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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2020 10:36:28 GMT -6
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story. If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersWhat's objective? Everyone uses tax breaks to lower their tax burdens. I have yet to meet a person who doesn't at least take the standard deductions. Companies have to do it in order to keep net revenues high enough to keep their employees employed. I don't see the reason is bad for one and not the other.
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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2020 10:49:41 GMT -6
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story. If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersBut I'll bite on this a little, even though I don't necessarily agree with your position. Do you think these companies represent the 190 million companies around the world in these actions, or is it only a case of exploiting a small loophole that only a few companies could?
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 10:56:33 GMT -6
Do you really believe that most liberals (like myself) want to destroy the prosperous because we're envious of the rich? And that our desire for equal rights and equal opportunity is only a thin veil of smugness? Most liberals simply feel that the working man/corporate relationship is out of balance and needs adjusting. I don't want to live in Venezuela any more than you want to work for Enron. There are many Democrats that frequent RGO--great folks that you have much in common with. I'm not asking you to stop being a conservative, just suggesting that you have a little more nuanced and accurate view of what your liberal friends stand for. As for eBay, I still dabble and occasionally find things I want there. But with multiple fees and shipping costs I honestly don't know how any eBay store makes much money. And every time someone says "I work harder for 40k a year than that CEO does for his 4M a year!" That's envy, and unfortunately, I see and hear it all the time, surprisingly more from white middle class folks than anybody else. What I hate how CEO's, knowing the Greenspan Put is in place, will ruin their company by allowing excess risk to get short term stock and compensation gains, and then have regular taxpayers bail out their company and the Fed come to their rescue. Perhaps Alan Grenspan can help your objectivity. He said, : "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms,".
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 11:05:13 GMT -6
If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersWhat's objective? Everyone uses tax breaks to lower their tax burdens. I have yet to meet a person who doesn't at least take the standard deductions. Companies have to do it in order to keep net revenues high enough to keep their employees employed. I don't see the reason is bad for one and not the other. What's objective? Standard deductions are legal. Tax evasion is illegal.
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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2020 11:05:30 GMT -6
And every time someone says "I work harder for 40k a year than that CEO does for his 4M a year!" That's envy, and unfortunately, I see and hear it all the time, surprisingly more from white middle class folks than anybody else. What I hate how CEO's, knowing the Greenspan Put is in place, will ruin their company by allowing excess risk to get short term stock and compensation gains, and then have regular taxpayers bail out their company and the Fed come to their rescue. Perhaps Alan Grenspan can help your objectivity. He said, : "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms,". Because almost all publicly owned companies CEOs bow to the parasitic pressure of their boards and investors. Having worked with multiple multinational CEOs, they typically do have the best interest of the employees and company at heart. The investors usually don't. So yes, greed. But usually on the part of the people wanting to siphon money from something else. Be it corporate investors, or welfare queens, it's just people wanting more than their neighbors.
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 11:12:04 GMT -6
If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersBut I'll bite on this a little, even though I don't necessarily agree with your position. Do you think these companies represent the 190 million companies around the world in these actions, or is it only a case of exploiting a small loophole that only a few companies could? As an owner of an S Corporation who uses legal deductions, it appalls me that our tax system allows these loopholes. I think there should be some system in place to get back tax revenues from companies that exploit loopholes that shouldn't be there in the first place.
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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2020 11:18:42 GMT -6
But I'll bite on this a little, even though I don't necessarily agree with your position. Do you think these companies represent the 190 million companies around the world in these actions, or is it only a case of exploiting a small loophole that only a few companies could? As an owner of an S Corporation who uses legal deductions, it appalls me that our tax system allows these loopholes. I think there should be some system in place to get back tax revenues from companies that exploit loopholes that shouldn't be there in the first place. Fair enough. I also own a company and I pay my taxes, but I feel it unfair that I can't dictate where those taxes go. But I also know that government overreach and attempts to control and siphon revenue from capitalism have created the crony corporatism system we have today.
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 11:32:55 GMT -6
What I hate how CEO's, knowing the Greenspan Put is in place, will ruin their company by allowing excess risk to get short term stock and compensation gains, and then have regular taxpayers bail out their company and the Fed come to their rescue. Perhaps Alan Grenspan can help your objectivity. He said, : "I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interests of organisations, specifically banks and others, were such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms,". Because almost all publicly owned companies CEOs bow to the parasitic pressure of their boards and investors. Having worked with multiple multinational CEOs, they typically do have the best interest of the employees and company at heart. The investors usually don't. So yes, greed. But usually on the part of the people wanting to siphon money from something else. Be it corporate investors, or welfare queens, it's just people wanting more than their neighbors. Having worked for the multinational corporation Xerox, who is paying Richard Thoman $800,000 per year for life despite him manipulating revenue and earnings which ultimately plunged the stock when the SEC found out, and having a father who worked for Michael Dingman- one of the first of the true creeps who played his personal monopoly game to the detriment of thousands of employees in multiple businesses- and who fired my dad a month before he was to receive his pension after 30 years as an executive, I don't trust CEO's at all.
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 11:46:21 GMT -6
As an owner of an S Corporation who uses legal deductions, it appalls me that our tax system allows these loopholes. I think there should be some system in place to get back tax revenues from companies that exploit loopholes that shouldn't be there in the first place. Fair enough. I also own a company and I pay my taxes, but I feel it unfair that I can't dictate where those taxes go. But I also know that government overreach and attempts to control and siphon revenue from capitalism have created the crony corporatism system we have today. I think the opposite is true: Legal rent seeking, like wealthy corporations being able to spend more to lobby to get government contracts, have increased the wealth inequality we're seeing today. I think the nexus of government and capitalism in a symbiotic, revolving door relationship has been disastrous. I think it should be illegal for politicians to become lobbyists for example. Likewise, I don't think former CEO's of investment banks should be Treasury Secretary's.
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Post by svart on Mar 7, 2020 11:57:58 GMT -6
Because almost all publicly owned companies CEOs bow to the parasitic pressure of their boards and investors. Having worked with multiple multinational CEOs, they typically do have the best interest of the employees and company at heart. The investors usually don't. So yes, greed. But usually on the part of the people wanting to siphon money from something else. Be it corporate investors, or welfare queens, it's just people wanting more than their neighbors. Having worked for the multinational corporation Xerox, who is paying Richard Thoman $800,000 per year for life despite him manipulating revenue and earnings which ultimately plunged the stock when the SEC found out, and having a father who worked for Michael Dingman- one of the first of the true creeps who played his personal monopoly game to the detriment of thousands of employees in multiple businesses- and who fired my dad a month before he was to receive his pension after 30 years as an executive, I don't trust CEO's at all. I can see your point and why you distrust CEOs, and I hate this happened to your dad. I've not had that happen or seen it happen, although I have ridden a couple companies to the ground through the mismanagement of CEOs and the boards that push them. I personally had a CEO confide in me his trouble with having to do layoffs and the personal toll it took on him. He ultimately resisted and the board removed him. 5 years later and he's never regained another CEO position but instead decided to work at lesser positions to avoid the mental stresses. All I know is that I don't think I'd want a position like that for any amount of money, but I'd also have a hard time making the hard choices like layoffs or firings too, so maybe I wouldn't be a good fit to begin with.
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Post by swurveman on Mar 7, 2020 12:10:34 GMT -6
Having worked for the multinational corporation Xerox, who is paying Richard Thoman $800,000 per year for life despite him manipulating revenue and earnings which ultimately plunged the stock when the SEC found out, and having a father who worked for Michael Dingman- one of the first of the true creeps who played his personal monopoly game to the detriment of thousands of employees in multiple businesses- and who fired my dad a month before he was to receive his pension after 30 years as an executive, I don't trust CEO's at all. I can see your point and why you distrust CEOs, and I hate this happened to your dad. I've not had that happen or seen it happen, although I have ridden a couple companies to the ground through the mismanagement of CEOs and the boards that push them. I personally had a CEO confide in me his trouble with having to do layoffs and the personal toll it took on him. He ultimately resisted and the board removed him. 5 years later and he's never regained another CEO position but instead decided to work at lesser positions to avoid the mental stresses. All I know is that I don't think I'd want a position like that for any amount of money, but I'd also have a hard time making the hard choices like layoffs or firings too, so maybe I wouldn't be a good fit to begin with. I hear you. I wouldn't want that burden either.
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 7, 2020 12:17:53 GMT -6
Do you really believe that most liberals (like myself) want to destroy the prosperous because we're envious of the rich? And that our desire for equal rights and equal opportunity is only a thin veil of smugness? Most liberals simply feel that the working man/corporate relationship is out of balance and needs adjusting. I don't want to live in Venezuela any more than you want to work for Enron. There are many Democrats that frequent RGO--great folks that you have much in common with. I'm not asking you to stop being a conservative, just suggesting that you have a little more nuanced and accurate view of what your liberal friends stand for. As for eBay, I still dabble and occasionally find things I want there. But with multiple fees and shipping costs I honestly don't know how any eBay store makes much money. And every time someone says "I work harder for 40k a year than that CEO does for his 4M a year!" That's envy, and unfortunately, I see and hear it all the time, surprisingly more from white middle class folks than anybody else. I appreciated your thoughtful reply and back story. And while my life hasn't led me to the same conclusions at least a conversation can be had that isn't just talking points going back and forth. Honestly I rarely hear Democrats whining about that they work harder than CEOs, or that they want everything for free--I guess we run in different circles. As a liberal Democrat my main concerns right now are climate change and affordable health care for everyone. Yes, economic inequality is an issue that needs to be solved, but it's all moot if we don't get global warming in check. I'm sorry that in some ways the government didn't come through for you when you needed it--I get it. My story is different. My Dad bought his first home via the GI bill after WWII. As a self employed musician for the past 1/2 dozen years Obamacare has saved my butt. And my brother has been disabled since birth and collects a modest SSI check that keeps our family from going bankrupt. Government isn't perfect, but I'm grateful for what "we the People" do for each other.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 7, 2020 21:37:50 GMT -6
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story. If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersNo, it's truth. Those a-holes spend far mor time on the golf course or yachting than they do even PRETENDING to work.
And do you really believe that no matter HOW hard you work you'll ever reach even the lowest tiers of thr super-rich?
If you really believe that i have an assortment of really great bridges to sell you, and a lot of prime development land in (the Everglades of ) Florida.
OTOH, if you (and others) were really so gullible as to fall for the scams I just proposed, I might make it, not that I would ever be so crooked as to actually engage in such criminality.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 7, 2020 21:38:42 GMT -6
If you look at the facts objectively, multinational corporations and wealthy individuals are using tax havens to avoid paying taxes. Just one example: Paradise PapersWhat's objective? Everyone uses tax breaks to lower their tax burdens. I have yet to meet a person who doesn't at least take the standard deductions. Companies have to do it in order to keep net revenues high enough to keep their employees employed. I don't see the reason is bad for one and not the other. NO. Not everybody is a crook.
There is a HUGE difference between legal deductions and scamming the government, employing illegal tax shelters, and engaging in habitual money laundering. Although the crimianals in power attempt to equate the two.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 7, 2020 21:58:24 GMT -6
Do you really believe that most liberals (like myself) want to destroy the prosperous because we're envious of the rich? And that our desire for equal rights and equal opportunity is only a thin veil of smugness? Most liberals simply feel that the working man/corporate relationship is out of balance and needs adjusting. I don't want to live in Venezuela any more than you want to work for Enron. There are many Democrats that frequent RGO--great folks that you have much in common with. I'm not asking you to stop being a conservative, just suggesting that you have a little more nuanced and accurate view of what your liberal friends stand for. As for eBay, I still dabble and occasionally find things I want there. But with multiple fees and shipping costs I honestly don't know how any eBay store makes much money. And every time someone says "I work harder for 40k a year than that CEO does for his 4M a year!" That's envy, and unfortunately, I see and hear it all the time, surprisingly more from white middle class folks than anybody else. Yea, right.... (not really). What about the well known multi-billionare who has stated that he pays less in taxes than his office seceretary? Which is pretty much the norm for those creeps, except most don't have the balls to admit it....?
FWIW I was sent off to boarding school (scholarship kid) with a bunch of the children of the privileged class. Last names like Friendly (of the CBS Friendlys), Wexler (not sure of the spelling), etc, etc. Privileged, entitled creeps every one.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2020 23:14:23 GMT -6
For the mega rich the current tax loopholes are like that time when you bid on an item in Ebay, knowing you will have to fork out a couple hundred.. but you are the only bidder and the auction finishes at $0.99. Feels kinda guilty, but...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 2:11:19 GMT -6
must be around election time.. think i'll head back to the music.
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