|
Post by wiz on Feb 4, 2020 23:59:59 GMT -6
We had a thread with the challenges of self engineering.... What about self production? Taking your original idea, and transitioning to a full band arrangement? This is the biggest stumbling block for me... I have a very easy time writing, singing and playing guitar...its transitioning from that to a full arranement and limitations of being the whole band myself....and turning out something that sounds great. Jo (wife and ex band partner for 20years) has always said that I should just do all my songs on acoustic guitar and vocal, as they have a certain magic that is very often erased by me taking the song and playing bass drums etc on it. Now, lets not focus on the fact that I understand that I could hire gun musicians etc ... lets discuss how we get this done ourselves... My biggest hurdle is always the rytmn section.. how I can come up with something that compliments the basic groove and phrasing of my original vocal and acoustic guitar performance.... take this as an example... which is exactly what i hear when tracking its just mics to preamps and a bit of Bricasti and Valhalla Plate I find it extremely simple to write and record something like "Hey Darlin'" below... its a song to my daughter when she was around the age of 3 or 4. I cannot for the life of me come up with a drum and bass part that doesn't suck.... There are such fantastic tools now, for instance this is tracked without a click but its super easy to build a tempo map in Logic for this with literally a button push... something that was always next to impossible previously.... thoughts? Cheers Wiz Hey Darlin'
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 5, 2020 0:31:01 GMT -6
realgearonline.com/thread/10852/self-producing-woes-solutions....was actually he thread the engineering was spawned from.... The rhythm tracks are my joy. So, i dont know if that means i have valuable input or the opposite. Have you tried the Logic drummer on “follow”? quick listen to the first part of your track says “roots brushes”.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 0:37:12 GMT -6
My personal drummer slave is Rayzoon Jamstix - one of it's brains can always be tweaked somehow to make a kind of cool drum track. Behaves a lot like a drummer minus it does not drink alkohol and does not try to flirt with your girlfriend. Jamstix is a very affordable one-man-company product and I find it very nifty. In the meantime I own nearly all of his addon stuff except flamenco and some 60's drummer stuff. Well worth to test out. Absolutely unique. In the meantime it is version 4 with some nice improvements and new features, but this video shows off best, how it works generally, explained by the developer.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 5, 2020 0:46:36 GMT -6
popmann @smallbutfine I have used both Logic Drummer and Jamstix..... thats what eventually led me to real drums and now a V Drums kit.. I never found either of those products usuable....other than if they DICTATED production... eg take what they give you and then build around it.. which never satisfied me... thanks for the suggestions though Cheers Wiz
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 0:55:41 GMT -6
Hmm, then it gets difficult. Btw., beeing a bass player, I never came across any program that really can lay out bass tracks in a really convincable way. One there was a program called "Ludwig" that used AI technology from the developers experience with chess computer programming, and it could do at least some nice arrangements. But it is not available anymore AFAIK... Oh, it is still available. The demo version can be downloaded for free and has only some limitations, that are not critical.
|
|
|
Post by iamasound on Feb 5, 2020 7:09:45 GMT -6
I hear no drums but do hear piano, vocal harmonies and minimal hand percussion. It's a sweet little song that for sensibilities need not become bigggg. Your voice as usual carries the overall message in such a beautiful way.
|
|
|
Post by saltyjames on Feb 5, 2020 8:16:23 GMT -6
Your wife is right. There is a special quality with just you and the acoustic.
I hear: Double micing that acoustic to get some real size and space. Moving the AG out and letting the voice be dry and up front would sound lovely to me. Wurlitzer A few piano touches Then some Hat / Shaker after the first verse around 1:10. Then a good strong bass and maybe raise the guitar tone up higher when the bass comes in somehow.
Maybe it's just me, but if I wrote this song I would try to get it under 3:30.
But overall it is the tempo that gets me. It is nice, the feel is cozy. But, here's the thing. In a modern world we have all become so accustomed to tight tempo all over everything that I notice that the looseness. If it was my song that would bother me. Maybe if you swung it more, but the song doesn't indicate wanting that. It seems the most logical approach here might be either following logic drummer part (personally, yuk. I would rather have your feel). Or have someone play a shaker part with you to add solidity and an extra rhythmic factor, a better option. To me human feel is always preferred.
I say all of this because I also agonize over this exact same stuff on most of my work.
Nice stuff. Your daughter is blessed to have you.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 5, 2020 8:58:35 GMT -6
I've used Superior Drummer 2 and EZ Drummer since I started at home. I did only one track with a real drummer on my last album. My buddy Dusty Wright did lots of tracks with Logic's drummer, but this week went up to Woodstock and did 4 tracks with a real drummer. It changed every production decision afterwards because the feel was different than any pre-made drums. He cut a bunch of guitar tracks out completely because the drum now felt so alive as to change what sounded good with it.
So, as a "Self Producer", it was a painful reminder that real drums can change things for the better, but are not always practical for many reasons.
Where I've landed with producing myself is I now try to decide what kind of vibe I want before tracking anything. My last album was Amercana in the way Ryan Adams is, part Country, part Rock, part singer/songwriter, much like Neil Young pioneered. Now, I want my next recordings to swing, more like Exile of Main Street, the War On Drugs or Tom Petty than my last album. This will inform all my production decisions. I might leave guitars rougher than usual, not polish as much and free up space for a little improvisation.
So I guess what I'm suggesting for artists like myself or Wiz, who've done many self produced recordings is don't just go back and do the same comfortable thing as last time, but choose an updated sound and approach it from that direction.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Feb 5, 2020 9:54:13 GMT -6
I think this is one of the hardest things for any single person to do.
Personally, I have never really been a good producer. I can come up with ideas all day but it's a different thing to "complete" them or garnish them properly. In the past this has always fallen on my collaborators in various group settings, which is a wonderful part about collaboration.
My point is, some people just aren't producers. Tchad Blake said this in Tape Op recently, he's not really minded like that. He's more of a mixer/engineer and a very good one. Steve Albini completely even rejects the idea of production.
Live drums all day for me, I agree with that advice. Unless you're doing a programmed style of music, like electronic, pop, or something like that.
I like Martin's idea of starting with a vision. I think that's probably what a lot of producers do anyway, when they sit with a band for the first time. Then you have a target to shoot at.
Maybe you could force yourself in a certain way. Make a rule, something like, "I want to do at least one extra live overdub on every song." Doesn't matter what it is, you just pick something and do it. Be hard on yourself and force yourself do develop new work habits. That is the only way I have been able to get into doing more overdubs over the years.
Sparse, minimal, is fine. But some stuff just won't hold up that way, it falls apart, it's not suitable for release. I guess you just have to recognize the differnence, be honest about what works and what doesn't.
Anyway this is a great topic for a thread, and I am looking forward to any further discussion. It's something I've struggled with and still need to get better at.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Feb 5, 2020 10:32:44 GMT -6
This one is a hard one because "my" ideas for arrangement are seldom as good as "our" ideas for arrangement.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 5, 2020 10:58:18 GMT -6
A real record producer is like a theatrical or film director. It's somebody gifted at pulling better performances out of people than they believed themselves capable of.
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 5, 2020 11:40:47 GMT -6
Before you listen: It's at full scale. It's basically a 15min spent with the AI--otherwise, it ain't glorious what I'd want on my record. It's the built in DKD sound (see 15 min). It would take me 15min just to get my script all linked up and running before I do the velocity modifications needed to do THIS part but nicer sounding samples.... www.dropbox.com/s/xwqzwo5r3cizui1/Hey%20darlin%E2%80%94Wiz_1a.wav?dl=0But, to even roughly equate Toontracks products with Apple's AI is absurd on a number of levels. But, it means your'e using it incorrectly for sure. I've made a whole record like this. I'm not sure I will again....but, I've been doing this a LONG time--and there's never been tech like this. It's FABULOUS for making a demo....for a final track? It takes a lot of extra work to get that extra whatever%. They could make it easier....but....I'm not sure they're ready to advertise this is here. See the legions of dumbasses on YouTube "explaining" the Logic Drummer. Anyhoo....
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Feb 5, 2020 11:48:23 GMT -6
I need to become someone else to do the backing tracks. If it’s me, then it will reinforce my perspective and I hate it. So lately I’ll play actor and pretend I am a hired gun for each instrument. I’ll give the character a dumb stage name, a little backstory. And then pretend I’m getting paid, don’t really like the song but I need to deliver, and pay homage to my roots which are in a different genre. I’ll choose settings on the instrument in ways I don’t prefer, but the character does. Silly, I know ... smh.. so sad. But it does break up my perspective.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Feb 5, 2020 12:03:44 GMT -6
I like producing better than engineering/mixing.
For me, I think this song (great tune, btw) is more emotionally impactful without drums. You are singing about something intimate and precious, your daughter. It’s very personal, but yet I connect with it in a way that makes me think of my own daughters.
I do hear harmonies, mostly ooh’s and aah’s, that are big and spacious, contrasting with the up close vocal and guitar. I might experiment with bringing in a roomy kick later on in the song, and maybe sparse tambo hits drenched in reverb.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 5, 2020 18:28:24 GMT -6
Your wife is right. There is a special quality with just you and the acoustic. I hear: Double micing that acoustic to get some real size and space. Moving the AG out and letting the voice be dry and up front would sound lovely to me. Wurlitzer A few piano touches Then some Hat / Shaker after the first verse around 1:10. Then a good strong bass and maybe raise the guitar tone up higher when the bass comes in somehow. Maybe it's just me, but if I wrote this song I would try to get it under 3:30. But overall it is the tempo that gets me. It is nice, the feel is cozy. But, here's the thing. In a modern world we have all become so accustomed to tight tempo all over everything that I notice that the looseness. If it was my song that would bother me. Maybe if you swung it more, but the song doesn't indicate wanting that. It seems the most logical approach here might be either following logic drummer part (personally, yuk. I would rather have your feel). Or have someone play a shaker part with you to add solidity and an extra rhythmic factor, a better option. To me human feel is always preferred. I say all of this because I also agonize over this exact same stuff on most of my work. Nice stuff. Your daughter is blessed to have you. Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment. All good points. Cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 5, 2020 18:29:50 GMT -6
I've used Superior Drummer 2 and EZ Drummer since I started at home. I did only one track with a real drummer on my last album. My buddy Dusty Wright did lots of tracks with Logic's drummer, but this week went up to Woodstock and did 4 tracks with a real drummer. It changed every production decision afterwards because the feel was different than any pre-made drums. He cut a bunch of guitar tracks out completely because the drum now felt so alive as to change what sounded good with it. So, as a "Self Producer", it was a painful reminder that real drums can change things for the better, but are not always practical for many reasons. Where I've landed with producing myself is I now try to decide what kind of vibe I want before tracking anything. My last album was Amercana in the way Ryan Adams is, part Country, part Rock, part singer/songwriter, much like Neil Young pioneered. Now, I want my next recordings to swing, more like Exile of Main Street, the War On Drugs or Tom Petty than my last album. This will inform all my production decisions. I might leave guitars rougher than usual, not polish as much and free up space for a little improvisation. So I guess what I'm suggesting for artists like myself or Wiz, who've done many self produced recordings is don't just go back and do the same comfortable thing as last time, but choose an updated sound and approach it from that direction. I found when doing "real drums" on a self played song..... They had to be first. Then you had to adapt all parts to them. This is one of the two major reasons I have gone Drums... in an attempt to over come that... we will see..... Cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 5, 2020 18:36:36 GMT -6
Before you listen: It's at full scale. It's basically a 15min spent with the AI--otherwise, it ain't glorious what I'd want on my record. It's the built in DKD sound (see 15 min). It would take me 15min just to get my script all linked up and running before I do the velocity modifications needed to do THIS part but nicer sounding samples.... www.dropbox.com/s/xwqzwo5r3cizui1/Hey%20darlin%E2%80%94Wiz_1a.wav?dl=0But, to even roughly equate Toontracks products with Apple's AI is absurd on a number of levels. But, it means your'e using it incorrectly for sure. I've made a whole record like this. I'm not sure I will again....but, I've been doing this a LONG time--and there's never been tech like this. It's FABULOUS for making a demo....for a final track? It takes a lot of extra work to get that extra whatever%. They could make it easier....but....I'm not sure they're ready to advertise this is here. See the legions of dumbasses on YouTube "explaining" the Logic Drummer. Anyhoo.... Hey Jamie thats really cool of you to take the time to do this, thank you mate. Really nice vibe... when you ran smart tempo, did you have a problem with it identifying the first beat correctly? I did.. .I had to do some manual futzing around for me to be able to create a tempo map so when I want to play drums against it I have a click.... Again I really appreciate the time and effort. Cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 5, 2020 18:38:22 GMT -6
I need to become someone else to do the backing tracks. If it’s me, then it will reinforce my perspective and I hate it. So lately I’ll play actor and pretend I am a hired gun for each instrument. I’ll give the character a dumb stage name, a little backstory. And then pretend I’m getting paid, don’t really like the song but I need to deliver, and pay homage to my roots which are in a different genre. I’ll choose settings on the instrument in ways I don’t prefer, but the character does. Silly, I know ... smh.. so sad. But it does break up my perspective. On my previous records, I have done this in a similar way... perhaps not as theatrical.. but certainly when playing each part being aware of what else needs to be laid down after it, and leaving holes rhythmically and melodically for that to happen thanks for commenting Cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Feb 5, 2020 23:39:21 GMT -6
Hey Jamie thats really cool of you to take the time to do this, thank you mate. Really nice vibe... when you ran smart tempo, did you have a problem with it identifying the first beat correctly? I did.. .I had to do some manual futzing around for me to be able to create a tempo map so when I want to play drums against it I have a click.... Again I really appreciate the time and effort. Cheers Wiz Yes, in fact I couldn't get the robot to do tempo at all. So, I pulled my phone out....Music Memos....and clapped along as it recorded your tune. Got what you hear right out of the gate. Ultimately--prior to Music Memos....you really had to clap (or click sticks or whatever sharp transient hand percussion) along with anything and detect form that. While SOMETIMES the autodetect would work--as someone who has done this a lot over a lot of years with a lot of different technologies--it was just always more robust to not mess with the autodetect. And anytime you have a part here where there's really almost implied ones....that's always going to throw a robot. I sorta chuckled when I saw it screw up--and it didn't help for ME to even define the downbeat for it--it still would get lost later. I did this record with Music Memos--the first bunch of songs was before Smart Tempo....but, the last handful I had Smart Tempo in LPX--and couldn't get it to work as well. I figured it was new....they'd work out those kinks....so I still used Music Memos for those to get the initial "tempo take" as I call it. Further thoughts unrelated to MM/LogicDrummer....I am ALWAYS going to follow the drums. Music doesn't work if you don't. Whether that's a real drummer playing in the room....a remote drummer playing to some track....godawful MIDI loops in Toontracks all stacked up to make "a song"....particularly as it relates to bass--my bass is SO informed by the drums--I've never been able to have PeteG (as example) cut afterwards. I mean--he's a great player and it's fully "competent"--but, until I recut the bass (at least) to his drums....it's not going to work for me. I've said this before, but a good drummer elevates your playing. NEVER by laying something on top of it--but, in how they inspire you to play better in a way that ANYTHING put on after you've played literally can't. Which is why people who've posted have had "ehh" experiences having drummer come in and play AFTER they've recorded to some drum loop. That's just not how music works, IME.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Feb 6, 2020 8:03:50 GMT -6
"Music doesn't work if you don't" I love that phrase.
Sometimes I hear people say "A band is only as good as its drummer."
Or the classic, the two things that really matter in any given mix are the lead vocal and the drum tracks.
I agree about playing with inspiring drummers, it's a truly wonderful experience, but I think any talented instrumentalist can add inspiration.
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Feb 6, 2020 8:03:51 GMT -6
Now, lets not focus on the fact that I understand that I could hire gun musicians etc ... lets discuss how we get this done ourselves... My biggest hurdle is always the rytmn section.. how I can come up with something that compliments the basic groove and phrasing of my original vocal and acoustic guitar performance.... take this as an example... which is exactly what i hear when tracking its just mics to preamps and a bit of Bricasti and Valhalla Plate I cannot for the life of me come up with a drum and bass part that doesn't suck.... My way of working, if I'm starting with a song with an acoustic guitar/vocal demo, is to start with a basic kick/snare groove with SD2 that feels right with the demo. Then, I write electric guitar parts (intro riff, verse chorus supporting chord parts/riffs etc)., which may or may not replace/augment/change the feel of the song. If I like it and think it improves the song, I then play/add a basic bass groove. Then, once I have my guitar parts working with the basic drum and bass parts, I'll add in drum fills and cymbal crashes etc. to make the drum performance more dynamic and interesting. After that's done, I'll overdub the bass in those places that I changed in the drum performance, to compliment the dynamics. Then, I'll see if there's keyboard parts that can enhance the song. If that all adds up to needing to overdub parts of the lead vocal, or add backup vocals, to compliment the changes, I'll do it. It's an intuitive process that I trust as I go along. So, sometimes I'll add the basic bass part before the keys, or if I think a part needs an organ, I'll add that. It's not the same sequence of events every time, but I let the song change as I add parts and get all the pieces to work together. If it is too much production after listening to the full song after all is done, I pair it down.
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Feb 6, 2020 8:46:10 GMT -6
This is a wonderful thread. Thanks for starting the conversation, Wiz!
A lot of posts have focused on technique: what comes first, how to get a good drum track from a scratch gtr/vox, etc. It's great to know how other folks do it; very useful. But what is Production, really? To me, it's the vision for the song, in the largest sense. Like a painting, with a matte, in a frame, on a wall, in a room. Production is the choices made that present the song in its final form. Simple example of a production choice is: should Wiz's lovely song to his daughter have drums?
So, I like the posts here that focus on the setting and how that gets done sonically. MJB's post on vision for the project. What emotion am I trying to convey? How's it gonna feel? What might be its sonic antecedents? How do those choices guide my choices of instrumentation and arrangement? To me, those are production questions that lead to production choices. Producers, in the classic sense of the word, see that big picture and work with the artist to create it.
The big problem, referencing the original question, is how do you do that by yourself? When there isn't a producer person to provide that perspective? My ideas, based on some experience with group process, are:
1. Roll with that initial burst of creativity. Take it as far as you can. Gtr/vox demo or multitrack rough mix, keep it going until the energy fades, then 2. Let it sit for a while. Get some space from it, so when you come back, you have a bit of objectivity. 3. Before you listen again, ask and answer the big questions above. 4. Listen as a producer, an outsider, as much as you can. (Role play might help here: pretend to be George Martin, Mutt Lange, Dave Cobb, Max Martin - what would they do?) Then start to build your production, based on #3. Stay close to how you feel. Art is mostly emotion with some head thrown in for practical reasons. 5. If you get stuck, or doubt your choices, try something like Oblique Strategies or the I Ching to move you in unexpected directions. Don't be afraid to try ideas that you think might not work. Or ask outsiders (but test their input against your gut - does it feel possible? right?)
My $0.02
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Feb 6, 2020 8:55:12 GMT -6
I cannot for the life of me come up with a drum and bass part that doesn't suck.... I think the song is telling you something, Wiz. This one is strongest when it's simple.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 6, 2020 9:31:48 GMT -6
I'm really enjoying all the ideas and suggestions here, so I'll go out on a limb and show you guys a production that's far from finished in support of my idea of having a vision first. So, I wanted this new recording to be the first in a series of edgier tracks, a response to the times we're in. I thought of "Exile on Main Street's" rough edges, The War On Drug's willingness to stretch out and improvise over beautiful parts, and the way Tom Petty's tracks sometimes remain danceable all the way through, even though they're "Rock" based.
So, I tracked two similar acoustic guitars and panned them hard L&R to a shaker track which is my "click", ( I hate hate hate click tracks). Then I sang a guide vocal. I'm usually careful to record this decently because it's often the first or second take of a new song I end up keeping. That said, I tried a pre-production prototype of a new mic instead of my go to vocal mic because I thought I'd recut it anyway. Next, I wondered if an electric slide guitar would fit the song. I didn't bother with an amp, just plugged into one of Logic's guitar sims and played, one take. It was a first try, nothing prepared at all and I was reaching for ideas and some were way off and nasty. But, this was supposedly just to see if a slide even fit in. I would recut a "better" tracks later.
I sent the tracks to my good friend Herbie Ray Music, and he kindly put a cool bass on it and ran the tracks through his settings of Ocean Way and a few other things. I kept his electric guitar parts and bass, but returned to the the original guide vocal. On that, I experimented with putting the old fashioned ADT on the pre-chorus, trying for that Beatles double track vibe there.
So, everything's still open to change, but where I've landed is I like the messy slide, might change drum sounds, and I'm wondering if a Nicky Hopkins style keyboard part would muddy it up, or add just the pinch of hot sauce it might need..
Of course, it's a quick mix, but here ya go, hope sharing my process informs and furthers the discussion.
* almost forgot to mention, the second verse was 100% improvised. I actually had "better" lyrics for it in a book, but had forgotten about it. In keeping with my idea of being looser for this production, I just kept it even though it's might not be as strong as my other lyrics.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/all-come-down-2020-rough-demo
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 6, 2020 10:48:08 GMT -6
A real record producer is like a theatrical or film director. It's somebody gifted at pulling better performances out of people than they believed themselves capable of. Yeah - if I'm "Producing" I think my most important job is casting the players. Finding guys that are interested and might bring something I wouldn't have thought about and make it even better. Problem with home production is there's no casting. You're the everything. My biggest issue with my home productions is that I'm incredibly tired of myself and "what I do." lol. The truth is, these incredible musicians all have a "thing." While they're all talented enough to do whatever style, people have specialties. I remember watching a posthumous Bowie Documentary where they were kind've going through the making of the songs...and with most of the hits the player would say, "David came in with the song and I played this:" and then they play the super famous lick that completely makes the song. So, as they say, "It takes a village..." Or as I say, "A village don't hurt..."
|
|