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Post by matt on Feb 6, 2020 11:34:26 GMT -6
Sometimes I hear people say "A band is only as good as its drummer." IMO this is so true. As a life-long Led Hed, I've always thought that the devastating power of Led Zeppelin live came from the volcanic playing of John Henry Bonham. He was also the most likely to be "on" for every show, which was not always the case for Page, Plant, or Jones! Add to this his sense of groove and timing in the studio, and there you have it- in my view he was the ultimate rock drummer. GOAT. The band knew this, and quit when he died. He was the core of the "sound" of Led Zeppelin. I mourn his loss to this day, of what could have been. Drumming is everything for rock and probably just about every other genre, and coding it in SD3 or some such, while possible, is somehow never truly organic. That's why my drummer plays SD3 via an Alesis DM10 kit, modified to the max to stand up to the abuse, just to get real-life timing into Pro Tools. But it ain't easy, it's a constant struggle.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2020 12:30:49 GMT -6
Sometimes I hear people say "A band is only as good as its drummer." IMO this is so true. As a life-long Led Hed, I've always thought that the devastating power of Led Zeppelin live came from the volcanic playing of John Henry Bonham. He was also the most likely to be "on" for every show, which was not always the case for Page, Plant, or Jones! Add to this his sense of groove and timing in the studio, and there you have it- in my view he was the ultimate rock drummer. GOAT. The band knew this, and quit when he died. He was the core of the "sound" of Led Zeppelin. I mourn his loss to this day, of what could have been. Drumming is everything for rock and probably just about every other genre, and coding it in SD3 or some such, while possible, is somehow never truly organic. That's why my drummer plays SD3 via an Alesis DM10 kit, modified to the max to stand up to the abuse, just to get real-life timing into Pro Tools. But it ain't easy, it's a constant struggle. I like what Steve Albini said, "John Bonham is underrated." Even though he is widely regarded as the top rock drummer. Completely agree with you. Although programmed drums can be just as technical and just as devastating in the right hands. I'm thinking of Aphex Twin. Then you have the appropriate usage of simple patterns which can serve the song, tons of wonderful examples of that, my favorites are Ringo, Charlie Watts. I'm just saying there are many roads to good drums.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 6, 2020 15:12:57 GMT -6
I was lucky enough to work with so many great producers that I've never been willing to call myself a producer. It probably cost me a great deal financially but I've never been willing to live a lie. Now I'm not knocking people not having a producer because it's often not financially feasible and that's life.
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Post by wiz on Feb 6, 2020 17:43:38 GMT -6
I changed the title of the thread... thought it might be interesting to follow the self production of the tune.... Here is the second iteration. I took some of the feedback from here... Nothing remains of the original take Shortened the tune. Added basic drums by playing on my Roland TD17 and using Superior Drummer 3 Added basic bass part by playing my Variax 300 that has a fishman midi pickup installed on it, into IK Multimedia MODO BASS Added Taylor GS Acoustic Mini strummed rhythm Spaced Pair mic'd Added Strat part using IK Multimedia Amplitube 4 Added new main vocal part Production thoughts at this point. Its kinda cool having midi bass and drums vs my normal real drums and real bass, and being able to do something as simple as add a crash cymbal etc For what would normally be the solo section, thinking if I could maybe grab my daughters voice off a few old DVDs from when she was around 4 years old might be kinda cool rather than me playing a guitar solo. Here is V2 of the song Hey Darlin' Hey Darlin' V2
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 6, 2020 18:11:23 GMT -6
I like the direction it’s going. The strat adds a texture that really pulls me in and holds my interest and then the simple drumming moves the song along while maintaining a very mellow vibe. Very interested in hearing the next steps.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 6, 2020 18:20:23 GMT -6
A real record producer is like a theatrical or film director. It's somebody gifted at pulling better performances out of people than they believed themselves capable of. Yeah - if I'm "Producing" I think my most important job is casting the players. Finding guys that are interested and might bring something I wouldn't have thought about and make it even better. Problem with home production is there's no casting. You're the everything. My biggest issue with my home productions is that I'm incredibly tired of myself and "what I do." lol. The truth is, these incredible musicians all have a "thing." While they're all talented enough to do whatever style, people have specialties. I remember watching a posthumous Bowie Documentary where they were kind've going through the making of the songs...and with most of the hits the player would say, "David came in with the song and I played this:" and then they play the super famous lick that completely makes the song. So, as they say, "It takes a village..." Or as I say, "A village don't hurt..." I have played in two separate bands where we had me on guitar and then the same bass player. In both we started out as guitar, bass, and drums and then also a lead singer. It sounded too much like “me” and when we added a good keyboard player to one, and a second guitar player to the other is when in each case, I really felt we really started sounding like a band. Since being by myself again, it’s starting to sound too much like “me” again. Need to find some collaborators on these songs.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 6, 2020 18:43:24 GMT -6
Yeah - if I'm "Producing" I think my most important job is casting the players. Finding guys that are interested and might bring something I wouldn't have thought about and make it even better. Problem with home production is there's no casting. You're the everything. My biggest issue with my home productions is that I'm incredibly tired of myself and "what I do." lol. The truth is, these incredible musicians all have a "thing." While they're all talented enough to do whatever style, people have specialties. I remember watching a posthumous Bowie Documentary where they were kind've going through the making of the songs...and with most of the hits the player would say, "David came in with the song and I played this:" and then they play the super famous lick that completely makes the song. So, as they say, "It takes a village..." Or as I say, "A village don't hurt..." I have played in two separate bands where we had me on guitar and then the same bass player. In both we started out as guitar, bass, and drums and then also a lead singer. It sounded too much like “me” and when we added a good keyboard player to one, and a second guitar player to the other is when in each case, I really felt we really started sounding like a band. Since being by myself again, it’s starting to sound too much like “me” again. Need to find some collaborators on these songs. I finished a demo last week where I played everything. Ultimately had a drummer replace my programmed drums and it sounds like a totally different song. One great player can make a big difference.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2020 1:37:37 GMT -6
Added basic bass part by playing my Variax 300 that has a fishman midi pickup installed on it, into IK Multimedia MODO BASS Production thoughts at this point. Its kinda cool having midi bass and drums vs my normal real drums and real bass, and being able to do something as simple as add a crash cymbal etc I've tried the fishman, too, a while ago, and thought it would be a good idea to see, what comes up if I try to play a guitar to mimic a bass, at home, and having it in midi for further experimentation. Wow, I was really underwhelmed by my own performance ... Beeing a bass player with minimalistic tendencies at heart, I thought that my midi bass parts sounded like, ehm, when a guitarist plays a bass like a guitar ... I have been a bit too optimistic, obviously, and pretty much noticed instantly, that I would never play basslines like I did on the guitar. Expression, rhythm, melodic elements, everything I played and improvised felt wrong for me ... The Modo Bass actually did not sound all that good to me, as I heard it from demoes. But not too bad either. This method, as you might easily guess, did not work for me at all ... This in mind, I think you really did a pretty good job with this technique! It works in this song.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 7, 2020 10:51:27 GMT -6
Gotta say - I miss the real drums that were in some of your other recordings...and I wouldn't quantize if I were you - especially on songs like this. The drums are my biggest issue. I would think it also needs some "pad" instrument. Whether that's a slide part or a steel. Or B3 or whatever.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 7, 2020 12:44:49 GMT -6
My experience with quantization was that it was never accurate enough.
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Post by wiz on Feb 7, 2020 17:34:51 GMT -6
Gotta say - I miss the real drums that were in some of your other recordings...and I wouldn't quantize if I were you - especially on songs like this. The drums are my biggest issue. I would think it also needs some "pad" instrument. Whether that's a slide part or a steel. Or B3 or whatever. Hey John thanks for you feedback.....and the suggestions... was thinking b3 as well... cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 7, 2020 18:25:11 GMT -6
I'm really enjoying all the ideas and suggestions here, so I'll go out on a limb and show you guys a production that's far from finished in support of my idea of having a vision first. So, I wanted this new recording to be the first in a series of edgier tracks, a response to the times we're in. I thought of "Exile on Main Street's" rough edges, The War On Drug's willingness to stretch out and improvise over beautiful parts, and the way Tom Petty's tracks sometimes remain danceable all the way through, even though they're "Rock" based. So, I tracked two similar acoustic guitars and panned them hard L&R to a shaker track which is my "click", ( I hate hate hate click tracks). Then I sang a guide vocal. I'm usually careful to record this decently because it's often the first or second take of a new song I end up keeping. That said, I tried a pre-production prototype of a new mic instead of my go to vocal mic because I thought I'd recut it anyway. Next, I wondered if an electric slide guitar would fit the song. I didn't bother with an amp, just plugged into one of Logic's guitar sims and played, one take. It was a first try, nothing prepared at all and I was reaching for ideas and some were way off and nasty. But, this was supposedly just to see if a slide even fit in. I would recut a "better" tracks later. I sent the tracks to my good friend Herbie Ray Music, and he kindly put a cool bass on it and ran the tracks through his settings of Ocean Way and a few other things. I kept his electric guitar parts and bass, but returned to the the original guide vocal. On that, I experimented with putting the old fashioned ADT on the pre-chorus, trying for that Beatles double track vibe there. So, everything's still open to change, but where I've landed is I like the messy slide, might change drum sounds, and I'm wondering if a Nicky Hopkins style keyboard part would muddy it up, or add just the pinch of hot sauce it might need.. Of course, it's a quick mix, but here ya go, hope sharing my process informs and furthers the discussion. * almost forgot to mention, the second verse was 100% improvised. I actually had "better" lyrics for it in a book, but had forgotten about it. In keeping with my idea of being looser for this production, I just kept it even though it's might not be as strong as my other lyrics. https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/all-come-down-2020-rough-demoI replied to Martin in a rather long message.... but will summarise here... I think this is an excellent demo, and gives a real feeling of what the song could and should be. The process of taking those exact tracks and turning it into a radio ready album ready product, I am not sure. Live, this exact performance of the tune would be great, as a release product I don't think so. Getting from this to there.... thats the whole reason of this thread... 8) Cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 7, 2020 22:36:19 GMT -6
Thanks for listening closely Wiz. I believe the factor that would make the most difference would be getting real drums on it. Everything else is real. Of course some parts might get changed by the influence a real drummer would impart, but I think that would help it be more of a finished track.
Given time I may just get a real drummer on it, but there are some other pressing priorities at home right now.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 9, 2020 13:59:58 GMT -6
Gotta say - I miss the real drums that were in some of your other recordings...and I wouldn't quantize if I were you - especially on songs like this. The drums are my biggest issue. I would think it also needs some "pad" instrument. Whether that's a slide part or a steel. Or B3 or whatever. I agree with this. Also, as you've added these instrument textures, I found myself anticipating/wanting something more melodic and emotional from the chorus.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 12, 2020 19:28:12 GMT -6
Hey wiz,
I’m a little late to the party here.
At first listen to the original version you posted, I immediately thought - hey that guitar part is great If it’s going to be just a guitar/vocal. But, if you’re going to put other instruments in there it seems like a bit of a difficult job. So, my immediate reaction was to change up the guitar part a bit to allow some other instruments to fit in. My brain immediately went to reference Ryan Adam’s “Dirty Rain”.
Then scrolled through and heard your V2. I really dig it - BUT, I think I’d try it with the drums half time. I think it would lend to the tender vocal a bit more and allow you to throw in a shaker in spots.
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Post by wiz on Feb 13, 2020 1:09:23 GMT -6
Hey wiz, I’m a little late to the party here. At first listen to the original version you posted, I immediately thought - hey that guitar part is great If it’s going to be just a guitar/vocal. But, if you’re going to put other instruments in there it seems like a bit of a difficult job. So, my immediate reaction was to change up the guitar part a bit to allow some other instruments to fit in. My brain immediately went to reference Ryan Adam’s “Dirty Rain”. Then scrolled through and heard your V2. I really dig it - BUT, I think I’d try it with the drums half time. I think it would lend to the tender vocal a bit more and allow you to throw in a shaker in spots. Hey Jeremy thanks for the feedback ....I really like the half time drums idea gonna give that a shot
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2020 12:12:55 GMT -6
Positive of Apple's Drummer AI? It understands half time instructions. Toggle it back and forth, even. It knows how to fill INTO and OUT OF half time from normal. Just saying--beat libraries don't have that. Let alone does the average guitar player understand what differentiates half time from halving the tempo.
I think it's a good suggestion for the tune. I'd have gone there, but my point was what good could be done in so LITTLE time....and halftime usually takes a little more "instruction"....you loose the follow feature/filter....anyway....give it a shot.
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Post by wiz on Feb 25, 2020 18:32:39 GMT -6
I have been ill, stupid virus..... and I finally got a chance to do another try at this. I took the suggestion of the half time drums idea. This is all a recut. Vocal and acoustic cut at same time. Then I played drums. Created a tempo map from the acoustic guitar track, and tightened the drums to it. Played Bass guitar Then I put down the Ganjo (six string banjo) Then I played slide on the resonator. There is no EQ on anything, its as tracked. Bricasti Waits room and a little plate verb No compression at all. So its as you would hear it tracking. I am trying to arrange to track this tune live, with the drummer and bass player from a band I play in to see how it fairs like that...should be interesting. Cheers Wiz Hey Darlin V3 Half Time Drums
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 25, 2020 21:00:33 GMT -6
This is great, man. Dig it!
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 25, 2020 21:18:37 GMT -6
It was already cool. Now it is even cooler. You play with such restraint and seem to pick notes carefully. I tend to want to fill everything up with “noise”. This arrangement has plenty of space so the lyrics just soak into your ears. I like it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 25, 2020 21:51:48 GMT -6
I'm diggin' the half time too.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 26, 2020 6:21:57 GMT -6
sounds great!
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 26, 2020 8:34:35 GMT -6
Great tones! Almost has a reggae vibe the way the guitar interacts with the drums.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 26, 2020 11:16:12 GMT -6
I have been ill, stupid virus..... and I finally got a chance to do another try at this. I took the suggestion of the half time drums idea. This is all a recut. Vocal and acoustic cut at same time. Then I played drums. Created a tempo map from the acoustic guitar track, and tightened the drums to it. Played Bass guitar Then I put down the Ganjo (six string banjo) Then I played slide on the resonator. There is no EQ on anything, its as tracked. Bricasti Waits room and a little plate verb No compression at all. So its as you would hear it tracking. I am trying to arrange to track this tune live, with the drummer and bass player from a band I play in to see how it fairs like that...should be interesting. Cheers Wiz Hey Darlin V3 Half Time DrumsI like the double time too and with the slide it gives the song a very languid feel. I don't like the Gango. It feels regimented and works against the languid feel.
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Post by wiz on Feb 26, 2020 16:20:44 GMT -6
This is great, man. Dig it! thanks man
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