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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 22, 2019 20:04:52 GMT -6
That would be very nice.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 22, 2019 20:32:21 GMT -6
Expect the KM84, to be the next big reissue IMHO. Chris That would be awesome.
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 22, 2019 20:38:08 GMT -6
A few thoughts? A U47 "clone" must have three components to be considered as such: a K47 (or perfectly working M7) capsule, BV8 transformer, and VF14m tube. If it doesn't have those, it ain't a 47. It also should be operating at the optimal 105 volts. Finally, the body and construction must be the same, coincidently the most obtainable aspect to replicate. Case in point. The WARM 47 uses a 12AX7, the same tube as an MXL and dozens of other cheap microphones. The only thing it has in common with a U47 is that it sorta resembles one - kinda - and it has a 47 in its name. You can easily design a cheap mic head amp circuit with a slight bump in the low mids and the 2k region. You might even convince some people that it sounds similar in terms of EQ tone. But the reason those classic mics have stood the test of time is their unparalleled resolution. Neumann had so much R&D money back when radio and recording were king. The small builders can't compete, and there is not a big enough market for the big manufacturers. If you want a great and affordable mic, don't look for a U47 "clone." Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! I 'almost' agree with you 100%. I guess I agree with you 99%. I agree that a 47 has to have a K47 or its predecessor, the M7. That it should have a BV8 transformer, and that it should operate on its original voltages if possible with a single rail PSU, passively dividing the 35v heater voltage from the 105v B+ voltage within the mic. It's arguable that the power related aspects aren't going to affect the sound; but it is part of the 47 chemistry, for sure, that this unregulated passive PSU is driving every electronic part of the microphone off of the same source, like a great balancing act. It's archaic, and unique. That latter part about power is actually why I picked the Western Electric 408a pentode 'dual tube' solution over some of the more common approaches out there because it was the only solution that allows that power supply spec to remain intact. It runs off of 105v and a heater voltage of about 35-37v, just like the original mic did. It also has the same plate resistance and gain factor roughly, when run in parallel, so it 'talks' to a BV8 quite well. I wanted to change as little as possible, even if it was for reasons I couldn't fully quantify. The thing about the VF14 I guess I disagree with. If they 'had' to have a VF14 then there would be no 47's in circulation today except a few lucky owners of working original units. Also some of the first U47's that came in for service after their tubes went bad, which were retrofitted to accept Nuvistor components weren't re-badged as something else. They were still 47's (although not exceptionally good sounding ones), and they are still considered U47's today... Even those with original tubes, truth be told, have tubes that are beyond their operational life expectancy and unless they were stored under some really unusual conditions are going to have a softer vacuum seal than originally built, and so dynamic range and THD are going to be different. So, I sort of view it as a problem to be solved; and you just have to look at it from a practical design viewpoint and see what is available and what the best way is to go about it. It gives folks a chance to be creative. As just an audio geek, I'm really fascinated by the different things that people have come up with. I think the most traditionalist approach of using another close-relative steel tube that FLEA, Wagner, and others have come up with are really admirable. Some of those options are literally no different from a VF14 other than their heater voltage requirements... I think the glass tube EF800 solution used by Wunder, Golden Age, Stam, Heiserman, and others is a really gorgeous sounding solution. Obviously I think the dual-tube solution first championed by Oliver Archut and Dany Bouchard and now me works pretty well. Most cool of all, I think, are the FET emulation modules that have been put forth by Saturn Sound, Grove Hill Audio, and Phaedrus Audio. I think those are going to ultimately be what we use in the end once all of the old tubes are beyond their operational life expectancy, and I think that technology will eventually be perfected if it is not in fact already. On the plus side too, that will allow you to match 47's quite well, and it also plays into my evil scheme to one day try to make a '47' that requires no power supply... I think that would be fantastic.. IF it can be made to sound just right, and I agree that's a big 'if'. The only solution out there that I'm honestly not a big fan of is the 'single tube 408a' solution used by a certain manufacturer who encases that tube (after filing down its tip and pins and adding a wirewound resistor) into a plastic bubble package to mimic the look of the VF14. I think that's not seeing the forest for the trees, honestly. The single tube 408a doesn't have a lot of the benefits of the dual tube version; and I understand their reasons for doing it that way are for backwards compatibility... It's so that some day when you find a VF14 tube in your grand-dad's attic, you can plug it in there and it will work fine. But since that day is never going to come; I just think its silly. That's just my personal opinion. That being said, 'that' mic with the plastic 'VF14m' still sounds quite good, because they really cherry pick that one tube and they pay close attention to details elsewhere as well. One interesting story relating to the WA47 you mentioned, you might find interesting. That was something I worked on for nearly 2 years off and on (inbetween many other things, of course), and it started out on a very high road, with me really wanting to make something close as possible to an historic 47 but fully exploiting all the modern/mass production avenues to make it affordable. I had a conversation early on with Andreas from Tube Amp Doctor (Germany), whom is one of the few living vacuum tube engineers you can actually reach out to and ask them to do something for you. As some know, I'm a fan of some of their tubes. I had asked him about actually re-issuing the VF14m tube for me in a miniature glass envelope, as a standard miniature 9 pin tube. He was not very interested in the project, but said that he would look into it. What I was eventually told was that I'd be looking at an engineering R&D cost of about 40-50k up front, before even getting tube #1, and I couldn't even be sure that it was going to be a success. It was a gamble. One that I thought would pay off if it worked out, because I could sell the glass version with an adapter to existing U47 owners... Ultimately, that was too much cost to bear for most any company to take a risk on; and there are other reasons too. There are some slight harmonic effects that come from just being a steel-clad tube, and people don't make those any more. So you might make a glass VF14 that had all the right transfer characteristics but still didn't sound 100% in people's minds like the real thing, and then you still lose. It's a tough thing to solve. Ultimately you just make the best choice from those limited choices available to you. When dealing with very large scale mass production also (1000+ piece orders, etc), your choices are far fewer still. NOS components are out of the question, as are non ROHS compliant parts, etc. I don't even believe a traditional U47 PSU would pass California's efficiency standards or be able to be sold into Canada, etc. Things become very unadventurous and 'vanilla' in part because of the forces at work that you have to abide by. Obviously I have a lot more freedom now than I did then, even if I can't fully recreate a metal clad VF14 in my garage... lol maybe one day! I do have welders in the family. lol
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 22, 2019 20:39:00 GMT -6
Expect the KM84, to be the next big reissue IMHO. Chris that was one of the last mics I worked on from a development standpoint at my previous job, and it came out a little while back. Came out quite good, actually.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jun 22, 2019 21:09:50 GMT -6
Expect the KM84, to be the next big reissue IMHO. Chris I have been thinking the same thing. The capsule is still the same in the KM184 as it was in the 84, and the FET amp is an easy build. If they do a reissue, and they're as good as the originals, I shall own a bushel basket full.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 22, 2019 21:11:21 GMT -6
Good post Chad, but can you please put some more paragraphs in next time, it was really hard to read.
So, you're using a two tube solution in your 47 style mic?
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 22, 2019 23:06:20 GMT -6
Good post Chad, but can you please put some more paragraphs in next time, it was really hard to read. So, you're using a two tube solution in your 47 style mic? sorry, about that. yep, I am. I only use the Western Electric or Northern Electric 408a in pairs, and I personally cleaned and de-scaled and cherry-picked them. I reject more than 50%. I'm sitting on a stash of about 675 pieces left, give or take, with, at the rejection rate, is enough to make about 150 more mics with spares for service down the road. If I ever go beyond that many mics (and doubt i will), I will probably move to either a new production tube like an EF86 if I can get it to behave right (and I don't have high hopes on that, for many reasons), or a solid state emulation of sorts (I do have higher hopes on this, but want to see it done a certain way). Or I might just suffer the costs of buying more 408's off ebay at the onsie-twosie price; but unfortunately they have gone up in cost quite a bit since I invested in this stockpile 2 years ago. CK
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 22, 2019 23:12:08 GMT -6
Expect the KM84, to be the next big reissue IMHO. Chris I have been thinking the same thing. The capsule is still the same in the KM184 as it was in the 84, and the FET amp is an easy build. If they do a reissue, and they're as good as the originals, I shall own a bushel basket full. The WA re-issue was one of the last things I worked on there before leaving, and it was just a project email thread at the time I left, nothing solid. But I think it was carried through decently. If memory serves (and its been 3 years since I looked into this, so I could be mistaken), the current KM184 capsule is not exactly the same as the original K84i capsule used in the KM84. One difference, if I recall, was that the backplate of the original was milled out of nickel and the current one is milled from brass. There may be other differences with the chamber or hole pattern also; I don't remember. Certainly, they are close in any case. What I was working on with our Asian counterpart was reproducing the original K84i capsule exactly, nickel backplate and all (not to be confused with the even earlier KM54 capsule which had an evaporated nickel membrane... this is obviously mylar diaphragm but nickel body). I was also making sure the Cinemag part would be a good surrogate for the original German part. The circuit itself is simple enough. I think the important points were carried through; even if a China mic, it sounded good when I heard it in the studio.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 23, 2019 10:16:25 GMT -6
A few thoughts? A U47 "clone" must have three components to be considered as such: a K47 (or perfectly working M7) capsule, BV8 transformer, and VF14m tube. If it doesn't have those, it ain't a 47. It also should be operating at the optimal 105 volts. Finally, the body and construction must be the same, coincidently the most obtainable aspect to replicate. Case in point. The WARM 47 uses a 12AX7, the same tube as an MXL and dozens of other cheap microphones. The only thing it has in common with a U47 is that it sorta resembles one - kinda - and it has a 47 in its name. You can easily design a cheap mic head amp circuit with a slight bump in the low mids and the 2k region. You might even convince some people that it sounds similar in terms of EQ tone. But the reason those classic mics have stood the test of time is their unparalleled resolution. Neumann had so much R&D money back when radio and recording were king. The small builders can't compete, and there is not a big enough market for the big manufacturers. If you want a great and affordable mic, don't look for a U47 "clone." Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! I can’t buy onto your opinion Dan that a large well paid R&D department is needed to design and build great microphones. I feel that way about small, boutique mic pre designers too. 🤗
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Post by chessparov on Jun 23, 2019 11:14:00 GMT -6
FWIW I think of FLEA/Bock/Chandler and now Heiserman (just to name a few), as being right up there with Neumann... Chris
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2019 11:17:58 GMT -6
How can you say that when, for example, Chandler have only made two mics starting a couple of years ago? I think there's a lot to be said for a track record that stretches back over 90 years and hundreds of models, in the case of Neumann.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 23, 2019 11:38:00 GMT -6
How can you say that when, for example, Chandler have only made two mics starting a couple of years ago? I think there's a lot to be said for a track record that stretches back over 90 years and hundreds of models, in the case of Neumann. I don’t care if a small dedicated company makes only one mic if it’s great. This isn’t an anti Neumann thread. The question I posed is are recent improvements with affordable 47 clones reaching the tipping point where they can comfortably “compete” with the vintage mics. I’m reading a lot on RGO recently to suggest they are.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jun 23, 2019 11:59:28 GMT -6
A few thoughts? A U47 "clone" must have three components to be considered as such: a K47 (or perfectly working M7) capsule, BV8 transformer, and VF14m tube. If it doesn't have those, it ain't a 47. It also should be operating at the optimal 105 volts. Finally, the body and construction must be the same, coincidently the most obtainable aspect to replicate. Case in point. The WARM 47 uses a 12AX7, the same tube as an MXL and dozens of other cheap microphones. The only thing it has in common with a U47 is that it sorta resembles one - kinda - and it has a 47 in its name. You can easily design a cheap mic head amp circuit with a slight bump in the low mids and the 2k region. You might even convince some people that it sounds similar in terms of EQ tone. But the reason those classic mics have stood the test of time is their unparalleled resolution. Neumann had so much R&D money back when radio and recording were king. The small builders can't compete, and there is not a big enough market for the big manufacturers. If you want a great and affordable mic, don't look for a U47 "clone." Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! I can’t buy onto your opinion Dan that a large well paid R&D department is needed to design and build great microphones. I feel that way about small, boutique mic pre designers too. 🤗 They key words are "affordable" and "U47 clone." I agree that there are plenty of very good microphones on the market at affordable prices (sub-$2k). However, attempts to recreate a 47 at low cost miss the mark in terms of replicating the sound, response, and resolution. Even at $4k, the Flea 47 is an incredible microphone in it's own right. Still doesn't sound exactly like a real 47 because it lacks the original component combination. But I had used mine on nearly everything, and it always sounds amazing. Boutique preamps are way easier!
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Post by chessparov on Jun 23, 2019 12:23:21 GMT -6
Although I do realize Chandler is a much newer manufacturer than Neumann-with it's own "sound"... I have every expectation that the REDD and TG, are/will both be viewed as "Modern Classics". Just like the Sony C-800G! Chris
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Post by drbill on Jun 23, 2019 12:34:56 GMT -6
Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! Ugh...I get your sentiment and can kind of buy into it, but your choice of mic would be one of the last I'd ever reach for......
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Post by drbill on Jun 23, 2019 12:39:46 GMT -6
By bluegrassdan's definition, there are only U47 TRIBUTES at this point in time. And I'm OK with that.
It's all semantics anyway.....
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 23, 2019 13:09:24 GMT -6
By bluegrassdan's definition, there are only U47 TRIBUTES at this point in time. And I'm OK with that. It's all semantics anyway..... Yeah, I hate the term clone -- it's a cold and soulless word but it seems to be what we're stuck with. Tribute or homage are more accurate but not perfect. As talked about in a recent thread about Warm's "84," invoking a model # and borrowing the name of loved classic sparks too many bitter debates and unfair comparisons.
As I've stated already, I don't think the goal should be to make an exact copy--we all know that's not possible. But making an affordable mic "in the style of" a 47 that offers similar mojo and usability seems achievable--at least to some.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 23, 2019 14:32:38 GMT -6
Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! Ugh...I get your sentiment and can kind of buy into it, but your choice of mic would be one of the last I'd ever reach for...... The original incarnation of 414, with the C12 capsule, is a formidable microphone indeed IMHO. Chris
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Post by teejay on Jun 23, 2019 15:04:49 GMT -6
Just a clarification out of respect for Chad, his hard work, and great products. His company is "Signal Art Electronics". I keep seeing it being referenced as "Arts", which understandably is easily done.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 23, 2019 15:23:18 GMT -6
My answer would be a straight up No.
I’ve had every clone out there aside from something that’s come out within the past 6 months to a year next to either our tele badged or Neumann badged long body. Both have the real deal tube and neither are showing any signs of needing any work done.
There is always minimum 15% missing. And that seems to be the most important part.
I’ll also say that :gasp: I don’t put that mic in front of just anybody. You’ve got to honestly deserve to sing into something like that for me to consider taking it out of the mic locker. And even in that case, many times the 47 isn’t what’s needed on a voice.
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Post by damoongo on Jun 23, 2019 15:53:23 GMT -6
I’ll also say that :gasp: I don’t put that mic in front of just anybody. You’ve got to honestly deserve to sing into something like that for me to consider taking it out of the mic locker. And even in that case, many times the 47 isn’t what’s needed on a voice. Agreed!
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Post by damoongo on Jun 23, 2019 16:23:20 GMT -6
Yeah, I hate the term clone -- it's a cold and soulless word but it seems to be what we're stuck with. Tribute or homage are more accurate but not perfect. As talked about in a recent thread about Warm's "84," invoking a model # and borrowing the name of loved classic sparks too many bitter debates and unfair comparisons.
As I've stated already, I don't think the goal should be to make an exact copy--we all know that's not possible. But making an affordable mic "in the style of" a 47 that offers similar mojo and usability seems achievable--at least to some.
Like I said, if it only sets you back $1-2k for a clone, you're not really putting yourself too much further away from a real u47 if you decide to get one later. I still like a lot of the records I made with those mics before I got a vintage u47. So there's no sense in waiting around for someone to tell you it's OK to start cutting some vocals with whatever you've got! Just don't hold your breath waiting for anyone to say they are the same.
If a u47 isn't in the cards right now, then get a clone and get busy! Then you can form your own opinions. Rent, borrow or book a studio with some others so you can work with these tools too, then you can make informed decisions about what is excellent and inspiring for you to work with. (Maybe you already do this, and have a deep mic cabinet, and a great track record etc. But the general philosophy apples to all of us when evaluating our tools and sounds.) Regarding the need for big R&D in original microphone design, it certainly was the case back then. But for a clone? Of course not. It's largely been done and you're just trying to make it work within a price point with substitute parts because the original components don't exist. But expert and intelligent builders with clever design mods are always very much appreciated. I have great admiration for the talented builders on the forum here, and the talented builders of the reissue 47fet and u67 at Neumann. But the lion's share of R&D has been done. And yes, Bluegrassdan, if that 414 is an EB with a "brass ring" ck12, I'm with you. Otherwise, I'm with drbill!
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Post by chessparov on Jun 23, 2019 16:39:53 GMT -6
When Sinatra sang and recorded "It Was A Very Good Year", the AKG D24 dynamic microphone used...
Yielded a final product, that sounded remarkably close IMHO, to Frank on a pristine 47. (If I didn't tell 'ya, could you reliably tell the difference?)
I think the "elephant in the room" of this thread, is the "chemical reaction" of Talent meets microphone. The various idiosyncrasies of a voice or instrument, can and could help "fill in the blanks" of that final recording. Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jun 23, 2019 16:44:10 GMT -6
I’ll also say that :gasp: I don’t put that mic in front of just anybody. You’ve got to honestly deserve to sing into something like that for me to consider taking it out of the mic locker. And even in that case, many times the 47 isn’t what’s needed on a voice. Agreed! And maybe for last resort sonic emergencies, like recording American Idol's William Hung, or a most patriotically inspired Roseanne Barr! Chris
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 23, 2019 16:47:52 GMT -6
Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it! Ugh...I get your sentiment and can kind of buy into it, but your choice of mic would be one of the last I'd ever reach for...... God damn me too...let us go bond somewhere with our mutual distaste of such an overrated ear scraping microphone... sorry, carry on everyone.
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