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Post by teejay on Sept 7, 2019 12:42:01 GMT -6
**If this is not the right thread for this, please let me know and I can delete/re-post**
I'm getting ready to record a new project, which will be my vocals with tracks. My biggest struggle is understanding how my vocals should be eq'd to leverage my unique characteristics. I listen to reference tracks and hear what I like in other recordings of singers who I believe are similar to me, but I'm never sure if trying to achieve the same sonics on my own voice is the right approach. I don't seem to be able to do that, and often wonder if the areas I'm trying to dip and eliminate are the very ones others would keep/emphasize.
That being said, I know there's a lot of talent here. Wondering if it would be worth purchasing an hour of someones time to have them eq my vocal on one song, and then provide me with the settings used so I have a template to work from going forward. The objectivity and expertise in this forum is what I don't have, and understanding how my voice should be best eq'd would be invaluable in helping me move forward in the project. I know different people may have slightly different approaches/opinions, and that it may vary based upon song, so I'm just looking for a fundamental starting point.
Is this a reasonable ask/approach?
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 7, 2019 13:17:23 GMT -6
Correct me if you disagree, but settings can change from variables as simple as the day and what you ate before coming in. The instrument, in this case, is a living organism. Often times, I try to avoid punching singers on a different day because I often need to process a separate track for the new vocal to match.
When you consider larger variables like the key of the song, your register, the density of the arrangement, the timbre of the accompanying instruments, etc., it might be wrong to assume that an EQ setting can be prescribed for all situations.
It might be possible for somebody to help you identify things like where the mud lives in your room, where your “character tones” live, which tones come forward when you shout, etc. but ultimately I think you’d want to be doing the work yourself on a “per case” basis.
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Post by viciousbliss on Sept 7, 2019 13:58:40 GMT -6
There’s a lot besides just simple eq’ing I suppose. First thing is to make sure the eq isn’t cramping. Either by running the session at 88/96 or using some plugin that gets around the 44/48 limitations. But that doesn’t mean other plugins that effect frequencies won’t cramp. My workflow is based on a lot of trial and error. Male or lead vocal presets on Museq, Dangerous Bax, and BX SSL E usually work pretty well on male vocalists of all sorts. Often I use them on the same track one after another. Or I’ll just use the BX.
Reverbs and other FX seemingly can add notes because they pitch shift. Modulate. Then you’ve got analog plugins that add distortion and harmonics that also effect frequencies.
The best thing to do is try a bunch of stuff and learn what you like. There’s probably someone here or elsewhere that uses something like Pro-Q or Equilibrium to do all this freehand eq drawing with different filters and all that. Sometimes I do that, but I mainly use hardware emulations. The freehand stuff is more advanced than working with limited controls on an analog eq.
One I like a lot is Vertigo VSE-2. Completely unique design that is supposed to boost the exact frequencies and not have the side effects of other stuff.
There’s a lot everyone can tell you to buy and it’s tough to say what a good bang for the buck arsenal would be. Relab and BX subscriptions? I forget if the Eventide sub is cheap. Also depends what cpu processor you have. The sub is good if you just wanna try a lot of stuff out indefinitely. If you decide it’s not for you, you can quit after 2-3 months and not be out a ton of money.
You might be able to snag a BX SSL E off a buy and sell forum cheap since a lot of people are ditching their owned plugins to pay for years of subscribing. There’s a new Lexicon 480 plugin coming out. I forget the name, but it’s a new line by some famous guy who was doing a live Metal mix for Sonicscoop I think it was. Maybe it’ll be cheaper than Relab to own.
Sometimes Eventide plugins are $25-$49 on sale. Waves has a lot of sales. CLAEffects does great stuff for vocals. I started using their new L1 lately and like it better than the Oxford Limiter at times. If you have Pro Tools, I’d see if you can hunt down a used Cranesong Phoenix. New ones are always $450. Maybe that UK place still sells it for $300. I got lucky and picked it up for $149 during a brief Sweetwater sale.
The classic Autotune 5 mode in the new Autotunes does something special aside from pitch correcting. It’s less natural but more musical than the very natural autotune 8 mode. Helps the voice sit in the mix more.
For now, maybe let everyone know what you have and see what tips pop up.
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Post by wiz on Sept 7, 2019 14:11:44 GMT -6
Send me a stem of your music and a stem of your vocal and I will do it for free.
Assuming you like what I do of course....
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by M57 on Sept 8, 2019 4:36:37 GMT -6
Having someone like Wiz do it remotely, and then explaining what he did might help ..and certainly won't hurt, but what if the issues are deeper or more complex as in viciousbliss's post? Personally, I have benefitted the most by having an engineer over to my studio to help on a session. Having a dedicated set of ears on you for recording can be huge. After all, you can't turn knobs or move mics while you're playing guitar or piano - or even singing for that matter. And on the mix end you get to sit in the client's chair, where you can give and receive instant feedback and really zero in on the issues. The best part is that it's all done on your equipment with your setup.
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Post by teejay on Sept 8, 2019 9:07:09 GMT -6
Thanks to everyone for the great points, feedback, and suggestions. Thanks to Wiz as well for the gracious offer. Much to think about and consider.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 8, 2019 9:09:27 GMT -6
**If this is not the right thread for this, please let me know and I can delete/re-post** I'm getting ready to record a new project, which will be my vocals with tracks. My biggest struggle is understanding how my vocals should be eq'd to leverage my unique characteristics. I listen to reference tracks and hear what I like in other recordings of singers who I believe are similar to me, but I'm never sure if trying to achieve the same sonics on my own voice is the right approach. I don't seem to be able to do that, and often wonder if the areas I'm trying to dip and eliminate are the very ones others would keep/emphasize. That being said, I know there's a lot of talent here. Wondering if it would be worth purchasing an hour of someones time to have them eq my vocal on one song, and then provide me with the settings used so I have a template to work from going forward. The objectivity and expertise in this forum is what I don't have, and understanding how my voice should be best eq'd would be invaluable in helping me move forward in the project. I know different people may have slightly different approaches/opinions, and that it may vary based upon song, so I'm just looking for a fundamental starting point. Is this a reasonable ask/approach? Don’t forget to find the most flattering mic for your voice that you can get your hands on. The goal is minimal EQ, if possible. Listen in particular to how the mic handles esses on your voice. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 8, 2019 10:13:57 GMT -6
Todd, you really should post an example of your voice. It would help us to get an idea of what might work specifically for you. As for EQ, the mic chosen will largely determine what kind of EQ is needed if any. The better mics need very little. The Chandler REDD is a great example of a mic that just sits itself in a track.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 8, 2019 12:34:39 GMT -6
Is this a reasonable ask/approach? Don’t forget to find the most flattering mic for your voice that you can get your hands on. The goal is minimal EQ, if possible. Listen in particular to how the mic handles esses on your voice. ^THIS^
You can't EQ one mic to sound like another and you definitely can't use EQ to "correct" the sound of a crappy or unsuitable mic.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 8, 2019 13:08:50 GMT -6
Mic choice is a huge factor, maybe even the biggest concern of them all, but I believe @toddj has some very nice mics on hand by now.
I do so much on a vocal in the mix, I'm not sure if EQ is a specific enough thing to single out, as others have said. It is one of many elements.
Getting the right compressor or multiple compressors is a big deal for me. I have sort of settled on RVox and MJUC as a one-two punch for my standard vocal sound. Very inexpensive also.
A good de-esser has become critical to my workflow. I use Waves Sibilance right now but I would use FabFilter Pro-DS just the same if I owned a license.
My "secret weapon" for getting vocals to cut through a dense mix is the auto-smart-thingy in Izotope Nectar Elements. I really like the two EQ sliders it comes up with, in very small amounts, to clean things up and get a little high mid / treble boost. I'm sure the full version of Nectar would give even more control.
I end up using the freehand digital EQs a lot for EQ as needed for the specific track or mix on hand. This part is somewhat straightforward. Just EQ like any other track, basically. Cut mud, weird resonances. Broad or medium mid presence or air presence boosts if needed. High pass filtering as needed.
Reverb/delay/eventide whatever as needed, varies too much to be specific about.
I'm sure there are a million ways to skin this cat but don't be surprised if you end up with a somewhat long "vocal chain" by the time you're comfortable.
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 8, 2019 14:18:54 GMT -6
There is a lot of good advice here already, but I thought I’d drop my own thoughts into the mix, as I do a lot of recording myself and others to prerecorded tracks. First you need to choose the most flattering signal chain for your voice that aligns with the vibe you’re going for; microphone, preamp, compressor (if you do that on the way in). You’ll find that after playing with EQ that you start to understand where your voice needs help, if and when it does. There are tracks I’ve released with barely any EQ, maybe just a low end rolloff. There are others where I’m boosting a few dB on the top with a pultec plugin and cutting some muddy mids out. It’s all about how busy the mix is and what you need to do to make the voice cut through it without sounding like it doesn’t belong with the premade track. Subtle EQ and subtle compression do a lot. Personally I try to EQ as little as possible, just enough to make it work for the track.
Sending your stuff to someone like Wiz or another engineer of your choosing who can either show you what they do or tell you what they did after providing a finished EQed track is a good idea.
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Post by drbill on Sept 8, 2019 14:23:07 GMT -6
Having someone like Wiz do it remotely, and then explaining what he did might help ..and certainly won't hurt, but what if the issues are deeper or more complex as in viciousbliss's post? Personally, I have benefitted the most by having an engineer over to my studio to help on a session. Having a dedicated set of ears on you for recording can be huge. After all, you can't turn knobs or move mics while you're playing guitar or piano - or even singing for that matter. And on the mix end you get to sit in the client's chair, where you can give and receive instant feedback and really zero in on the issues. The best part is that it's all done on your equipment with your setup. ^^^ This. Plus they can tell you WHY they chose WHAT they chose and how they did it -- all while they are doing it. Priceless. That said, remote EQing is the next best thing. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 9, 2019 0:59:43 GMT -6
How's the new ADK 251 style microphone, been doing?
Chris
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Post by M57 on Sept 9, 2019 4:40:53 GMT -6
Having someone like Wiz do it remotely, and then explaining what he did might help ..and certainly won't hurt, but what if the issues are deeper or more complex as in viciousbliss's post? Personally, I have benefitted the most by having an engineer over to my studio to help on a session. Having a dedicated set of ears on you for recording can be huge. After all, you can't turn knobs or move mics while you're playing guitar or piano - or even singing for that matter. And on the mix end you get to sit in the client's chair, where you can give and receive instant feedback and really zero in on the issues. The best part is that it's all done on your equipment with your setup. ^^^ This. Plus they can tell you WHY they chose WHAT they chose and how they did it -- all while they are doing it. Priceless. That said, remote EQing is the next best thing. I think drbill is reminding us that what may work fine today may not work out so well tomorrow. Deep understanding of the process is ultimately much more valuable than just getting the results. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 9, 2019 5:45:16 GMT -6
Are you planning to use your ADK 251? What preamp where you looking to use? |
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Post by teejay on Sept 9, 2019 8:52:43 GMT -6
Thanks again to everyone for your feedback and great advice. I do recognize that there is a whole lot more involved than one or two eq moves to process correctly, and not a one-size-fits all set of moves. The biggest issue (I think) I have at the moment is an objective view of what are the plusses/minuses of my vocals, and what mic is actually flattering. I think I'm stuck in "analysis paralysis" because I just can't confidently analyze my own vocals. I seem to only hear the sonic issues I don't like, and when I try to eq those out the clarity and life disappears. Someone else may tell me those are the exact frequencies I should be leveraging.
Let me try to succinctly respond to a few questions/comments.
- (Some of you know) I've been trying to find the right mic for some time, the latest of which is the ADK Z-251. I also have: Vanguard V13, Luke Audio AL-Y56, Peluso 2247SE. Have considered selling those to try some higher-end mics like REDD, Upton 251, a 47 tube (Heiserman/Signal Art), or Horch RM2J (or some 49-ish style). No idea which of those may be flattering. Some of you may have seen I had planned a trip to VK in Nashville last month to demo different flavors, but due to some health issues that fell off the table.
- Vincent: Yes, was planning on using the ADK 251 but still not convinced it is "the one". Preamp-wise was targeting the RMS5A7 Tubule. Have the MA5 and P1 as well, but not sure if they are a fit. Also have a Kush Electra (500 series), DBX 560A (ZenPro modded), and an IGS OneLA compressor. Have experimented with all of those both during tracking and post.
- Chris: The ADK is still a work-in-progress. Not an automatic fix. And to answer Notneeson, there is still sibilance present with the ADK.
- Monkeyxx: I have invested in a number of Waves and one-off plugs (CLA, Gregg Wells, LA2A/1176/RVox, API eqs, etc.). No Izotope, however. Just downloaded the Harrison 32c demo yesterday to see if that would somehow provide more of a "console" sound. Typically use Reaper/plugins, but recently trying to route through my Spirit M4 board to see if more analog helps.
- Martin: I could do a quick shootout. Now that I've pulled out my Spirit board, I can do one take with the four mics.
Thanks again to everyone. I'm in a situation where my day job takes a significant amount of my time, so am trying to streamline my workflow by having the right baseline.
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 9, 2019 10:26:12 GMT -6
I would play around with a some mic positioning with the ADK. I owned a Peluso 2247 SE for a long time. I think it’s a great mic. It’s not a real U47 or in the same league as a FleA, but it’s a really nice mic that often killed my U87 on vocalists. I personally preferred the ADK on your voice best. As we’ve discussed this is all subjective. I like vocal chains with a little color.
I tend to prefer to hang mics upside, down, but it’s not necessary. Try raising the ADK up a little above your mouth and angling it down a bit. This will pick up a little more chest tone and less nasality/sibilance. You can also try simply backing off the mic 8-12 inches. As for preamps, again experiment. Feel free to post stuff here. We’ll all give our thoughts.... just don’t be surprised if we all respectfully disagree with each other. Lol.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 9, 2019 11:45:38 GMT -6
Well, sibilance may just be something you have to deal with. It happens. I find compression usually makes it worse so I like to de-ess with a plugin at the end of any analog or digital processing I might do at mix.
Vincent gives excellent advice above, a foot or more back is often enough to mitigate if you don't need an in your face vocal sound.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 9, 2019 15:21:49 GMT -6
Todd, I'd probably keep just two of the vocal microphones, you already have. (unless you're recording others) I suspect adding the AEA 44 and/or R84 would be an excellent fit for you. If it were possible to demo the Sontronics Sigma 2, you may also love that one too (like me). I'm not sure how easy that would be to demo though. Ooozes vintage too!  Chris |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 10, 2019 7:40:33 GMT -6
Todd, I don't think your voice needs EQ at all, just a better microphone match.
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Post by teejay on Sept 10, 2019 14:12:17 GMT -6
Todd, I don't think your voice needs EQ at all, just a better microphone match. Thanks, Martin. Appreciate the vote of confidence. That is certainly the goal, and would be phenomenal to achieve. Just a matter of how to find "the one", especially with all of the choices out there (and limited funds). Still considering going somewhere to demo a bunch of mics in one session, but that's easier said than done. Per your suggestion, I'm posting the link to snippets of a previous, finished project so anyone with interest on weighing in can do so. Mic used was a Studio Projects C1, interface was M-Audio Delta 10/10, preamp was a small Mackie board (and some of the tracks were coming from cassette!). All processing done ITB by a friend of mine. www.pastemagazine.com/noisetrade/music/toddjohnson/songs-of-christmasI'll track something on my ADK 251 and post (probably what I'll send to Wiz), but it will be a few days/weekend before I'll have time for that. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 10, 2019 14:23:52 GMT -6
My intuition FWIW is that you'll be keeping the ADK...
Chris
P.S. Maybe keep the ADK for heavier mixes. Ribbon for ballads.
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 10, 2019 15:35:19 GMT -6
What made you go with the 251 when you grabbed the ADK? Ever use a good 47, like a FleA?
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Post by teejay on Sept 10, 2019 16:59:04 GMT -6
What made you go with the 251 when you grabbed the ADK. Ever use a good 47, like a FleA? Loaded question. The only "47" experience I have to this point is my Peluso. Several individuals I've previously shared clips with (some of whom own/owned a Flea) steered me away from a 47 based upon my bit of harshness/focus in the 1-2.5k region. And no, I have never used a great 47, but the Flea was always on the radar. Regarding the 251 choice, that was the recommendation when I reached out to both a vendor and the manufacturer directly with clips. I was open to whatever was recommended, and both said the 251 was the way to go. Granted, I fully understand there are a lot of factors, including my room and what the clips were recorded on that surely influenced the recommendations. Others had told me Bock 251, or conversely something in the 49 vein like Horch. With the number of "251" suggestions/recommendations, I figured that was the right direction. The only other 251 experience is my Peluso 22 251, which is currently for sale. But I was hoping the crisp of that mic would not be reproduced in a better 251. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 10, 2019 18:53:31 GMT -6
What made you go with the 251 when you grabbed the ADK. Ever use a good 47, like a FleA? Loaded question. The only "47" experience I have to this point is my Peluso. Several individuals I've previously shared clips with (some of whom own/owned a Flea) steered me away from a 47 based upon my bit of harshness/focus in the 1-2.5k region. And no, I have never used a great 47, but the Flea was always on the radar. Regarding the 251 choice, that was the recommendation when I reached out to both a vendor and the manufacturer directly with clips. I was open to whatever was recommended, and both said the 251 was the way to go. Granted, I fully understand there are a lot of factors, including my room and what the clips were recorded on that surely influenced the recommendations. Others had told me Bock 251, or conversely something in the 49 vein like Horch. With the number of "251" suggestions/recommendations, I figured that was the right direction. The only other 251 experience is my Peluso 22 251, which is currently for sale. But I was hoping the crisp of that mic would not be reproduced in a better 251. F*ck the internet, you need to try some mics! 😀 |
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