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Post by M57 on Jan 6, 2020 20:11:07 GMT -6
Give me a Taylor with some new strings and I’m squeeking all over. Taylor? ..with new strings??
... please kill me now.
Hah, it's a Taylor ..but the strings are at least six months old. They're practically shedding.
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Post by saltyjames on Jan 6, 2020 20:28:43 GMT -6
Not surprised. When the average person listens to two mics. One, an expensive high quality mic designed for vocal tracking: old u87, Flea, R44, Bock, 67, SM7, RE20 etc
And
Another, a mass produced mic designed to take money from the unaware. 90% of people will pick the cheap mic. Why? Because it will sound much brighter and clearer sounding. If you are selling mics you might, ya just might!, know this. Now excuse me while I put my flame suit on.. IMNSHO Taylors are these cheap mics.
Sorry, but I've just had terrible experiences spending hours trying to get smooth and even sounds out of over bright guitars with new strings. It has just left me a little scarred inside.
When I was a young child I loved Trans-Ams and all Pontiacs. Now I cross the street when I see either. ... Although seeing a girl in one still lights a small fire in my dumb ass young country hick heart.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 6, 2020 20:31:18 GMT -6
Listen to the track I posted from M57. I assume from the file name it was mic'd over his shoulder and that's not direct, but you hear the squeak very loudly. It's distracting as loud as it gets, especially if it's not buried in a full mix. I have never tried to remove squeak before, but I would with that track. It sounds better without it. I NEVER ( and would never) use the "over the shoulder" technique - or any other unneccessarily complicated (or silly "bright new idea") technique for recording acoustic guitar.
"Over the shoulder" MIGHT (or might not) reflect what the PLAYER hears, but it damn sure is not what the listener hears in the room.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 6, 2020 20:33:36 GMT -6
Not surprised. When the average person listens to two mics. One, an expensive high quality mic designed for vocal tracking: old u87, Flea, R44, Bock, 67, SM7, RE20 etc
And
Another, a mass produced mic designed to take money from the unaware. 90% of people will pick the cheap mic. Why? Because it will sound much brighter and clearer sounding. If you are selling mics you might, ya just might!, know this. Now excuse me while I put my flame suit on.. IMNSHO Taylors are these cheap mics.
Sorry, but I've just had terrible experiences spending hours trying to get smooth and even sounds out of over bright guitars with new strings. It has just left me a little scarred inside.
When I was a young child I loved Trans-Ams and all Pontiacs. Now I cross the street when I see either. ... Although seeing a girl in one still lights a small fire in my dumb ass young country hick heart. NOT "clearer". Not even close. Most people with uneducated ears will interpret obnoxiously hyped treble as being "clearer" or "more detailed". That's the #1 sign of ignorance.
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Post by saltyjames on Jan 6, 2020 20:34:02 GMT -6
I like over the shoulder, John. It lets me get the 3 to 1 rule working (to keep phase at a minimum) and it gives some extra bass and a sense of movement that I always like - i.e. It has never pissed me off.
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Post by saltyjames on Jan 6, 2020 20:43:52 GMT -6
NOT "clearer". Not even close. Most people with uneducated ears will interpret obnoxiously hyped treble as being "clearer" or "more detailed". That's the #1 sign of ignorance. See? John agrees! I mean, I'm interpreting it that way as only 80% of his statement is correcting what I originally said. haha! Hi John!
No, but seriously, John, you are right. The #1 sign of ignorance is that everyone is not hip the the subtle nuances of the art of microphonic reproduction. Ever the delicate one! Hugs and Kisses, Johnny!
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 6, 2020 21:01:18 GMT -6
NOT "clearer". Not even close. Most people with uneducated ears will interpret obnoxiously hyped treble as being "clearer" or "more detailed". That's the #1 sign of ignorance. See? John agrees! I mean, I'm interpreting it that way as only 80% of his statement is correcting what I originally said. haha! Hi John!
No, but seriously, John, you are right. The #1 sign of ignorance is that everyone is not hip the the subtle nuances of the art of microphonic reproduction. Ever the delicate one! Hugs and Kisses, Johnny!
And the same to you, my friend!
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Post by donr on Jan 6, 2020 23:17:34 GMT -6
This thread is funny. I haven't recorded a ton of acoustic guitar as an artist, mostly electric. But the times I have, I never gave one thought to string squeak and whether it impacted a track. If there were squeaks, well that was the sound of the instrument.
I remember when console automation came in the 80's, the first thing a mix engineer did was program track mutes on all the overdub tracks to reduce tape and channel hiss buildup. Records sounded better for it, yes. Now, comping vocals and bouncing background tracks, removing all the extraneous audio around the singer and instruments. Comping myself, I'll remove most of the breaths and after grunts, but not all of them. Sometimes it's part of the music to hear that breath intake before a phrase. I read an interview with Bruce Swedien saying he left Michael Jackson's vocal mic on between phrases because his dancing around while singing was part of song's sound.
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Post by christopher on Jan 6, 2020 23:19:16 GMT -6
When I worked at a guitar shop I learned I was always buying strings that I hate. There are so many blends and they are all super bright and extra squeaky, the idea being they are brighter and last longer. I want to say the owner always installed same strings since the 70s.. d’addarrio phosphor bronze? 12s I think.. whatever “medium” means. The old boring blend that doesn’t last as long, but they are way less squeaky and less metallic. I always get them confused with 80/20 and accidentally grab those which are usually too bright, phosphor bronze is the standard acoustic sound iirc, and go dead fast - which can help on a bright guitar.
There are also coated strings with nylon, Elixir etc.. those are pretty neat and not as squeaky, fun to play.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 6, 2020 23:43:37 GMT -6
This thread is funny. I haven't recorded a ton of acoustic guitar as an artist, mostly electric. But the times I have, I never gave one thought to string squeak and whether it impacted a track. If there were squeaks, well that was the sound of the instrument. I remember when console automation came in the 80's, the first thing a mix engineer did was program track mutes on all the overdub tracks to reduce tape and channel hiss buildup. Records sounded better for it, yes. Now, comping vocals and bouncing background tracks, removing all the extraneous audio around the singer and instruments. Comping myself, I'll remove most of the breaths and after grunts, but not all of them. Sometimes it's part of the music to hear that breath intake before a phrase. I read an interview with Bruce Swedien saying he left Michael Jackson's vocal mic on between phrases because his dancing around while singing was part of song's sound. I attribute it to the same tech-induced mindset that has aome people using stuff like autotune and beat quantizing de rigeur, with no regard for musicality, because everything needs to be "perfect", all the time.
Everything needs to be a perfect, flawless plastic "model" of the real thing.
Brave new world.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2020 0:02:30 GMT -6
I like over the shoulder, John. It lets me get the 3 to 1 rule working (to keep phase at a minimum) and it gives some extra bass and a sense of movement that I always like - i.e. It has never pissed me off. If it works for you, by all means, do it! There are no rules, only methods and philosophies.
Concerning the 3 to 1 rule, I generally DON'T use more than one mic on an acoustic guitar - UNLESS it's a solo guitar recording (with or without vocal) in which case I'd tend to add stereo spaced room mics. Because people expect "stereoishness" these days, even if a lot of them are listening in mono to one side of the recording and don't seem to notice.
Or in the event I'm doing something intentionally wacky.
But since I'm generally using ONE mic (at a distance of a couple or three feet) there's no 3 to 1 rule involved.
If it's going to be something like a stereo guitar track it gets tracked twice.
The mic is important. My current (available) choices are a KM84 and a C12A brass capsule. I have lots of other mics of various sorts but for acoustic guitar it comes down for one of those two over 90% of the time.
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Post by donr on Jan 7, 2020 0:08:57 GMT -6
Maybe there's an opportunity for a string company to make a line of acoustic strings called "Extra Squeakys."
I'm happy with D'Addario's coated strings, they feel like regular strings and don't corrode.
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Post by sirthought on Jan 7, 2020 2:14:53 GMT -6
This thread is funny. I haven't recorded a ton of acoustic guitar as an artist, mostly electric. But the times I have, I never gave one thought to string squeak and whether it impacted a track. If there were squeaks, well that was the sound of the instrument. I remember when console automation came in the 80's, the first thing a mix engineer did was program track mutes on all the overdub tracks to reduce tape and channel hiss buildup. Records sounded better for it, yes. Now, comping vocals and bouncing background tracks, removing all the extraneous audio around the singer and instruments. Comping myself, I'll remove most of the breaths and after grunts, but not all of them. Sometimes it's part of the music to hear that breath intake before a phrase. I read an interview with Bruce Swedien saying he left Michael Jackson's vocal mic on between phrases because his dancing around while singing was part of song's sound. If you read the OP, though, he's not saying he's always trying to get rid of it. He just has one song where it's a problem, and asks how might someone correct that. And if you listen to the file I made available, the squeak is bad and distracting. I've never corrected for it myself, but I would with that track. Thankfully someone suggested Rx7, I have that, and low and behold it made it super easy to never know it happened in the first place. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to ask for advice on fixing an already recorded track, and instead he's getting a dozen different philosophies on the merits of leaving it there or removing, how someone should or shouldn't perform it, the awful guitars, strings, or mic'ing someone may or may not have used...and really everything but helpful advice on correcting something he deems an issue that might be fixable in the mix. We all know you want to avoid distracting things that aren't part of your performance. We all know that leaving some unintended material can add character to recordings. This question wasn't about either of those things.
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Post by M57 on Jan 7, 2020 8:08:06 GMT -6
Hi, OP here.. I don't mind that the thread went beyond my original question. These days I consider myself a songwriter first, then a musician and amateur engineer, so I'm always interested what you pros think and do about these things. Honestly, I kind of like having some squeaks in the recording. It makes it sound real to me, and I so much as suggested that when I said that I might prefer it if sirthought had left some squeak in the tracks. That particular track is a mostly solo intro to the song. Subsequent tracks are buried a bit more in the mix and the squeaks need much less in the way of mitigation. But as an exercise it was pretty cool to see that they could be entirely removed. BTW, I love the sound of my Taylor. I picked it out of a room full of Martins. Yes it is bright, but I particularly like the definition of the bass notes of most Taylors over those of Martins. Martins are thumpy to me by comparison. Now, I'm willing to acknowledge that maybe the Taylor isn't the best choice in a close micing situation precisely because it is brighter. I'm pretty sure the strings were Elixer Bronze because I instinctively knew I needed to tame the brightness. Next time I record it, I'll probably try not micing as closely, and maybe I'll use a different set of mics. That said, I do like the sound and stereo image of the over-the-shoulder technique in a guitar-driven song. I usually blend and gently pan them, with nowhere near hard panning.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 7, 2020 10:17:29 GMT -6
That particular squeak was awkward and distracting. Typically they don't bother me. I've actually developed a playing technique to minimize squeaks when absolutely necessary. That RX7 track was amazing. I can see that being highly valuable in certain situations. Wish that plug was sold as a single plug-in.
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Post by M57 on Jan 7, 2020 10:33:39 GMT -6
That particular squeak was awkward and distracting. A perfect case study for evaluating the RX-7. Now I'm embarrassed just enough that I'm going to go back and re-record it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 7, 2020 10:37:20 GMT -6
I see Taylor's as analogous to Bosendorfer, which is a great piano, but harder and brighter than a Steinway. Attachments:
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 7, 2020 15:16:54 GMT -6
Something that can not be stressed enough is choice of microphone."modern" voiced mics with a hyped presence region are almost purpose designed to exaggerate string squeak and exacerbate the problem. In a way, string squeak can be regarded in the same class of problems as sibilance, which also causes problems in "modern" voiced mics.
If you're micing from a reasonable distance (say, 2 feet, give or take) and you're still getting bad squeak problems you should seriously consider swapping out the mic. Or investing in a better one.
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Post by M57 on Jan 9, 2020 20:47:33 GMT -6
That particular squeak was awkward and distracting. A perfect case study for evaluating the RX-7. Now I'm embarrassed just enough that I'm going to go back and re-record it. So tonight I came home from work and decided to try and re-record the the track. Turns out it was pretty easy to play the damn thing without squeaking. Good thing because the statute or limitations of ran out on the RX-7 sale and I passed on buying it. I'm posting the tune to relieve my embarrassment. It's still a work in progress; I'll get a real percussionist and maybe a good fretless player (my playing is OK at best), but the bones are there. https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/were-all-in-this-togetherCertainly, all crits and suggestions are welcome.
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