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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 16:30:06 GMT -6
So I finally have enough outboard to justify a patch bay setup. I picked up a Redco 96pt DB25 bay.
I have everything wired outs over ins, patchbay is set to full normal with isolated grounds.
The problem I'm encountering, is that when no patch cables are plugged in, something is generating signal and sending it to all of my gear. I can see it on the meters. It must be loud because it's overloading things, or in the case of compressors, causing a lot of gain reduction.
What am I doing wrong? (fully prepared for a bunch of follow up questions, so fire away. I've used a bunch of bays at other studios, but never set up my own)
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 21, 2020 17:22:59 GMT -6
Whatever the outputs on top will feed into your bottom row on the patchbay when you don’t have any cables inserted. You can test it by dead patching one end of your patch cables into your top row. That should break the normal and stop the signal from going to the gear.
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Post by christopher on Feb 21, 2020 17:25:17 GMT -6
I’m also wiring my patch bay at the moment, and had some issues with no signal on certain channels. It was a real head scratcher all week. Well... right before troubleshooting and after disconnecting all channels, I was restarting the PC and windows updated. The focusrite I was using for troubleshooting showed in the software it was passing signal on all channels, but after some hellish hours I wondered if the focusrite was actually working. Answer: no. So.. back to the RME, one channel at a time.. finally today all channels on my mixer are working, next will be getting the focusrite up. Anyway, I bring this up because the best way to go through stuff is one channel at a time, with a known signal generator (like a working CD player or mic pre or whatever) and a known Stand alone amp or headphone amp. I like my battery powered guitar amp, I just didn’t have any batteries on hand. Computers can be buggy sometimes.. so hopefully that’s what’s going on for you.. some sort of software thing.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 21, 2020 18:06:01 GMT -6
The best investment for QCing your patchbay is a cable tester, better yet one with a test tone generator. I buy multiples of the Behringer at a time.
My advice is tear it all apart and start over one norrmalled pair at a time. My gut instinct is you have it set to mult and not normalled
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Post by brianscheffer on Feb 21, 2020 21:21:39 GMT -6
I’m guessing that you may have some feedback loops going, resulting from outputs normalled to inputs of the same piece of equipment. Show us your layout and we can sort it out.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 22, 2020 1:32:43 GMT -6
Yeah I think you might have things just wired up in a loop.
If you can post a graphic of the oannel and it's config I'd bet we can help
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 22, 2020 8:31:42 GMT -6
Yup, feedback loop.....I had that happen when I made mine years ago. I just have mine setup for though operation so that no connection is made until I connect a cable.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 22, 2020 12:32:44 GMT -6
The best investment for QCing your patchbay is a cable tester, better yet one with a test tone generator. I buy multiples of the Behringer at a time. My advice is tear it all apart and start over one norrmalled pair at a time. My gut instinct is you have it set to mult and not normalled I use an Ebtech Swizz Army Knife, which is amazing. It tests anything except Speakon and BNC*. It also has a check for intermittent cables, which is a feature I haven't seen elsewhere. It does have a 1KHz signal generator, too. It even tests for phantom power. And it's built like a tank.
* - It doesn't test DB25, but I don't think any tester does, for fairly obvious reasons.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 22, 2020 12:35:33 GMT -6
Yeah I think you might have things just wired up in a loop. If you can post a graphic of the oannel and it's config I'd bet we can help Yes. a common beginner mistake is to wire ins and outs of the same device one over the other. If you do that normalling connects the input to the output. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 22, 2020 12:39:20 GMT -6
If you're setting your gear up in "tie line" fashion - Gear A outputs on top row, Gear A inputs on bottom row - YOU MUST NOT normal or half normal. or you will in fact have feedback loops.
If you're setting up your gear to work hybrid fashion with no patching necessary to put the gear into your DAW hardware insert - DAC outputs on top row to Gear A inputs on bottom row. Bay A. Gear A Outputs on top row to ADC inputs on bottom row. Bay B. Then, yes, best to half normal, or full normal.
Barring any software issues in the DAW this will work perfectly. (It's how I have my gear now. Started this go-around in the tie line approach. Bailed and set it up ala my second paragraph. Much less patching.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 9:42:57 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It's gotta be the feedback loop. Here is my layout template. ![]() Attachments:
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Post by swafford on Feb 24, 2020 10:30:06 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It's gotta be the feedback loop. Here is my layout template. I don't think you can make that work for normal or half normal without patching. Here's my Redco layout, just imagine the right side of the top connected horizontally to the left side of the bottom for one long Redco 96. If I want to use the MA (HendyAmp Michelangelo) on the Metric Halo ULN 1/2 All I have to do tell the software to send the master bus to ULN8 1/2 OUT and it will automatically connect it to the Michelangelo, then to the A Designs Nail and back into the ULN8 1/2 without using patch cords. I have everything color coded including the ends and start of wires (with tape) so I don't have to trace wires. When sh!t gets fvcked up. Which it does a lot!  |
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Post by drbill on Feb 24, 2020 10:40:46 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It's gotta be the feedback loop. Here is my layout template. ![]() Yes. You've got everything feeding back into itself. You're essentially doing what I would call a "tie line" setup. Read the last post I made. If you want to set it up this way, that's fine, but you can't normal or half normal anything or you'll have feedback loops. You will need to hard patch everything. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 24, 2020 10:42:08 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It's gotta be the feedback loop. Here is my layout template. ![]() Yeah thats a feed back loop on well, everything. You need to have everything non normaled for that to work. Which then means a physical patch cable is used every time. If you want to normal or half normal patch things then you need to re arrange stuff. But the easy way is to just change everything to non normaled. Depends on how you want to work. I like using Half normaled patch bays myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 11:02:57 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It's gotta be the feedback loop. Here is my layout template. ![]() Yeah thats a feed back loop on well, everything. You need to have everything non normaled for that to work. Which then means a physical patch cable is used every time. If you want to normal or half normal patch things then you need to re arrange stuff. But the easy way is to just change everything to non normaled. Depends on how you want to work. I like using Half normaled patch bays myself. Thanks fellas. I think the patching everything is probably the move for my set up, so I'll just flip those normal switches and get on with it. |
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Post by 000 on Feb 24, 2020 22:34:19 GMT -6
If you're setting your gear up in "tie line" fashion - Gear A outputs on top row, Gear A inputs on bottom row - YOU MUST NOT normal or half normal. or you will in fact have feedback loops. If you're setting up your gear to work hybrid fashion with no patching necessary to put the gear into your DAW hardware insert - DAC outputs on top row to Gear A inputs on bottom row. Bay A. Gear A Outputs on top row to ADC inputs on bottom row. Bay B. Then, yes, best to half normal, or full normal. Barring any software issues in the DAW this will work perfectly. (It's how I have my gear now. Started this go-around in the tie line approach. Bailed and set it up ala my second paragraph. Much less patching.) This is exactly how I have my patchbays set up. Half normalled - super flexible. |
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 26, 2020 11:38:17 GMT -6
If you're setting up your gear to work hybrid fashion with no patching necessary to put the gear into your DAW hardware insert - DAC outputs on top row to Gear A inputs on bottom row. Bay A. Gear A Outputs on top row to ADC inputs on bottom row. Bay B. Then, yes, best to half normal, or full normal. Barring any software issues in the DAW this will work perfectly. (It's how I have my gear now. Started this go-around in the tie line approach. Bailed and set it up ala my second paragraph. Much less patching.) Same here. Mic lines are hard patched to preamps. Preamps half-normalled to converters. Extra inputs on things (line inputs on my console and on my preamps) are half-normalled to get signal straight out of the converter outputs. My goal was to think of it in the most used ways and need as few patch cables as possible...and to have the opportunity to mult stuff out of the preamps into a couple different inputs/signal paths. Extra outboard pieces are outputs over inputs but not normalled. Setting up this way, you'll never track an un-compressed vocal again but you'll have the safety of an un-compressed vocal to fall back on if you push too hard...which is a thing I like doing! |
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 26, 2020 19:47:06 GMT -6
If you're setting up your gear to work hybrid fashion with no patching necessary to put the gear into your DAW hardware insert - DAC outputs on top row to Gear A inputs on bottom row. Bay A. Gear A Outputs on top row to ADC inputs on bottom row. Bay B. Then, yes, best to half normal, or full normal. Barring any software issues in the DAW this will work perfectly. (It's how I have my gear now. Started this go-around in the tie line approach. Bailed and set it up ala my second paragraph. Much less patching.) Same here. Mic lines are hard patched to preamps. Preamps half-normalled to converters. Extra inputs on things (line inputs on my console and on my preamps) are half-normalled to get signal straight out of the converter outputs. My goal was to think of it in the most used ways and need as few patch cables as possible...and to have the opportunity to mult stuff out of the preamps into a couple different inputs/signal paths. Extra outboard pieces are outputs over inputs but not normalled. Setting up this way, you'll never track an un-compressed vocal again but you'll have the safety of an un-compressed vocal to fall back on if you push too hard...which is a thing I like doing! Mics should never be patched through a typical (TRS or TT) patchbay*. I have a small XLR input only bay that feeds the inputs of my 8 channels of outboard pres; the mic ins in the console are hardwired to a snake.
* - there would be to potential to accidentally apply phantom to the output of a device that doesn't want to see it in the event that somebody makes a mistake. Also you don't want to run phantom through connectors that don't make simultaneous contact on th + and - connections; phantom relies on that simultanous contact to prevent sending a unbalanced +48 volt burst through the connected device.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 26, 2020 22:29:50 GMT -6
Same here. Mic lines are hard patched to preamps. Preamps half-normalled to converters. Extra inputs on things (line inputs on my console and on my preamps) are half-normalled to get signal straight out of the converter outputs. My goal was to think of it in the most used ways and need as few patch cables as possible...and to have the opportunity to mult stuff out of the preamps into a couple different inputs/signal paths. Extra outboard pieces are outputs over inputs but not normalled. Setting up this way, you'll never track an un-compressed vocal again but you'll have the safety of an un-compressed vocal to fall back on if you push too hard...which is a thing I like doing! Mics should never be patched through a typical (TRS or TT) patchbay*. I have a small XLR input only bay that feeds the inputs of my 8 channels of outboard pres; the mic ins in the console are hardwired to a snake.
* - there would be to potential to accidentally apply phantom to the output of a device that doesn't want to see it in the event that somebody makes a mistake. Also you don't want to run phantom through connectors that don't make simultaneous contact on th + and - connections; phantom relies on that simultanous contact to prevent sending a unbalanced +48 volt burst through the connected device.
Meh. This is done all the time everywhere. Just don't be a dumb ass with the phantom power and everything is fine. |
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 26, 2020 22:36:45 GMT -6
Mics should never be patched through a typical (TRS or TT) patchbay*. I have a small XLR input only bay that feeds the inputs of my 8 channels of outboard pres; the mic ins in the console are hardwired to a snake.
* - there would be to potential to accidentally apply phantom to the output of a device that doesn't want to see it in the event that somebody makes a mistake. Also you don't want to run phantom through connectors that don't make simultaneous contact on th + and - connections; phantom relies on that simultanous contact to prevent sending a unbalanced +48 volt burst through the connected device.
Meh. This is done all the time everywhere. Just don't be a dumb ass with the phantom power and everything is fine. Well, if you're the only one who ever works in your studio that's fine. But if outside people ever work there, Murphy's Law states that there's a good chance that something stupid - or, as they say, "accidental" is gonna happen, and at the worst/most unexpected time. The solution is to eliminate as many places that Murphy could sneak in as possible.
In the service manual for the original Crown 300 (not the 300A) there was a list of 10 or so Corrolaries of "Murphy's Law and the Art of Amplifier Maintenance" the final entry was "In case of conflict, Murphy's Law Supersedes Ohm's."
If it's good enough for the engineering staff at Crown, it's good enough for me!
And in this day and age just because something is done "everywhere, all the time" does not make it good practice.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 26, 2020 23:16:07 GMT -6
Meh. This is done all the time everywhere. Just don't be a dumb ass with the phantom power and everything is fine. Well, if you're the only one who ever works in your studio that's fine. But if outside people ever work there, Murphy's Law states that there's a good chance that something stupid - or, as they say, "accidental" is gonna happen, and at the worst/most unexpected time. The solution is to eliminate as many places that Murphy could sneak in as possible.
In the service manual for the original Crown 300 (not the 300A) there was a list of 10 or so Corrolaries of "Murphy's Law and the Art of Amplifier Maintenance" the final entry was "In case of conflict, Murphy's Law Supersedes Ohm's."
If it's good enough for the engineering staff at Crown, it's good enough for me!
And in this day and age just because something is done "everywhere, all the time" does not make it good practice.
Eh. Again. Not a bit deal. If its a visiting studio, chances are an engineer will be on hand to help with any visiting engineer that is new. It literally takes 10 seconds to say "Mic pres are here on the patch bay. Make sure phantom is off before patching or something could blow up." Murphy's law's a bitch. But most pro's aren't idiots and that is why most studio's just run it that way. At least most studio's i've been in have it that way. Save's space and space is a premium. Props to you for doing whatever you like. But its not the "wrong way" to do it. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 26, 2020 23:52:34 GMT -6
If I had $5 for every time I have mis-patched something I could take a trip to HI. I'd prefer not to have 48v running around in my bays.
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Post by thirdeye on Feb 27, 2020 7:00:19 GMT -6
Years ago I had phantom power running through a patchbay and never had an issue. These days it's XLR input panels though. Better safe then sorry.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 27, 2020 8:49:35 GMT -6
Same here. Mic lines are hard patched to preamps. Preamps half-normalled to converters. Extra inputs on things (line inputs on my console and on my preamps) are half-normalled to get signal straight out of the converter outputs. My goal was to think of it in the most used ways and need as few patch cables as possible...and to have the opportunity to mult stuff out of the preamps into a couple different inputs/signal paths. Extra outboard pieces are outputs over inputs but not normalled. Setting up this way, you'll never track an un-compressed vocal again but you'll have the safety of an un-compressed vocal to fall back on if you push too hard...which is a thing I like doing! Mics should never be patched through a typical (TRS or TT) patchbay*. I have a small XLR input only bay that feeds the inputs of my 8 channels of outboard pres; the mic ins in the console are hardwired to a snake.
* - there would be to potential to accidentally apply phantom to the output of a device that doesn't want to see it in the event that somebody makes a mistake. Also you don't want to run phantom through connectors that don't make simultaneous contact on th + and - connections; phantom relies on that simultanous contact to prevent sending a unbalanced +48 volt burst through the connected device.
Fear not! My mic line snake is hard patched to my preamps. My first patchbay points are after preamps. If I want to use channel 1 on my console I plug into channel 1 on my snake. I appreciate you making sure I'm not doing something potentially terrible! |
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 27, 2020 14:05:32 GMT -6
I grew up in Oklahoma and never got hit by a tornado.
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