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Post by mrholmes on Oct 23, 2019 3:28:58 GMT -6
Maybe its because I am getting old, or I am just too much into my own taste?
Every time I get an offer to work for some commercial stuff, and they show me what they need / want it's the same game. In my mind it all sounds the same for example ballads start slow with keys than boom larger than life with big fat low end etc. back to Piano and LV only and that goes on and on ... AB AB ending...
The singers always sing super perfect no wrong note no nothing that lets me feel a human is doing something.
And this uber perfect singing makes them sound all the same to my ears lifeless....
All the mixes do sound polished to death, no room left for something real.
That's not enough the publisher gives the songs all to the same mastering house, and they give it the rest. If they don't kill the dynamics they over saturate the mix with some kind of exciter thing... In the end it does not sound like a song someone did because he loves what he is doing.
Listening to wiz for example moves something inside me.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 23, 2019 8:37:45 GMT -6
There does seem to be a sameness to alot of current mixes. I agree about the over-polished recordings. I think it's the slightly "off" things that build the tension in music, and isn't that a key element in any great song? Perfect has become the standard, yet perfect certainly isn't perfect. Once all the humanness is removed the songs become less compelling and are emotionally flat. Pop mixes are guilty of it, but I hear an awful lot of that from current country as well.
I think I would like to get involved in a project where everyone played at the same time and whatever came out is what gets pressed. I've never worked that way but it might be really refreshing.
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Post by svart on Oct 23, 2019 8:44:08 GMT -6
That's ok. I don't typically like songs and mixes that don't sound "polished to death". What I've found is that a lot of the time people work the song and the mix to the end of their skills and then use the excuse "don't want it to sound too polished" as their reasoning to stop going further.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 23, 2019 9:44:17 GMT -6
I find that what I often don't like about modern music is the song itself, not so much the production. I'm actually in awe of many (but not all) over polished productions. That shit is truly hard to pull off. I get what you're saying about the "sameness" of stuff though. And yeah, not everything needs to be "perfect". Or maybe another way of saying it is that "perfect" is relative, and varies from song to song, genre to genre. etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 10:35:27 GMT -6
I see what the OP is saying. When turning on the radio some songs these day to me have the audio equivalent to being overly 'Airbrushed'. Just gone too far for my own human taste, but it's a skill - just what the doctor ordered for some.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 11:26:16 GMT -6
Just depends on whether you want your hamburger, rare, well done, or pre-chewed.
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Post by svart on Oct 23, 2019 12:06:06 GMT -6
Remember the "if it's too loud, you're too old"? Seems the "it's too polished" and "it's too compressed" is just following the cyclical nature of loving music the way you grew up with it and hating music the way the next generation loves it.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 23, 2019 13:33:51 GMT -6
What I've found is that a lot of the time people work the song and the mix to the end of their skills and then use the excuse "don't want it to sound too polished" as their reasoning to stop going further. I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 13:50:14 GMT -6
Remember the "if it's too loud, you're too old"? Seems the "it's too polished" and "it's too compressed" is just following the cyclical nature of loving music the way you grew up with it and hating music the way the next generation loves it. I bet you don't listen to classical music, or jazz, or live recorded music. I bet you don't use microphone techniques that PRECLUDE the use of heavy modern processing.
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Post by svart on Oct 23, 2019 14:24:56 GMT -6
Remember the "if it's too loud, you're too old"? Seems the "it's too polished" and "it's too compressed" is just following the cyclical nature of loving music the way you grew up with it and hating music the way the next generation loves it. I bet you don't listen to classical music, or jazz, or live recorded music. I bet you don't use microphone techniques that PRECLUDE the use of heavy modern processing. About half of my collection is various classical pieces. I use the same mic techniques as everyone else. Heavy modern processing is a stylistic choice, so why would I want to preclude it?
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Post by svart on Oct 23, 2019 14:32:22 GMT -6
What I've found is that a lot of the time people work the song and the mix to the end of their skills and then use the excuse "don't want it to sound too polished" as their reasoning to stop going further. I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made. I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. And so on. And most of the time when I do tell them what I think, the replies are very similar. "I read on this forum/heard on this youtube video that you shouldn't boost/cut/compress more than xxxx amount." Or "I heard/read that you should always get the tone at the source and never use samples/EQ." and so on. And then the next worse thing is when people mix each instrument in solo and then wonder why the total mix is a muddy mess and everything is fighting.. They can't believe how much filtering goes on to get things to sound "natural" in a dense mix.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 14:58:10 GMT -6
I bet you don't listen to classical music, or jazz, or live recorded music. I bet you don't use microphone techniques that PRECLUDE the use of heavy modern processing. About half of my collection is various classical pieces. I use the same mic techniques as everyone else. Heavy modern processing is a stylistic choice, so why would I want to preclude it? You use heavy modern processing on classical pieces, using those mic techniques? You use a lot of ambient mics with tons of live bleed and compress all of it?
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Post by Chad on Oct 23, 2019 15:00:09 GMT -6
This conversation reminds me of U2. I read it over and over again in interviews... When they formed in the 70's, they worked hard at their arrangements having what they called an "improvised sound".
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 15:00:58 GMT -6
I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made. I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. You can also replace compression with automation.....
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 15:01:24 GMT -6
This conversation reminds me of U2. I read it over and over again in interviews... When they formed in the 70's, they worked hard at their arrangements having what they called an "improvised sound". The Black Sabbath trick!
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 23, 2019 15:22:36 GMT -6
I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made. I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. And so on. And most of the time when I do tell them what I think, the replies are very similar. "I read on this forum/heard on this youtube video that you shouldn't boost/cut/compress more than xxxx amount." Or "I heard/read that you should always get the tone at the source and never use samples/EQ." and so on. And then the next worse thing is when people mix each instrument in solo and then wonder why the total mix is a muddy mess and everything is fighting.. They can't believe how much filtering goes on to get things to sound "natural" in a dense mix. Its all valid but my point was taste, aesthetics modern vs. old. And we can't argue about taste I was just interested if others have the same feeling. For example if someone would polish a Clapton record that way I would ask myself if he or she lost their mind. My point I do not like that sound to my ears it sounds overproduced too much of a good thing.
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Post by mcirish on Oct 23, 2019 15:22:56 GMT -6
That's ok. I don't typically like songs and mixes that don't sound "polished to death". What I've found is that a lot of the time people work the song and the mix to the end of their skills and then use the excuse "don't want it to sound too polished" as their reasoning to stop going further. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am definitely for making the mix as good as it can be. I put way too many hours into mixes myself. What I'm talking about is excessive use of tempo grids and auto-tuning. I don't mind fixing some not good enough pitches. That is part of making a mix that is listenable. What I'm talking about here is drastic over-use of those techniques. Once a drum part is straightened out to fit on a grid perfectly, it loses it's groove. I think the same can be said for vocals. A lot of passion in a vocal performance comes from pitch bending and knowing when slightly flat or sharp actually improves the performance. In the end, I think music is an emotional experience and I want to have the music I work on the have the greatest impact it can. Get rid of distracting issue but keep a human feel. oooh, I just reread my post and I sound a little preachy. Sorry.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 23, 2019 15:23:54 GMT -6
Just depends on whether you want your hamburger, rare, well done, or pre-chewed. LOL
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 23, 2019 15:24:08 GMT -6
About half of my collection is various classical pieces. I use the same mic techniques as everyone else. Heavy modern processing is a stylistic choice, so why would I want to preclude it? You use heavy modern processing on classical pieces, using those mic techniques? You use a lot of ambient mics with tons of live bleed and compress all of it? Ummm...I'm pretty sure svart is saying that he owns many classical pieces of music...you know, in reference to your comment, "I bet you don't listen to classical".
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 15:37:50 GMT -6
You use heavy modern processing on classical pieces, using those mic techniques? You use a lot of ambient mics with tons of live bleed and compress all of it? Ummm...I'm pretty sure svart is saying that he owns many classical pieces of music...you know, in reference to your comment, "I bet you don't listen to classical". Ummm.....read that in the context of what he said, as a blanket statement. I don't see how if he believes what he's saying that he can listen to classical music with dynamics.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 23, 2019 15:48:22 GMT -6
Ummm...I'm pretty sure svart is saying that he owns many classical pieces of music...you know, in reference to your comment, "I bet you don't listen to classical". Ummm.....read that in the context of what he said, as a blanket statement. I don't see how if he believes what he's saying that he can listen to classical music with dynamics. I did read it context, of the whole thread, thanks. We obviously came to different interpretations, so be it. Really though, a guy says he likes to use modern production techniques and that somehow means he can't like classical music? ok...
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 16:23:27 GMT -6
Ummm.....read that in the context of what he said, as a blanket statement. I don't see how if he believes what he's saying that he can listen to classical music with dynamics. I did read it context, of the whole thread, thanks. We obviously came to different interpretations, so be it. Really though, a guy says he likes to use modern production techniques and that somehow means he can't like classical music? ok... I guess you skipped the "it's too compressed" comment. I suppose you forget all the other threads in which he's trotted out a similar set of opinions, usually including 'if it's not loud, I don't like it'.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 23, 2019 16:28:21 GMT -6
I did read it context, of the whole thread, thanks. We obviously came to different interpretations, so be it. Really though, a guy says he likes to use modern production techniques and that somehow means he can't like classical music? ok... I guess you skipped the "it's too compressed" comment. I suppose you forget all the other threads in which he's trotted out a similar set of opinions, usually including 'if it's not loud, I don't like it'. No, I didn't...but whatever, not important.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 23, 2019 16:31:41 GMT -6
More on compression: I use less of it than I ever have, 25 years in. Mostly, it's just because my techniques and mics have gotten that much better. It's also quite genre specific, how much might be used. The principle types of music I record have changed over that time.
Polish: there's always some polish, if there's no budget there's always some that doesn't get done....or a lot. If you're working in a vacuum on your own time, sure, go as far as you like. It's more likely in a vacuum that taste or perspective damage a production more than polish.
I have to question not liking a song because the amount of polish does not meet one's standards.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:06:15 GMT -6
Maybe its because I am getting old, or I am just too much into my own taste?
Every time I get an offer to work for some commercial stuff, and they show me what they need / want it's the same game. In my mind it all sounds the same for example ballads start slow with keys than boom larger than life with big fat low end etc. back to Piano and LV only and that goes on and on ... AB AB ending...
The singers always sing super perfect no wrong note no nothing that lets me feel a human is doing something.
And this uber perfect singing makes them sound all the same to my ears lifeless....
All the mixes do sound polished to death, no room left for something real.
That's not enough the publisher gives the songs all to the same mastering house, and they give it the rest. If they don't kill the dynamics they over saturate the mix with some kind of exciter thing... In the end it does not sound like a song someone did because he loves what he is doing.
Listening to wiz for example moves something inside me.
Watch out, my friend. You're beginning to sound like me!
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