So far stable as a rock. I like the console and after working it out, its way easier than the MOTU routing matrix which was always confusing, this is less flexible but fine for me. I tracked and mixed the song below using the apollo. Acoustic guitar is real V72 with Rode NTR Main Vocal is U87 into 1073 preamp Both those tracked at same time. Then I built a tempo map off the guitar in Logic and played the drums in with my Roland TD17 into Superior Drummer 3 one of the stock dry kits. Then I played bass using a J Bass via the apollo DI Then I played the lead guitar, using a strat into Helix LT. The Bricasti M7 is used with the WAITS ROOM Preset providing ambience and the Capitol Chambers is the Reverb . Each track has an instance of Oxide on it. Each track has 1073 Vocal Compression is the Fairchild 670 Both guitars have LA2A's on them The stereo buss has SSL G Buss and ATR102 All uad plugs Static fader mix no rides yet Cheers Wiz Guitar Strings Pen Paper
GREAT song! I love it. Unfortunately it'll probably never be a hit because:
It's too well written
It's too well performed
It's too well produced
It deals with real life emotions
There's no detectable autotune on the vocal
......
I really, really like the understated lead guitar.
I don't give a damn if it was produced using mostly digital stuff. No matter what any of the monkeys at GS say.
Great work. If we can ever get my time machine working we can go back in time and make a million dollars. (Why "We"? The time machine was expensive to run, and new flux capacitors ain't cheap, either, when you can find one. Hell, I'm still looking for a new rubber band for my plane!)
How true.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 17, 2020 10:16:47 GMT -6
Fantastic work here, my man. Just a great sound. To me, this is how music is supposed to sound. Natural, lovely.
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Post by reddirt on Mar 17, 2020 12:27:04 GMT -6
As is our wont we obsess over the smalls ( that’s our job for sure) but does the sound serve the song ? - yes it does; most of which is down to Wiz but there’s enough there that
tells me the X series ( probably with Luna after its bed down period) is a goer.
Yet (and I know this is a very quick recording and mix Wiz so I am a little loath to comment but we are friends here right.?)😁, I would say further work on the Vox ambience could perhaps give the song that extra “thing”.
Thanks mate.
Cheers, Ross
P.S. in a time of Corona there may well be a lot of music made ( silver linings etc).
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Post by wiz on Mar 17, 2020 17:12:09 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for the feedback, all really appreciated.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 17, 2020 17:25:33 GMT -6
OK - finally got to turn it up. Dude - that sounds fantastic. The best you've sounded IMO. Anyway - I would say like most others - it's the crashes that bother me. Maybe try playing with the velocity of the cymbals. Bring them way down...also thought there were too many. Guitars sound fantastic and the stereo image is killer.
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Post by wiz on Mar 17, 2020 17:33:49 GMT -6
OK - finally got to turn it up. Dude - that sounds fantastic. The best you've sounded IMO. Anyway - I would say like most others - it's the crashes that bother me. Maybe try playing with the velocity of the cymbals. Bring them way down...also thought there were too many. Guitars sound fantastic and the stereo image is killer. Hey John thanks so much for taking the time and effort to check it out properly... Its really cool of you. Considering the crashes are the stock kit, and I am new to them, I am sure by album time, I will have them dialled in...thats the wonderful thing about S3 I can go back at anytime and change them, and delete if too many etc.... I am really enjoying tracking my vocal and guitar at same time through the apollo with Capitol Chambers verb in the cans.. really sets the mood. Its getting really good performances out of me.... the most important thing. thanks again bud Cheers Wiz |
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