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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 3, 2020 12:12:16 GMT -6
What's the consensus in 2020...Do you guys just master to one LUFS range and call it a day? I have always tried to master around -10 to -9 LUFS...but is anyone doing different mastering for the streaming?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 3, 2020 12:14:12 GMT -6
Had a budget project a while back that I mastered (yes, I would rather hire a real mastering engineer given the money) that I specifically mastered to -14 LUFS for Spotify. Now, when I compare it to any major project, it's a good bit lower in volume. Made me not want to play by the rules anymore.
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Post by mcirish on Mar 3, 2020 12:21:14 GMT -6
I've had similar experiences with Spotify no matter how loud it was mastered. I'm thinking they are getting their averaging info in some way that I am not taking into account. I had a recent project that was mastered by a good mastering engineer. Sounds good but it doesn't reach the same level that other things on Spotify hit. I'm wondering if the low end in my master is fooling the LUFS meter into thinking it is louder than it is. Kind of disheartening to work on a project and then not hear it come back in streaming as you thought it would.
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Post by mulmany on Mar 3, 2020 12:29:46 GMT -6
My last set of mastering projects I ran at -12 lufs long-term.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 3, 2020 12:38:00 GMT -6
I've had similar experiences with Spotify no matter how loud it was mastered. I'm thinking they are getting their averaging info in some way that I am not taking into account. I had a recent project that was mastered by a good mastering engineer. Sounds good but it doesn't reach the same level that other things on Spotify hit. I'm wondering if the low end in my master is fooling the LUFS meter into thinking it is louder than it is. Kind of disheartening to work on a project and then not hear it come back in streaming as you thought it would. Or the major labels are paying for loudness
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Post by svart on Mar 3, 2020 12:39:33 GMT -6
I never look at LUFS. I usually end up around -10dB to -8dB RMS.
If you can't hit higher, check your sub frequencies. There's usually a lot less below 80Hz in pro mixes than people think.
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Post by Ward on Mar 3, 2020 12:45:37 GMT -6
I never look at LUFS. I usually end up around -10dB to -8dB RMS. If you can't hit higher, check your sub frequencies. There's usually a lot less below 80Hz in pro mixes than people think. HPF at 30hz HARD, and do the same with LPF at 16.1K That alone saves you a LOT of wasted space. And makes the bottom sound punchier and the top end less rizzy or swirly. And you're right about 80, since many hard cut at 40hz and 14K.
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Post by pouletdegrains on Mar 3, 2020 13:16:48 GMT -6
From what I understand, reading various publications and guidelines relative to the different standards used by streaming platforms, your ability to get your tracks "loud" on platforms depends 1) on the genre (dynamic range, structure, existence of quiet sections,...) and 2) on how the various algorithms will react (or be tricked) by the prominence/absence of some frequencies. As an example, here is how Spotify apply normalization and loudness penalties to tracks, according to this article published by Izotope: "First, a loudness filter that emulates the sensitivity of the human ear is applied, rolling off below 150 Hz and accentuating frequencies around 3–4 kHz. Second, the file is sliced into 50 ms long blocks and the RMS level of each block is calculated and stored. Third, these RMS levels are sorted from softest to loudest on a scale from 1 to 100% and the value at 95% is chosen as the representative loudness of the whole file." www.izotope.com/en/learn/mastering-for-streaming-platforms.html
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 3, 2020 14:02:04 GMT -6
I always do this by ear and decide how the material sounds at the final target level. The material always dictates what you can get away with. But, if I had to throw out a number, I would say between -18LUFS and -14LUFS is where I live.
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Post by donr on Mar 3, 2020 14:27:17 GMT -6
I'm only relating my own experience, I don't know anything about the actual job of mastering, or how tracks fare on streaming. I think the loudness key is how you manage the 6-9 db difference between peak and average levels left after making the mix as loud as it can go, and as is fashionable today. Some mixes that may meter loud don't sound loud, or sound choked or opaque. The trick I think, is to make the mix punchy and somewhat resilient with some apparent depth when there's only 6 dB difference between the loudest and softest component.
I do better mixing into a "premaster" 2bus, with plugs like CLA mix and Ozone and ProL2 in place to let me know what it'll sound like when it's squashed to release form, then without.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 3, 2020 14:35:07 GMT -6
I never look at LUFS. I usually end up around -10dB to -8dB RMS. If you can't hit higher, check your sub frequencies. There's usually a lot less below 80Hz in pro mixes than people think. That’s about -15 to -11 LUFS ish
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 3, 2020 14:37:38 GMT -6
The only thing to take off is the final brick wall limiter. Everything before that affects the balance and more than a dB. or two on the brick wall also can. Mixing is about balance. Mastering is about final touches to make the balance translate.
Level-wise, it depends on who the most important listener is.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 3, 2020 14:39:38 GMT -6
The only thing to take off is the final brick wall limiter. Everything before that affects the balance and more than a dB. or two on the brick wall also can. Mixing is about balance. Mastering is about final touches to make the balance translate. You’re saying don’t bother with the limiter for streaming? Because they do it for you basically?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 3, 2020 14:43:28 GMT -6
Do whatever sounds best balance-wise. Limiting just a drum and bass bus with an L2 can sound great.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 16:05:40 GMT -6
Streaming kills the sound no matter what. Just do what you'd do for a CD or lossless download. Most of it's lossy, Tidal has a certain color, and most streaming software can't get the samples out of the device without them being molested by the OS. Better masters will always sound better.
It depends if their mix is cohesive and gels or not and if they used a bus compressor, tape, or analog gear drive properly on the 2 bus effectively. Home mixers can be anything. So many guys can't mix for sh1t now. The modern metal and rock guys who use tons of limiters on everything, fuzz clippers everywhere, their mixes are hopeless anyway. Just make it as loud as they want it and their thin high gain guitars that are already distorting distorting even more because they're hitting a digital limiter can take it. Basically don't limit it lower than the already limited guitars. A limited drum bus? Go for it depending on the recording. Sometimes you can boost it a little bit where the fundamental is and smash it even more for more weight and loudness.
Old school with no sine wave kicks and basslines? I HPF at 40hz, LPF only if it's for vinyl or nasty like ADAT or early 16-bit daw, no look ahead limiting, no clipping. HPF at 12-14 khz is usually very doable and might eliminate some nastiness. Very slight compression to gel things and maybe soft limiting to catch stray peaks if no effective bus compressor or the bus compressor didn't glue well enough because it was for color. Sometimes guitar leads and vocals weren't compressed enough on the way in or in mixing and need to be held in place or the bus compressor didn't catch the drums jumping out. No hard limiting for me. I make it cohesive like a record and try not to have any intersample overs. Peaks under clipping. That's it. You don't know how anyone's conversion will react to intersample overs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 16:08:24 GMT -6
The only thing to take off is the final brick wall limiter. Everything before that affects the balance and more than a dB. or two on the brick wall also can. Mixing is about balance. Mastering is about final touches to make the balance translate. You’re saying don’t bother with the limiter for streaming? Because they do it for you basically? It's often like the radio. What does in does not come out the same. Don't worry too much about it.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 3, 2020 16:16:06 GMT -6
I never look at LUFS. I usually end up around -10dB to -8dB RMS. If you can't hit higher, check your sub frequencies. There's usually a lot less below 80Hz in pro mixes than people think. Exactly the same here. I'm usually keeping an eye out for -9 RMS on my meter. Any more than that and it gets real messy. If it needs to be even louder some clipping can help add some apparent loudness without changing the meters too much. My technique is to build compression from track, to busses, to mix buss which has compressor and finally the limiter. They all play hand in hand. Getting all the compressors behaving correctly is a big part of getting a good mix.
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 3, 2020 16:57:30 GMT -6
Master for (sensible) CD levels and it will work out fine - no matter what the internet chatter says. I’ve attended sessions at two of the top mastering houses in Europe. There was no LUFS meter on sight. It needs to sound good and have the appropriate loudness for the genre, as easy and as hard as that.
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 3, 2020 17:02:13 GMT -6
What's the consensus in 2020...Do you guys just master to one LUFS range and call it a day? I have always tried to master around -10 to -9 LUFS...but is anyone doing different mastering for the streaming? To answer your specific question: those LUFS levels are fine. I’m familiar with them because they’re on display on Fabfilter L2 - if memory serves well it shows -9 as the low “CD” level. If I have to master one of my mixes it usually sounds good around that area. As far as I know from my chats with mastering engineers, big artists do not do streaming masters. If doesn’t make any sense. They do vinyl masters with no brickwall limiting though.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 4, 2020 13:26:02 GMT -6
Streaming kills the sound a LOT less when there is no clipping.
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Post by theglow on Mar 4, 2020 13:41:12 GMT -6
I’m still seeing commercial releases hover around -7 LUFS/-4.5 RMS on most of the stuff I listen to (modern psych/garage/“indie”). I’m still not comfortable going quite that loud, but aim for an average of -9 LUFS/-6 RMS on the loudest songs on the records that I master. I still have clients that want them louder, but I can generally talk them out of it.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2020 12:10:54 GMT -6
I’m feeling this topic. I want to mix to -18 or -20 RMS, feels good to me. But I’m listening on hifi and I know it will sound like a mess everywhere else. Decisions, decisions. I’m messing around with a louder mix, 7 Lufs.. it’s tolerable and sounds like modern references sort of, but like modern stuff the feeling and emotion is now kind of boring, I feel like I would need image and video to sell the energy to it. Pictures of people having a blast, that can help, because the sound is just boring to me, almost mono tone. And I’ve tried and tried to crack this loud thing, it’s so tough. I will certainly screw up the tone at this loudness, but I feel like I need to have a breakthrough or something.
Is it common for mastering to take a -18dB dynamic range between kick and mix, turn it into 7LUFS and sound mostly the same? Or do they submit mixes that are already squashed and mastering push them the extra couple of dBs? edit: I guess it doesn’t really matter because I have a real hard time naming any super loud references that I can enjoy fully. I can marvel at the engineering, but it’s tough to feel that deep connection for the loud stuff
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Post by Guitar on Mar 7, 2020 13:03:58 GMT -6
I think getting into some death metal, grindcore, thrash or something like that, will quickly teach you to appreciate a loud master. I realize that stuff is not for everyone though. But the loudness is really where you feel it the most, it gets inside of you.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2020 14:10:59 GMT -6
Thanks for the reminder monkeyxx... You reminded me that the loudest thing I've ever truly enjoyed is Fugazi's 'End Hits'. That recording was just too pushed, and when you cranked the stereo it was semi-painful, but so, so amazing! So now I'm curious and I did a search. Found the Youtube stream of what sounds like the original mix. Soooo amazing, VERY loud and pushing the boundries, but not as loud as today's stuff, phone is not enough.. you'd need a headphone amp.
Next I tried to find it on Apple Music Streaming. Its there, and its a remaster. Much louder in a modern way, sounds cleaner. Its fine for listening to while on the go because the album is amazing, and any mix will be great. Maybe I like the old mix because its already engrained in me? But if you can (if you have Apple music), take a listen and see which one has more personality, emotion and feeling?
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Post by Guitar on Mar 7, 2020 14:31:46 GMT -6
Thanks for the reminder monkeyxx... You reminded me that the loudest thing I've ever truly enjoyed is Fugazi's 'End Hits'. That recording was just too pushed, and when you cranked the stereo it was semi-painful, but so, so amazing! So now I'm curious and I did a search. Found the Youtube stream of what sounds like the original mix. Soooo amazing, VERY loud and pushing the boundries, but not as loud as today's stuff, phone is not enough.. you'd need a headphone amp. Next I tried to find it on Apple Music Streaming. Its there, and its a remaster. Much louder in a modern way, sounds cleaner. Its fine for listening to while on the go because the album is amazing, and any mix will be great. Maybe I like the old mix because its already engrained in me? But if you can (if you have Apple music), take a listen and see which one has more personality, emotion and feeling? Cool, I love Fugazi! They are definitely aggressive when they want to be. I love their whole creative depth though. I agree with you, however. I would say 95% of "remasters" or "remixes" are steps in the wrong direction. I routinely seek out original masters of material I love and have lived with, that has been "re-issued." One very notable exception would be the Giles Martin Beatles' re-do's, which I think are truly gorgeous sounding.
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