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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 20, 2019 11:53:55 GMT -6
Any of the tunes on my website in my signature...... cheers Wiz Hi Wiz! OK. Had a chance to listen to a few of your tunes on Spotify. First - you're a great songwriter and distinctive vocalist, and that is the most important thing. After that, pretty much anything can work. I had an initial impression the other day when listening to Trouble and Strife. But I wanted to compare it to your past stuff to make sure it wasn't just a random feeling. Listening to Nero and the Joker, Circle of Light, There Must Be More and a couple of other tunes confirmed it for me. What I am feeling in Trouble is something that I fight pretty much every day of my life. It's an ongoing battle in a digital world, DAWS, samples, and the like. I wish I could quantify it and wrap it up all neat and tidy and have a simple definition with a finite solution, but alas, it's a moving target, and it's not easy to pin down. Even more so, tons of people can't hear what naggingly drives me crazy at times. So...that said..... I think Trouble definitely feels 2D against the above mentioned songs. I could instantly tell that the drums are digital, and don't have a blanket of "air" surrounding them. I understand that this is your first run out of the gate with new gear, and that the song plays into it as well, and that maybe it's not perfectly mixed just yet. But all that said, it doesn't hold up to your previous recordings. I'm sure you will get closer and closer, but I'm not sure you'll ever be able to capture what your real gear and microphones captured. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's how it comes off to me. That's not to say it's bad and sucks - it's just that it doesn't have the life and vibrancy and the "air" surrounding it that your other recordings do. What I'm talking about will not be "heard" by many, and I admit it's just a few percentage points off, but it matters - almost compulsively - to me in my productions. Enough so that I earn less, and work harder to finish music. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. Like I said, I fight it at every juncture every day, because doing what I do requires samples, sometimes loops, synths, samplers, midi, etc.. And fight it I do....with a passion. Which is why I'm probably more sensitive about it than the average listener. I come from a time where musicians all got in the same room to make music - together. There is something magical about that. And I find that every time I put up a mic instead of using a "better sounding" sample, some of that humanity and life comes back into the music. And that's a PitA. It slows me down, it makes me work harder, it pushes me musically - cause I don't really play guitars or drums or bass. But when I make the effort - I'm almost always rewarded. Upon solo-ing a track in my compositions, the sample almost always sounds "better" to the untrained ear. But the humanity and organic performance of a real mic-d instrument almost always comes through. It may often sound "worse" or "less perfect" in isolation, but in the mix it brings back the organic / human feel that I am after. If you were doing dubstep, my observation would be 100% different, but you're not.... And your music calls out for that humanity and organic feel that microphones in a room bring. That's my take on it. Take it or leave it. I'd keep the real instruments until you have longer to live with the digital stuff. Cheers, bp PS - listening in the studio - not on my laptop - on Grace D/A, and JBL 708P's. Trouble is WAV, and the others are Spotify compressed audio so.....I don't think it's the audio files that I'm reacting to. Im in the boat as well. That said, I also agree that with time and learning the tool more you would probably be able to resolve that. Just takes some tweaks and maybe some outboard tricks or something. |
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Post by ragan on Dec 20, 2019 12:06:24 GMT -6
wiz One thing you'll find about the stock SD3 library is a lack of good close ambience mics. They recorded them in this frigging cavernous studio (totally stupid in my view) so the room mics are all comically large sounding. With every other library I've used there are good/interesting closer ambient mics. You know, the way a working, human engineer would track a kit. Just like in "real life", if all you have is close mics and then a hilarious cavern, it's hard to create that "air" that I think Bill was mentioning. In UK Pop or the Muscle Shoals one (70s Soul?) or Indiependent or I think any of the others, there are mics where you'd want them for more 'kit picture' vibe. Also playing with the bleed of each instrument in each mic is critical (which I know you hadn't figured out how to do when you did this track). It's tempting to be like "man, this is great, I can get all that annoying tom ring [or whatever] totally out of my kick mics" but I always tread carefully with that. It's the flaws of mic'ing real drums (and the mix tricks we employ to get around them) that make drum mixes that our ears are used to hearing. SD3 is profoundly powerful and you can get about any drum sound you've ever heard out of it. Just takes some practice. I'm pumped to hear where you take your setup in your music.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 20, 2019 13:08:14 GMT -6
Just a thought have you ever bounced a stereo submix no fx to Ua ocean way , to play with placement and mix that in ?
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 20, 2019 14:20:53 GMT -6
Working myself since Logic Drummer only with V Drums. Could be many things but its not mixed, hard to say if it sounds much different compared to your older work. I am surprised how many round ribbon samples Logic Drummer uses on the snare. One hit is not exactly the same as the next and it turns out good for simple drumming parts.
Even if it would sound different does it break your song?
IMO not a single second.
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Post by drbill on Dec 20, 2019 14:21:26 GMT -6
I'm excited to hear the digital drums sound as good as a well mic'd kit. <thumbsup> I just haven't heard it yet. I think because the developers strive so much for perfection, that it never sounds "right" to me.
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Post by ragan on Dec 20, 2019 14:25:27 GMT -6
I'm excited to hear the digital drums sound as good as a well mic'd kit. <thumbsup> I just haven't heard it yet. I think because the developers strive so much for perfection, that it never sounds "right" to me. The audio is nothing more than the recorded drums. That room, that gear, that engineer, that player. It's just a matter of translation of performance, which is no small challenge, but it's totally doable. I'd wager you have heard this approach sound "as good as a well mic'd kit" you just didn't know it.  |
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Post by drbill on Dec 20, 2019 14:33:03 GMT -6
I'm excited to hear the digital drums sound as good as a well mic'd kit. <thumbsup> I just haven't heard it yet. I think because the developers strive so much for perfection, that it never sounds "right" to me. The audio is nothing more than the recorded drums. That room, that gear, that engineer, that player. It's just a matter of translation of performance, which is no small challenge, but it's totally doable. I'd wager you have heard this approach sound "as good as a well mic'd kit" you just didn't know it. You may be right. But I use lots of processed digitally recorded samples / sounds that originated with REAL instruments, in a REAL room, with REAL engineers, and REAL players. (I mean, unless they are obviously electronic or synths, they all start off that way right?). My take is that using those "REAL" pre-recorded sounds doesn't sound as "real" as doing it live yourself. I know you can probably null me into submission, but I hear it. More than that, I emotionally FEEL it. My perspective, and I deal / fight with this 60+ hours a week. For perspective, right now I'm doing an EDM / Dance synth project - and its SOOOO relaxing, cause I get to use robotic, devoid of any humanistic sounds. Perfect, cause I can NAIL that sound with my computer generated stuff. The human, organic, rootsy stuff....not so easily. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:00:30 GMT -6
I’ll make a contextual comment, and ask you, was it fun and did it engage you to be musical, engineer and produce ? For a number of months, you have been describing revisiting a great deal of your previous set up and process, so you were looking for change, improvement: something different ? So, the question is expanded with do you feel like you found what you were looking for, it seems it ? Interesting question, and a pertinent one. Perhaps the most important one..... was it fun and engaging. Well, yes it was. Now some of that is cause its new, shiny.... and new and shiny always wins, at least at first. But, also I have a lot of experience with midi, samples and e drums. (going back to building my own e drum kit, and using bob clear mountain samples loading one 1M floppy at a time into a Akai S1100 sampler... 8).......) The world of e drums and software is vastly improved and far less frustrating than it was. Also, remember this is the first tune I have done like this and I am using a preset. cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:01:46 GMT -6
Hey wiz , I really enjoyed your voice and the song overall. Your voice actually reminds me a bit of the only Australian "roots" performer I've really paid attention to, Archie Roach. I think the strategy with the drums is fine. The sound probably needs mixing a bit and you'll get the hang of the software. But the overall idea is modern technology working for you well. People always say they want mic'd drums—and I certainly think that is a great thing to do—but then most of the educational mixing videos the engineer is always doing sample replacement and making hybrid sounds with lots of plugins. In the end, I don't see how different this will be, especially if you are able to play parts when you want. Thanks very much for listening and commenting, appreciate it. Archie Roach is cool. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:03:08 GMT -6
I have completely gone away from Superior Drummer and only use real drums now. SD sounds too good, too clinical, too polished compared to real drums, especially those recorded in a (my) less that ideal environment. And that would be my only complaint with this song. As Blackdawg said, the drums sound a bit robotic. That said, I love Wiz' voice and songs, just beautiful, as usual... And - whatever works for you is good! Thanks Levon I go one way, you are going the other..... LOL... Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:04:08 GMT -6
Has anybody tried a hybrid setup of using the superior drums but then Micing up cymbals at the same time? Cymbal articulation is one thing that always leaves me scratching my head with superior and the like. Same with ghost notes on the snare but lots of folks don’t even play that inside sort of stuff. Wiz, I just realized your voice is a total doppelgänger for Ed Roland of Collective Soul. I did some tunes with them last year and in his softer range your voices are dead on the same damn thing. Sounds great man. Hey Jeremy I have done the cymbals and drums...and its a very good way of working. I will have to check out Collective Soul..... thanks for listening bud. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by ragan on Dec 20, 2019 15:04:33 GMT -6
The audio is nothing more than the recorded drums. That room, that gear, that engineer, that player. It's just a matter of translation of performance, which is no small challenge, but it's totally doable. I'd wager you have heard this approach sound "as good as a well mic'd kit" you just didn't know it. You may be right. But I use lots of processed digitally recorded samples / sounds that originated with REAL instruments, in a REAL room, with REAL engineers, and REAL players. (I mean, unless they are obviously electronic or synths, they all start off that way right?). My take is that using those "REAL" pre-recorded sounds doesn't sound as "real" as doing it live yourself. I know you can probably null me into submission, but I hear it. More than that, I emotionally FEEL it. My perspective, and I deal / fight with this 60+ hours a week. For perspective, right now I'm doing an EDM / Dance synth project - and its SOOOO relaxing, cause I get to use robotic, devoid of any humanistic sounds. Perfect, cause I can NAIL that sound with my computer generated stuff. The human, organic, rootsy stuff....not so easily. Fair enough. I think what you're saying about hearing/feeling sample based stuff is true with most things, I've just been convinced by using V-Drums/SD3 the last couple of years that this is one exception to that rule. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:04:50 GMT -6
Since, in these days “ real drums” means edited till death, a bunch of replacements anyway I don’t here much difference in using a drum machine. If it allows you to work more comfortable go for it! Besides I think at this point what most would consider the most unrealistic e drum tones are considered classic at this point. Hey waffle bro... good to see you back Cheers Wiz |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 20, 2019 15:08:55 GMT -6
Since, in these days “ real drums” means edited till death, Maybe for most people.... |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:08:56 GMT -6
Any of the tunes on my website in my signature...... cheers Wiz Hi Wiz! OK. Had a chance to listen to a few of your tunes on Spotify. First - you're a great songwriter and distinctive vocalist, and that is the most important thing. After that, pretty much anything can work. I had an initial impression the other day when listening to Trouble and Strife. But I wanted to compare it to your past stuff to make sure it wasn't just a random feeling. Listening to Nero and the Joker, Circle of Light, There Must Be More and a couple of other tunes confirmed it for me. What I am feeling in Trouble is something that I fight pretty much every day of my life. It's an ongoing battle in a digital world, DAWS, samples, and the like. I wish I could quantify it and wrap it up all neat and tidy and have a simple definition with a finite solution, but alas, it's a moving target, and it's not easy to pin down. Even more so, tons of people can't hear what naggingly drives me crazy at times. So...that said..... I think Trouble definitely feels 2D against the above mentioned songs. I could instantly tell that the drums are digital, and don't have a blanket of "air" surrounding them. I understand that this is your first run out of the gate with new gear, and that the song plays into it as well, and that maybe it's not perfectly mixed just yet. But all that said, it doesn't hold up to your previous recordings. I'm sure you will get closer and closer, but I'm not sure you'll ever be able to capture what your real gear and microphones captured. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's how it comes off to me. That's not to say it's bad and sucks - it's just that it doesn't have the life and vibrancy and the "air" surrounding it that your other recordings do. What I'm talking about will not be "heard" by many, and I admit it's just a few percentage points off, but it matters - almost compulsively - to me in my productions. Enough so that I earn less, and work harder to finish music. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. Like I said, I fight it at every juncture every day, because doing what I do requires samples, sometimes loops, synths, samplers, midi, etc.. And fight it I do....with a passion. Which is why I'm probably more sensitive about it than the average listener. I come from a time where musicians all got in the same room to make music - together. There is something magical about that. And I find that every time I put up a mic instead of using a "better sounding" sample, some of that humanity and life comes back into the music. And that's a PitA. It slows me down, it makes me work harder, it pushes me musically - cause I don't really play guitars or drums or bass. But when I make the effort - I'm almost always rewarded. Upon solo-ing a track in my compositions, the sample almost always sounds "better" to the untrained ear. But the humanity and organic performance of a real mic-d instrument almost always comes through. It may often sound "worse" or "less perfect" in isolation, but in the mix it brings back the organic / human feel that I am after. If you were doing dubstep, my observation would be 100% different, but you're not.... And your music calls out for that humanity and organic feel that microphones in a room bring. That's my take on it. Take it or leave it. I'd keep the real instruments until you have longer to live with the digital stuff. Cheers, bp PS - listening in the studio - not on my laptop - on Grace D/A, and JBL 708P's. Trouble is WAV, and the others are Spotify compressed audio so.....I don't think it's the audio files that I'm reacting to. Hi Bill firstly thanks so much for taking the time to listen, and provide great insight! I know exactly what you mean.... EXACTLY! I hear it too. I also think that something at play for me, is my studio and the air and space in it. Things tie in together in this finite way you are referring to. I think I will get better relatively quickly with SD3, will I get to the point that you and I are referring to when we say we hear/feel ...... I dunno. In the end, I think for the 7 people who listen to my music and plonk down cash for it... it won't matter.... LOL.... The bigger thing for me, is the process and if I can enjoy this more .... it will stay. If not, cest la vie.... I buy another drum kit and go back... thanks again mate Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:10:12 GMT -6
Love it wiz . I bet that the bleed control that ragan is mentioning will bring some added realness and depth. I'd probably add a bit of ambience to the drums too, but I bet that once you go through the steps of actually mixing, it would be great. I bet it'll be a huge workflow improvement for getting the drums and bass where you want them performance wise too and allow you to spend more time working on the vocals and guitars that you're more passionate about. Great stuff, as always. Hey man no doubt, I will get better results... it is a stock preset after all. I am hoping you are right about the workflow improvement thats what is the major push Cheers Wiz PS, nobody cares about the MODO bass..... 8) |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:12:06 GMT -6
wiz One thing you'll find about the stock SD3 library is a lack of good close ambience mics. They recorded them in this frigging cavernous studio (totally stupid in my view) so the room mics are all comically large sounding. With every other library I've used there are good/interesting closer ambient mics. You know, the way a working, human engineer would track a kit. Just like in "real life", if all you have is close mics and then a hilarious cavern, it's hard to create that "air" that I think Bill was mentioning. In UK Pop or the Muscle Shoals one (70s Soul?) or Indiependent or I think any of the others, there are mics where you'd want them for more 'kit picture' vibe. Also playing with the bleed of each instrument in each mic is critical (which I know you hadn't figured out how to do when you did this track). It's tempting to be like "man, this is great, I can get all that annoying tom ring [or whatever] totally out of my kick mics" but I always tread carefully with that. It's the flaws of mic'ing real drums (and the mix tricks we employ to get around them) that make drum mixes that our ears are used to hearing. SD3 is profoundly powerful and you can get about any drum sound you've ever heard out of it. Just takes some practice. I'm pumped to hear where you take your setup in your music. I havent downloaded any of those humungous extra files, just what came with the standard download. I figured I probably wouldnt use them. I definitely will get better once I dive in under the hood. The best thing is I can change it really really easily and quickly. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:12:53 GMT -6
Just a thought have you ever bounced a stereo submix no fx to Ua ocean way , to play with placement and mix that in ? I am doing that here, but with Bricasti... SD3 is just a stereo track with a send to the M7 Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:13:50 GMT -6
Working myself since Logic Drummer only with V Drums. Could be many things but its not mixed, hard to say if it sounds much different compared to your older work. I am surprised how many round ribbon samples Logic Drummer uses on the snare. One hit is not exactly the same as the next and it turns out good for simple drumming parts. Even if it would sound different does it break your song? IMO not a single second. Hey bud thanks for checking it out. I agree, it won't break the song. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 20, 2019 15:17:43 GMT -6
Me like!
Me Like a lot!
I hear nothing wrong with the drums, either,except maybe that last flourish....
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 15:36:57 GMT -6
Me like!
Me Like a lot!
I hear nothing wrong with the drums, either,except maybe that last flourish....
Hi John thanks bud for listening and commenting....in fact I just was listening and thought, man that last fill blows.... LOL.... Luckily, I can change it... Cheers Wiz |
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 20, 2019 15:48:43 GMT -6
Was implying something a little different as ocean way allows you to position the mike’s in the ambiant space? If you can defeat the ambiance in sd3 and send dry tracks to ocean way, then you could experiment with mike distance from source by the two different rooms etc. ?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011 
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Post by ericn on Dec 20, 2019 16:09:13 GMT -6
Since, in these days “ real drums” means edited till death, Maybe for most people.... Yeah my friend I forget you are not most people! |
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Post by drbill on Dec 20, 2019 16:22:28 GMT -6
An additional note for Wiz - sometimes something as simple as adding a real tambourine on backbeats, or a shaker on 1/4 notes is enough to resuscitate lifeless drums. (Not that yours are lifeless, but I think you get the idea.). Any human non-quantized by computer hands interaction with the song helps - and can often disguise what - without it - is obvious.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 20, 2019 16:46:43 GMT -6
The snare drum sounds weird. I would choose a different set of samples or turn down the bottom mic or something, it doesn't sound right. Sounds gated, or something, and weirdly snare-y.
Overheads need to come way up. Cymbals are getting lost in the mix. Toms and kick seem to sound fine.
I would try some sort of ugly compressor on the drum bus like a neve diode style compressor, and some tape emulation. Need to get some ugly dirt and glue on that sound. To get it less mechanical sounding.
happy holiday season and thanks for posting
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