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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 9:44:08 GMT -6
Newbie question for all the engineers here. I have pretty decent preamps. Now im talking tracking only, not mixing, i rather leave the for people with experience. After Pre> does having EQ (with transformer), in this case im thinking RND 551 or Electrodyne 511 helps improves /color/ warmth/ enhance the sound? im a big fan of transformer sound. this is to kind of to match how its on the console (pre, eq, comp etc) or will i be wasting money? and the difference is too little/subtle. for example, some people say 1073 isnt a 1073 without the EQ whether engaged or not engaged, it still gives a more bigger 3d sound.
Also another thing, i dont have much experience with EQ so i wouldn't commit to anything and leave it for mixing engineer. This is just having it in the chain and use it for maybe Hi-pass or leave it flat or not engaged. Or is having less is more? the less things in signal chain, the better
read some opinions that spend money on microphones, which makes bigger difference and get it right at the source which makes complete sense. or is that something i have to try and find out for myself if the difference to my ears is worth it. i would hate to spend all that money just to experiment so i rather hear it from professionals here
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Post by drbill on Mar 4, 2020 10:37:19 GMT -6
Buying an EQ and not using it is kind of silly IMO. Engage the thing and twist knobs until you like it. There's no right or wrong. Maybe just not go to FAR with your EQing if you're nervous about messing up. Otherwise, don't buy it. Put something like a Mr. Focus Stage II after your mic pre, and get it's goodness. Also, it has a "tilt" style filter that is VERY difficult to mess up. Super simple, great sound. There are some guys on here using them, but they are designed to be....the second stage. The circuitry after the mic pre, but before the busses of the console. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 11:01:38 GMT -6
Engage the thing and twist knobs until you like it. There's no right or wrong. thanks and good idea. i will look into Mr. Focus Stage II
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Post by christopher on Mar 4, 2020 11:47:05 GMT -6
The heritage 73eqJR is the 500 series EQ stage, they did a good job on it. Its very clean and clear, like glass. The 'weight' from the transformers exists but not very much, its kind of minimal IMO. It does make everything it touches have a gorgeous clean flavor of neve-y. The classic weight from the 73 can be felt better by dialing the low shelf and pushing it up a dB or 2, wow! So good! I use EQ quite a bit but its very invisible, until its overdone, so its best for when you can't find the perfect placement. (You won't remember if you used EQ or not.. its that smooth.) It has an output potentiometer, so you can drive the input transformer hard, it sounds best this way ...before breakup.. but its still a clean sound. You'd need another stage after the EQ to pad the signal if you want to overdrive the output trannies, converters won't be able to handle it. In my experiments, its the input transformer that gets the most benefit: hit it light with output pot on max=brighter thinner sound. Hit the input hard, output pot down= deep rich sound. Basically always keep the output lower and drive the input on this guy. Its not that girthy, meaty, driving transformer thing I think of, its a clean thickening magic type thing. For some extra meat I'd look at the LTL stuff for sure.
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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 4, 2020 11:52:50 GMT -6
+1 on the mr focus as Drbill said nice tilt eq and mine has the smash comp and mass driver card installed . All kinds of great colors .
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 4, 2020 13:44:19 GMT -6
Any EQ is going to add some THD, subtle phase shift, noise, etc to the signal. Even if set flat. It will likely be very subtle unless you're really dumping some voltage into it.
I think this not accurate. In a 1073 if the EQ is bypassed...it is bypassed. Now, whether some clones without the EQ are accurately reproducing the circuit (in bypass) or sound like an actual 1073 is another thing entirely.
If you want to play with something like this, buy a used transformer on ebay or get one from Cinemag. One is not expensive, maybe ~$30-50. Wire it up after your pre, see if you like what it does. Or wire a pair into your patchbay and use them wherever you like. Or buy a Portia Street Stomp from us (shameless plug). Though generally these kind of things are subtle changes.
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Post by ragan on Mar 4, 2020 14:05:52 GMT -6
I want one of those Portias. Though, to be fair, I want one of everything you guys are making (ok, two of everything).
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 4, 2020 14:08:24 GMT -6
I know a guy that can help with that
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Post by nudwig on Mar 4, 2020 18:31:35 GMT -6
Buying an EQ and not using it is kind of silly IMO. Engage the thing and twist knobs until you like it. There's no right or wrong. Maybe just not go to FAR with your EQing if you're nervous about messing up. Otherwise, don't buy it. Put something like a Mr. Focus Stage II after your mic pre, and get it's goodness. Also, it has a "tilt" style filter that is VERY difficult to mess up. Super simple, great sound. There are some guys on here using them, but they are designed to be....the second stage. The circuitry after the mic pre, but before the busses of the console. Good luck. Stage II's are where it's at. I was reminded of this last week when doing live video recordings with a location sound mixer. I was having trouble getting the normal sonic sweetness I'm used to (using all my same mics) and had to run everything through Stage 2's to get to what I felt was a good starting point for mixing. They saved the day yet again.
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Post by drbill on Mar 4, 2020 20:24:14 GMT -6
Buying an EQ and not using it is kind of silly IMO. Engage the thing and twist knobs until you like it. There's no right or wrong. Maybe just not go to FAR with your EQing if you're nervous about messing up. Otherwise, don't buy it. Put something like a Mr. Focus Stage II after your mic pre, and get it's goodness. Also, it has a "tilt" style filter that is VERY difficult to mess up. Super simple, great sound. There are some guys on here using them, but they are designed to be....the second stage. The circuitry after the mic pre, but before the busses of the console. Good luck. Stage II's are where it's at. I was reminded of this last week when doing live video recordings with a location sound mixer. I was having trouble getting the normal sonic sweetness I'm used to (using all my same mics) and had to run everything through Stage 2's to get to what I felt was a good starting point for mixing. They saved the day yet again. Awesome Nudwig!! I feel the same. I've got 12 of them in various configs, and they are in constant use.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 11:09:08 GMT -6
I agree that if you're looking to just add some "extra" to your stuff, the Mr. Focus is really rad. If I'm being honest, I went into it as a skeptic, but I'm fully in love with mine now. I have 2 Stage II's and a Comp. I just got a Pentode MKII card in the mail yesterday to try out.
It took me some time to hear the value. It wasn't an immediate night/day kind of thing (still isn't), but as someone who likes the additive effect of lots of small/subtle moves vs. big swings in my mixes, I'm finding them to be very effective. It's like that extra 10% that tips the thing over the edge when used modestly, but you can definitely get some pretty blown out and more extreme sounds as well. I just tend to go for the former more often than not. The Focus EQ is neat. It's interesting how you can crank it to both extremes without completely eradicating any semblance of the original sound. Sometimes just a small tip in one direction or another can make a marked effect.
I also just built a DIYre L2P box (so easy) to use preamps as line level devices for similar purposes and that's been nice too. Might be worth a look.
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 6, 2020 9:04:40 GMT -6
If I understand your Q correctly, you want to track with EQ so that you're printing EQ. If so, keep in mind that you'll be painting your masters tracks with that color of EQ. There's no going back on that once you're in post. If that is what you're considering, also consider waiting until the mix stage to add EQ. When you're tracking, you have no idea how things will sit in the mix. EQing at tracking could work great, or it could make your life (or your mix engineer's life) far more difficult at mix time.
Just a thought.
-09
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Post by svart on Mar 6, 2020 9:06:29 GMT -6
I built all my patchbays so I could route preamps through EQs and effects before the converters and be bold and make decisions and stick with them!
After retracking so much stuff for making wrong decisions and doing too much on the way in, I no longer use EQ and effects during tracking.
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Post by drbill on Mar 6, 2020 11:51:12 GMT -6
Haha! You're supposed to make the right decisions going in. LOL. We've all made mistakes though. Whenever possible, I try to make the mistake work in my favor. Sometimes takes me down interesting paths I wouldn't have taken naturally.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 12:57:59 GMT -6
If you don’t have a lot of experience and you’re not the one mixing what you tracked, I would advise you not to do it and just not to clip anything at all while maintaining reasonable signal levels. Some of my clients couldn’t even manage that with great gear! They would clip everything or record so quietly that even if they had the best AD in the world, their tracks would not hold up to processing.
The mixer can always get it back out of the box. Today’s better sounding and cleaner pro converters (MOTU, Lynx, Apogee, DAD, Merging, etc) can take many AD-DA-AD passes before the noise and distortion breaks though audibly. You’ll get detail loss and coloration but that’s the case for everything. They can make rough tracks that are clean enough to withstand all the digital processing you want.
The same is not true for older or budget gear. I’ve had very bad experiences (noise floors and built up digititus) with clients sending me tracks recorded on Focusrite Scarlett, Presonus, and RME interfaces in project studios, many of which are not too awful acoustically. I do a lot of “rescue mixes” of poor recordings that could only be screwed up more and believe me, if they have a Presonus, they don’t have anything clean like an FMR RNC or Neve EQ not some awful Chinese made junk on the way in. It’s going to be some awful ART or Dbx channel strip type thing.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 8, 2020 21:13:12 GMT -6
Doing it wrong is the only way to figure out what you don’t like. Which will lead you to what you do like, and to what works on different instruments and different styles of music with those instruments. Get an eq, twist the knobs, mess around with it, have fun and learn.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 22:29:55 GMT -6
hey guys thanks for all the input on this.. i think i want to try getting just one RND 551 or Electrodyne 511 just to see engage it and twist knobs to see what difference i hear. i guess there is no right or wrong answer, its something i have to hear on my own. i want to be able to shape my kicks/snares and it would be good thing to test on hiphop drums going into DAW. if i dont like it or something i feel im not ready to commit, id just sell it.
many thanks!
oh and on sound on sound review it does say "The 551 is transformer-balanced in and out, and this brings a useful side-benefit of allowing the unit to add a little analogue flavour when the EQ section is bypassed through the transformers and buffer amps" ... i wonder subtle is this effect.
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Post by Chad on Mar 9, 2020 8:14:56 GMT -6
I really like the pair of RND 551s that I own. Very nice low end & mids. There is a "sweetness" that appears simply running a signal through it with everything zeroed out, and I've used it that way as well.
The top end is good (just a shelf at 16khz or 8 Khz), but I think it shines most in the mids/lows.
Wiz here on RGO never liked his 551s and sold them, so that's a contrary opinion from an extremely talented artist/producer which you may wish to consider as well.
One last note... On the 551... Unlike my Heritage Audio '73 eq jr, there is no way to disengage individual bands. So... Those 3 bands of inductors are always "doing their thing" while the unit is engaged. Something I've noted for my own use is that it's important which frequency the mid band is set to (even if it's not boosting or cutting). Unless I'm using the mid band, I typically turn that band all the way down to 200 Hz when running a signal through it so that I'm not getting extra "harmonics" added in the upper mids (which I think can make it sound a bit scratchy or edgy).
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 9, 2020 9:42:20 GMT -6
I'd hazard a guess that the 551 only uses an inductor for the mid band and the low and high are RC shelving filters. Probably why you're noticing that.
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Post by Chad on Mar 9, 2020 11:46:03 GMT -6
Here's the literature from the RND website. That's an interesting observation, Dogears! :-)
"The 3-band, custom-tapped inductor EQ on the 551 was inspired by RND’s favorite portions of Rupert’s vintage EQ designs. The low frequency band is designed to produce a creamy, resonant bass response – however, unlike the vintage modules that inspired it, the LF band on the 551 can be used as either a shelf or a peak filter, adding punch, dimension, and control to your low end. The 551’s inductor midrange band is ideal for sweetening vocals and instruments while bringing them forward in a mix, and its proportional “Q” response makes it well-suited for minimizing problematic frequencies. The high frequency band is a hybrid vintage / modern design, blending inductor circuitry with capacitor-based topologies to achieve vintage tones with enhanced control. The High Pass filter is a 12dB/octave design with a fixed 80Hz frequency, and can be used in tandem with the low frequency EQ to add low-end presence without clouding the source material.
As Rupert originally intended with his most prized classic designs, each EQ section uses low-feedback, class-A discrete electronics to prevent low-level artifacts and harshness from detracting from the tonal shaping. However, this new circuit is a decidedly modern design with updated techniques and components that were simply not available 35 years ago, and should not be considered a “clone”.
Both the high and low band can be switched from shelf to peak curves and offer 15 dB of boost or cut. The high band can be switched from 8 kHz to 16 kHz, and the low band can be selected at 35 Hz, 60 Hz, 100 Hz or 220 Hz. The inductor based Mid Band offers 6 center frequencies; 200 Hz, 350 Hz, 700 Hz, 1.5 kHz, 3 kHz and 6 kHz. The Mid Band also has a “Mid Hi Q” switch to narrow the bandwidth (increase the Q) of the filter."
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 9, 2020 12:36:41 GMT -6
ah missed that, looks like its inductors everywhere then. Thanks for sharing.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2020 13:44:18 GMT -6
If your afraid of screwing something up by using EQ during tracking there’s a really simple solution: Split the single coming out of the pre, take one leg straight to the AD the other to the EQ then the AD. In the digital age you have more than enough tracks. This is also great way to learn how to use EQ by having a dry example to compare.
Oh all the uses for a patchbay full of mults.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 14:50:12 GMT -6
If your afraid of screwing something up by using EQ during tracking there’s a really simple solution: Split the single coming out of the pre, take one leg straight to the AD the other to the EQ then the AD. In the digital age you have more than enough tracks. This is also great way to learn how to use EQ by having a dry example to compare. Oh all the uses for a patchbay full of mults. Great idea, I can track both so if mix engineer isn't feeling one thrr is always original unprocessed version. What additional gear do i need to achieve this? Do I need a patchbay for this?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 9, 2020 15:30:12 GMT -6
If your afraid of screwing something up by using EQ during tracking there’s a really simple solution: Split the single coming out of the pre, take one leg straight to the AD the other to the EQ then the AD. In the digital age you have more than enough tracks. This is also great way to learn how to use EQ by having a dry example to compare. Oh all the uses for a patchbay full of mults. Great idea, I can track both so if mix engineer isn't feeling one thrr is always original unprocessed version. What additional gear do i need to achieve this? Do I need a patchbay for this? You should invest in a good patchbay, but a good old fashioned Y- cable will do, I also have always suggested investing in a line level 3 way splitter. Why 3 way ? Here is the deal one split in a transformer splitter is always the original signal and the others the transformer. In theory the straight output is cleaner, but the 2 transformer splits should have very similar characteristics. The three way just gives more sonic choices. Will you need the transformer over the Y- cable that often? No but someday you will need it and those ground lift switches sure do save the day.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 9:36:31 GMT -6
Feel like you're overthinking. I don't know if spending 1k on an EQ that you're so unsure about actually using to EQ things is the smart move, but if you do do that, then just experiment at times when you're not on a time crunch with clients or the like. Spend a couple hours experimenting on client's work (off the books) or with your own stuff... any low stakes scenario. If you like how it sounds EQ'd, cool! Press record! If not, keep trying. It's not that big of a deal really. I'd be WAY more cautious with compression (and am), but I do both tracking now and I feel pretty confident doing it because I fucked around a lot on my own time to find patterns in what works and what doesn't. There are still times though, when I find myself trying to EQ something, realizing I'm spending too much time with it, then bypassing it. You never want it to interrupt the flow of a session like that. And obviously, don't default to it. Get the source as right as you can first.
I've also messed up, just like everyone else. It makes your job a little harder, but it's not the end of the world.
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