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Post by Quint on Jul 14, 2019 1:01:20 GMT -6
My bias on all this, was greatly influenced by going to two of James Lugo's Recording Studio openings, in the L.A. area. (10 years ago, the last one) We compared his 16 Track 2", and the (then) "State of the Art"... On complete and partial recordings. No contest then, between the two! I realize the gap between that has narrowed to a close race. Again the Silver Bullet is an amazing contraption! Chris Not sure what conclusions you're making here?
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Post by chessparov on Jul 14, 2019 4:23:28 GMT -6
Sorry for my rambling post. Even though I think digital recording and plugins have come along way, in the last 10 years...
I still think some degree of a hybrid hardware/digital setup, does enhance things significantly. Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 14, 2019 8:38:42 GMT -6
How is printing through hardware vs. plug-ins even a debate at this point. You'd need tin ears not to hear the improvement a good preamp makes. I did a shootout online between the UAD 1073 and the Stam Audio SA73, and it was no contest. I do think many people who prefer plug-ins have grown up with those sounds, so their familiarity makes then choose plugs.
I know people who think Aunt Jemima is maple syrup, when it's actually corn syrup plus chemicals. Real maple syrup tastes a thousand times better, but they're used to that junk food condiment because they grew up with it, so now they prefer it.
For those who actually like that stuff, here's what you're ingesting: CORN SYRUP, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, WATER, CELLULOSE GUM, CARAMEL COLOR, SALT, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, SODIUM BENZOATE AND SORBIC ACID (PRESERVATIVES), SODIUM HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE. Yummy.
* my one possible exception is the UAD Helios plug-in. It has it's own sound, and I think it's a valid and musical choice you might make. if you like it, it's doubtful you can find a real Helios to compare to anyway.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2019 8:52:35 GMT -6
How is printing through hardware vs. plug-ins even a debate at this point. You'd need tin ears not to hear the improvement a good preamp makes. I did a shootout online between the UAD 1073 and the Stam Audio SA73, and it was no contest. I do think many people who prefer plug-ins have grown up with those sounds, so their familiarity makes then choose plugs. I know people who think Aunt Jemima is maple syrup, when it's actually corn syrup plus chemicals. Real maple syrup tastes a thousand times better, but they're used to that junk food condiment because they grew up with it, so now they prefer it. For those who actually like that stuff, here's what you're ingesting: CORN SYRUP, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, WATER, CELLULOSE GUM, CARAMEL COLOR, SALT, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, SODIUM BENZOATE AND SORBIC ACID (PRESERVATIVES), SODIUM HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE. Yummy. * my one possible exception is the UAD Helios plug-in. It has it's own sound, and I think it's a valid and musical choice you might make. if you like it, it's doubtful you can find a real Helios to compare to anyway. That’s a bit hyperbolic, Martin. Do Massenburg and Shoeps have tin ears?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 14, 2019 9:07:55 GMT -6
When it comes to guys like that, of course you're right John, but whenever I've compared using plug-in preamps, the hardware preamp was clearly better sounding. I have a few plug vs. hardware videos online, and in those instances, the difference is apparent, and I'd wonder about anyone's listening skills if they can't hear the improvement.
At this point, plug-ins are viable choices and many might be perfectly happy to choose them. I'm not there yet, but I can accept that it's a fair compromise sometimes. On voice-over/ podcast recordings, to save time, I've used the UAD Helios and found it to sound really good.
Now, one of my benchmark recordings is Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada". It was done with a black U67, C-24, and custom Massenberg preamps, EQ's and compressors, so clearly, Massenberg still believes in hardware, unless he's moved on since that was recorded.
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Post by Ward on Jul 14, 2019 9:40:09 GMT -6
Adding to my "MEH" post above...
The smear, the hum, the rattles, the string scrapes, the squeaks, the fitzes and the bacon frying . . . all parts of flawed but great records.
A lot of today's totally ITB pop records sounds perfect. Perfectly awful.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 14, 2019 10:41:46 GMT -6
If you are talking about tracking, the " big guys" still used Hardware. If you are talking about mixing.lot's of the " big guys" are now ITB with plugins.
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Post by drbill on Jul 14, 2019 10:44:21 GMT -6
The "big guys" can do whatever they want. I'll use my ears and make decisions accordingly.....
My hardware expenditures have gone up exponentially in the last few years as I've been able to afford it.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 14, 2019 11:08:58 GMT -6
The "big guys" can do whatever they want. I'll use my ears and make decisions accordingly..... My hardware expenditures have gone up exponentially in the last few years as I've been able to afford it. Nice. !!!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 14, 2019 12:24:10 GMT -6
I seriously doubt many recordings are tracked with plugs when well maintained vintage gear is sitting there. As for mixing, I am sure plugs probably play a much bigger part. I’m kind of getting off topic, so I’ll go back and read UBK post in full and then come back.
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Post by seawell on Jul 14, 2019 13:26:17 GMT -6
It’s an interesting approach and like stated earlier, his demos sound awesome! It reminds me of why I like the shadow hills preamps so much, having 3 color options at the flip of a switch is perfect even though obviously you can’t change it after the fact. My only concern would be leaving too much room to fiddle with plug in preamp options after tracking. It’s easy enough already to go down too many rabbit trails in the mix stage without preamp and mic option changes like the Slate VMS.
Having said all that, I’m getting to the point where it doesn’t bother me at all when someone else has found an approach that works for them that is seemingly in direct contrast to what I’m doing. Doesn’t mean either of us is wrong and that’s the great thing about music 👍🏻
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Post by notneeson on Jul 14, 2019 15:14:56 GMT -6
I seriously doubt many recordings are tracked with plugs when well maintained vintage gear is sitting there. As for mixing, I am sure plugs probably play a much bigger part. I’m kind of getting off topic, so I’ll go back and read UBK post in full and then come back. Money is down. Recalls are up. Well tracked stuff holds up better to ITB.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 14, 2019 16:27:19 GMT -6
Really interesting thread.
Gregory is great at talking and getting good sounds. Whether or not that translates into other peoples' gear and work flow every time I don't know. Certainly it helps in advertising a product and generating personal income.
I demoed the Kush Omega Preamp plugins and initially I thought they were "pretty cool," then I thought they were awful. They go too far, too quickly, in my uses.
The UAD stuff is pretty great. I don't really prefer the Slate sound. This is just another option in the same category. The category itself is fine.
I agree with all of the people that said front end is super important. It's something I'm not really willing to compromise on, and I spend a lot of effort and money to get it right.
After that, it can be digital all day long, makes no difference to me. Even if I'm using an in the box amp simulator, which is something I do more these days, the analog path in front of that is going to be something really good.
I guess the take away for me is that I'm excited about new possibilities, and ways of getting great sounds, but that never gets in the way of good old classic approaches that are proven to work every time.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2019 20:11:08 GMT -6
How is printing through hardware vs. plug-ins even a debate at this point. You'd need tin ears not to hear the improvement a good preamp makes. I did a shootout online between the UAD 1073 and the Stam Audio SA73, and it was no contest. I do think many people who prefer plug-ins have grown up with those sounds, so their familiarity makes then choose plugs. I know people who think Aunt Jemima is maple syrup, when it's actually corn syrup plus chemicals. Real maple syrup tastes a thousand times better, but they're used to that junk food condiment because they grew up with it, so now they prefer it. For those who actually like that stuff, here's what you're ingesting: CORN SYRUP, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, WATER, CELLULOSE GUM, CARAMEL COLOR, SALT, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, SODIUM BENZOATE AND SORBIC ACID (PRESERVATIVES), SODIUM HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE. Yummy. * my one possible exception is the UAD Helios plug-in. It has it's own sound, and I think it's a valid and musical choice you might make. if you like it, it's doubtful you can find a real Helios to compare to anyway. That’s a bit hyperbolic, Martin. Do Massenburg and Shoeps have tin ears? Massenberg is a great engineer who has done a lot of stuff that I utterly hate. The same can be said for Sheps (NOT Shoeps.)
Talk about cutting the balls off a production - yeah, those two are really good at it.
FWIW, I find all the "recent" RHCP stuff unlistenable. And I was a huge fan of the band, worked stage monitors for them a few times.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 14, 2019 20:14:42 GMT -6
Now I'll have to re-listen to some of Massenburg's work. Anything specific John E.? Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2019 20:17:40 GMT -6
Blah Blah Blah... I want someting blah blah blah . . . . MEH to the point of MIH Mind explaining what that's supposed to mean? I unmderstand "meh". Googling "MIH" reveals noithing that makes sense.
LOOSIE, you got some 'splainin' to do!
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2019 20:18:41 GMT -6
Now I'll have to re-listen to some of Massenburg's work. Anything specific John E.? Chris Anything by Steely (ugh) Dan.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 14, 2019 20:21:47 GMT -6
Well THAT should be easy to find! Thanks, Chris
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 14, 2019 20:56:36 GMT -6
I seriously doubt many recordings are tracked with plugs when well maintained vintage gear is sitting there. As for mixing, I am sure plugs probably play a much bigger part. I’m kind of getting off topic, so I’ll go back and read UBK post in full and then come back. Go hang in La for a bit. You’ll see lots of UAD Twins and a laptop sitting on top of consoles with a single mic plugged into them.
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Post by geoff738 on Jul 14, 2019 22:32:16 GMT -6
I seriously doubt many recordings are tracked with plugs when well maintained vintage gear is sitting there. As for mixing, I am sure plugs probably play a much bigger part. I’m kind of getting off topic, so I’ll go back and read UBK post in full and then come back. Go hang in La for a bit. You’ll see lots of UAD Twins and a laptop sitting on top of consoles with a single mic plugged into them. That’s depressing. Cheers, Geoff
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2019 23:30:15 GMT -6
That’s a bit hyperbolic, Martin. Do Massenburg and Shoeps have tin ears? Massenberg is a great engineer who has done a lot of stuff that I utterly hate. The same can be said for Sheps (NOT Shoeps.) Talk about cutting the balls off a production - yeah, those two are really good at it. FWIW, I find all the "recent" RHCP stuff unlistenable. And I was a huge fan of the band, worked stage monitors for them a few times.
Sometimes your opinions are bad.
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Post by Calvin on Jul 14, 2019 23:48:24 GMT -6
UBK has some terrific products, but I won't be interested in steering even farther away from the good ole days when the gear we recorded on helped conjure up the magic.
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Post by drbill on Jul 15, 2019 0:36:35 GMT -6
That’s a bit hyperbolic, Martin. Do Massenburg and Shoeps have tin ears? . The same can be said for Sheps (NOT Shoeps.). Actually, it's Scheps - not Sheps.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 15, 2019 1:21:45 GMT -6
At least it wasn't Schweppes! Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 15, 2019 1:43:54 GMT -6
The "big guys" can do whatever they want. I'll use my ears and make decisions accordingly..... My hardware expenditures have gone up exponentially in the last few years as I've been able to afford it. The best thing I learned from drbill is to trust the ears and the instinct. As a human with ADD it's difficult to follow my instinct. I made a few observations using plug ins, special those who try to recreate analog artifacts. A grain of salt works better. For example yessterday. I used Klanghelms SDRR in tube mode to get some top end sparkle in a String Quartet. Just 1% on the parallel knob did the trick to get some 3D impression. It worked and I did not, to use bills words, "second guessed"it. I think it's too easy to overuse plug ins. For the rest... I agree, most of the time it's hardware. Fur the UBK preamp I ask my self if Gregory may matched hardware and plug ins, that they work best together. I know that chains which where a combination of both domains sometimes do wonders.
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