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Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2020 10:17:55 GMT -6
No send/return from ANY kind of DAW that I'm aware can entirely eliminate intersample latency. Whether or not that becomes a big deal is obviously up to the individual. But yes, I love how Logic pings the system and automatically sets the compensation for you. It's good.
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Post by drbill on May 16, 2020 11:18:37 GMT -6
No send/return from ANY kind of DAW that I'm aware can entirely eliminate intersample latency. Whether or not that becomes a big deal is obviously up to the individual. But yes, I love how Logic pings the system and automatically sets the compensation for you. It's good. Yes, you're correct. It's physics. How can you make smaller slices of something that's already the smallest slice? Maybe someday we'll be sampling in mega trillions of samples, and the inter-sample thing will be moot, but at this point, if you want to do parallel processing, it's best to do it in the analog world before coming back in. Now....some people may not notice it, or the round trip may land close enough to the beginning / end of a sample as too make it a non-issue, but it IS "a thing". Not sure what this has to do with the BBD-320, but I WANT ONE!!!
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Post by thirdeye on May 16, 2020 11:43:10 GMT -6
I wish the KT BBD320 was only one rack space!
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Post by rob61 on May 16, 2020 11:51:44 GMT -6
Several years ago Brian Horvitz recreated the Roland Dimension D using original bucket brigade parts he was able to source in a 500 series format which he called TBDD. He made a limited number of them (due to the scarcity of original parts). It is a very good recreation, but unfortunately is no longer available. He also made an exact circuit recreation of the original 550a API EQs. They sound incredible with Jeff's new CA-0252 opamps. Attachments:
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Post by mrholmes on May 17, 2020 11:08:53 GMT -6
No send/return from ANY kind of DAW that I'm aware can entirely eliminate intersample latency. Whether or not that becomes a big deal is obviously up to the individual. But yes, I love how Logic pings the system and automatically sets the compensation for you. It's good.
I don't hear any latency using the io plugin not on a CH-Strip nor on an auxtrack. I double-checked this with looping back a drum hit, minus the round trip latency.
The term inter-sample means between two samples? I doubt that I can hear this.
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Post by drbill on May 17, 2020 11:26:35 GMT -6
No send/return from ANY kind of DAW that I'm aware can entirely eliminate intersample latency. Whether or not that becomes a big deal is obviously up to the individual. But yes, I love how Logic pings the system and automatically sets the compensation for you. It's good.
The term inter-sample means between two samples? I doubt that I can hear this.
yes. Trust me, you can. You can't hear the timing differences, but you can almost certainly hear the phase differences.
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Post by mrholmes on May 17, 2020 12:50:36 GMT -6
The term inter-sample means between two samples? I doubt that I can hear this.
yes. Trust me, you can. You can't hear the timing differences, but you can almost certainly hear the phase differences.
Ok is this a big deal or do we had bigger deals in the good old analog days?
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Post by Blackdawg on May 17, 2020 13:42:47 GMT -6
Several years ago Brian Horvitz recreated the Roland Dimension D using original bucket brigade parts he was able to source in a 500 series format which he called TBDD. He made a limited number of them (due to the scarcity of original parts). It is a very good recreation, but unfortunately is no longer available. He also made an exact circuit recreation of the original 550a API EQs. They sound incredible with Jeff's new CA-0252 opamps. Damn that's cool. All the more reason that the KT version is stupid to be in such a large enclosure. Could probably fit 3-4 of them in that chassis.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 14:10:16 GMT -6
I love the Soundtoys Microshift. I wonder if this would be enough of an improvement to bother.
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Post by drbill on May 17, 2020 15:25:27 GMT -6
yes. Trust me, you can. You can't hear the timing differences, but you can almost certainly hear the phase differences.
Ok is this a big deal or do we had bigger deals in the good old analog days?
There are challenges and solutions in every era of audio engineering.
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Post by forgotteng on Jun 19, 2020 21:34:30 GMT -6
Sorry, I ordered this on the spot soon as I saw it. Had no idea it was out until tonight. 199$ vintage king. I used the Uad plug all the time.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 19, 2020 21:42:35 GMT -6
Sorry, I ordered this on the spot soon as I saw it. Had no idea it was out until tonight. 199$ vintage king. I used the Uad plug all the time. Let us know what you think!
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Post by drbill on Jun 19, 2020 21:44:24 GMT -6
Sorry, I ordered this on the spot soon as I saw it. Had no idea it was out until tonight. 199$ vintage king. I used the Uad plug all the time. $150 at Thomann and they say 1-2 weeks out. But I've been keeping my eye on it, and the actual "in stock" day seems to change and get later as soon as the arrival gets close....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 20, 2020 20:18:37 GMT -6
Sorry, I ordered this on the spot soon as I saw it. Had no idea it was out until tonight. 199$ vintage king. I used the Uad plug all the time. $150 at Thomann and they say 1-2 weeks out. But I've been keeping my eye on it, and the actual "in stock" day seems to change and get later as soon as the arrival gets close.... Oh that’s life with Uli! You have to understand every major retailer has software that calculates that date based on 3 factors: history of the SKU, history of the manufacturer and what the manufacturer says will be the delivery date. You have a SKU that has yet to ship, and a manufacturer that has a history of delivery dates that are all over the place and promises that mean nothing. So you have 2 choices put money down wait for a pleasant surprise in the mail. The alternative is wait and hope the first run won’t sell out. With Music Group the first option is probably best, I remember way to many times when those who waited to place orders found themselves waiting even longer.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 20, 2020 21:56:02 GMT -6
ragan, you try the Valhalla UberMod?
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Post by ragan on Jun 20, 2020 22:01:39 GMT -6
ragan , you try the Valhalla UberMod? No, I actually haven't ever checked that out. Is it modulation like this? I should demo.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 21, 2020 7:22:01 GMT -6
@dr Bill, I think you have answered one of my little logic mysteries: slight flanging. I use the I/o plug in all the time on auxs, that I send to ob. I often then hear slight flanging in say cymbals, that isn’t there is the actual track. I actually often like a little flanging, maybe a lingering effect of windowpane , but never understood what was causing it, probably inter-sample issues ?
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Post by drbill on Jun 21, 2020 11:04:31 GMT -6
@dr Bill, I think you have answered one of my little logic mysteries: slight flanging. I use the I/o plug in all the time on auxs, that I send to ob. I often then hear slight flanging in say cymbals, that isn’t there is the actual track. I actually often like a little flanging, maybe a lingering effect of windowpane , but never understood what was causing it, probably inter-sample issues ? Yes. I've mentioned it several times around here. People either "get it" or they don't. But it's real, and it's there, and it's why many of us either need to parallel process ITB or completely OTB (that's why I dig gear with mix/blend/etc. on it), but not 1/2-1/2 - aka ITB dry signal combined back in the DAW with OTB processed gear. There is an absolute set amount of time that it takes to get OTB, thru your gear and back ITB. If that time is EXACTLY on the sample, then awesome, you're one of the lucky ones. If it falls between samples, there is no way your DAW can correct for that as it's smallest common denominator is of course ONE sample. Simple math. That "in the crack" delay time is what I (and many of us) refer to as inter-sample latency. The time that physically exists between samples. The higher the sample rate of your session, the smaller the cracks, and the more likely that your round trip will be close to falling on an exact sample. This is one positive of higher sample rate sessions if you want to parallel process the same signal ITB and OTB back in the DAW. But with PCM sampling and Digital technology there ARE cracks. And the perception is phasiness, flanginging (as you have noted) and lack of punch for LF tones. It is not timing errors. I don't know anyone who can "hear" the timing differences in 1 sample or less. It should be noted that not all sounds exhibit the same. Some you can barely tell, some make you want to barf. Again, depends on the transients, your monitoring, your session sample rate and where in the round trip your system (DAW, AD/DA, processing, etc.) falls. For those still scratching there heads....to test the effect of this is easy. Go to a session, duplicate a track ITB, and move the duplicate 1 sample forward or backward. Bring up both tracks to unity and listen. It's coarser than the intersample latency, but it will show you what the whole deal is about. A one sample offset on two identical tracks is usually pretty obvious. kcatthedog - glad you found your gremlin. Use the knowledge to good creative usage!
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Post by forgotteng on Jun 22, 2020 17:05:24 GMT -6
@dr Bill, I think you have answered one of my little logic mysteries: slight flanging. I use the I/o plug in all the time on auxs, that I send to ob. I often then hear slight flanging in say cymbals, that isn’t there is the actual track. I actually often like a little flanging, maybe a lingering effect of windowpane , but never understood what was causing it, probably inter-sample issues ? Yes. I've mentioned it several times around here. People either "get it" or they don't. But it's real, and it's there, and it's why many of us either need to parallel process ITB or completely OTB (that's why I dig gear with mix/blend/etc. on it), but not 1/2-1/2 - aka ITB dry signal combined back in the DAW with OTB processed gear. There is an absolute set amount of time that it takes to get OTB, thru your gear and back ITB. If that time is EXACTLY on the sample, then awesome, you're one of the lucky ones. If it falls between samples, there is no way your DAW can correct for that as it's smallest common denominator is of course ONE sample. Simple math. That "in the crack" delay time is what I (and many of us) refer to as inter-sample latency. The time that physically exists between samples. The higher the sample rate of your session, the smaller the cracks, and the more likely that your round trip will be close to falling on an exact sample. This is one positive of higher sample rate sessions if you want to parallel process the same signal ITB and OTB back in the DAW. But with PCM sampling and Digital technology there ARE cracks. And the perception is phasiness, flanginging (as you have noted) and lack of punch for LF tones. It is not timing errors. I don't know anyone who can "hear" the timing differences in 1 sample or less. It should be noted that not all sounds exhibit the same. Some you can barely tell, some make you want to barf. Again, depends on the transients, your monitoring, your session sample rate and where in the round trip your system (DAW, AD/DA, processing, etc.) falls. For those still scratching there heads....to test the effect of this is easy. Go to a session, duplicate a track ITB, and move the duplicate 1 sample forward or backward. Bring up both tracks to unity and listen. It's coarser than the intersample latency, but it will show you what the whole deal is about. A one sample offset on two identical tracks is usually pretty obvious. kcatthedog - glad you found your gremlin. Use the knowledge to good creative usage! Yea this struggle is real. That’s why I moved away from protools native. Studio One has their pipeline plugin which does a better job of managing this but it’s not perfect.
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Post by forgotteng on Jun 22, 2020 17:07:21 GMT -6
Well I was just informed today by my guys at Vintage King that these units are coming out of the factory in Wuhan. So.......... we all know I’m not getting this anytime soon.
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Post by drbill on Jun 22, 2020 17:14:48 GMT -6
these units are coming out of the factory in Wuhan. Hmmmm...new meaning for the term "Dimension D"?? And what does the "D" stand for? Destruction, Death,
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 22, 2020 21:35:42 GMT -6
Comes with a free bat.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 23, 2020 6:23:24 GMT -6
[K]lark, that's the gift that keeps on giving the whole year...
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Post by ericn on Jun 23, 2020 7:54:19 GMT -6
I thought it was just Bat shit crazy pricing!
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Post by ericn on Jun 23, 2020 7:55:17 GMT -6
these units are coming out of the factory in Wuhan. Hmmmm...new meaning for the term "Dimension D"?? And what does the "D" stand for? Destruction, Death, Shipping delays, delivery in another dimension.
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