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Post by lpedrum on Jun 21, 2019 15:57:23 GMT -6
If I understand recent threads on RGO correctly, the answer seems to be yes -- or close -- or almost. By "there" I don't mean a perfect sonic copy of a vintage Neumann. What I mean is that the quality, purposefulness, musicality, interactiveness, and inspirational effect is comparable. Most of us are aware that Telefunken, Bock, Flea and others have been creating u47 clones for a while that are very impressive. Sadly their cost is challenging for many, even many that make a living in music. Yes, there are great 47-ish mics made by Warm Audio, AA and others that will get you part way there, and arguably more than enough of the way there to record great music. But with the more recent arrival of Heiserman, Signal Arts, Barbaric, and perhaps a handful of others the ground seems to be shifting this year. Often teaming with the same small group of well known capsule craftsman, transformer makers and DIYers, a truly inspiring 47 clone at the $2000 price point seems to be close at hand. I know there are skeptics here such as DrBill, and I respect their viewpoint and ears. (I've yet to play a new acoustic guitar that sounds like an old J-45--so I get it.) I've been making and recording music for a long time and have used vintage Neumanns. But there are members of this site that have a much deeper knowledge of vintage mics than myself.
So I'm putting it out there -- are we there yet? If not, what's still lacking? Will we ever get there? Why not?
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Post by drbill on Jun 21, 2019 16:48:55 GMT -6
I know there are skeptics here such as DrBill, and I respect their viewpoint and ears. I'm not a 100% skeptic. Many of the mics you listed are FABULOUS. I plan on buying 1/2/more from at least two of the companies you listed.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 21, 2019 16:56:07 GMT -6
But LPE forgot to mention an even MORE affordable option... The Behringer T-47 TUBE Microphone! (oops I mentioned it). But hey, it's a "47"-it says so. Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 21, 2019 17:07:04 GMT -6
If you want a 47 of that quality in the $2000 price point the only way to go is either DIY or having a company like Barbaric or Signal Arts build it for you. The cost of the materials alone could hit $1,500 depending on the capsule, transformer, body kit, and tube you want. Do you want a case for it when it’s not in use? How much do you want it to look like a U47, etc. You also need to make sure you know what you want sonically. Different choices will yield different results. Stam’s SA47 is in your price range, but it is a darker version of the U47 sound.
The boutique companies you mentioned want to turn a profit and have to charge more to make their money back. Some have even more invested as they designed and manufacture their own parts, like FleA. The Heiserman H47T is really more in this category at 3k than in the same category as AA or Warm. I can personally vouch for how good the FleA 47 sounds, as I’ve used one several times, but it’s not cheap. Does it sound exactly like a vintage U47... no. If it doesn’t have a real VF14 there will always be something different about it. Same as the AC701k and the M49. Even when looking at these really good clones it’s important to know sonically what you are looking for. Each has their own version of the ideal U47.
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Post by mhbunch on Jun 22, 2019 1:18:27 GMT -6
Pearlman has some offerings around the 1k mark.
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Post by svart on Jun 22, 2019 6:34:40 GMT -6
I built my own u47 for 1k and I'd put it up against any u47, clone or original.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 22, 2019 7:08:46 GMT -6
Do they sound exactly like vintage? No, probably not...those 50+ year old mics have advantage of time that mellows them a bit. Don’t know whether that’s the tubes, capacitors, capsules settling-in (even failing) in unique and great sounding ways...but I’m not particularly even worried about an exact perfect match as long as the character is there...and sometimes I imagine they sound like these mice might have sounded out of the box. That Heiserman has the 47 mid thing completely down...also It’s one of the only clones I’ve heard that does the compression thing like the vintage does. As for the Upton - I’m completely blown away by the stock one I just got. Talking about a vocal mic you could just put up and not even bother with eq. Wow. Is it as “reedy” sounding as jsteiger’s vintage 251? Probably not...but damn it sounds amazing.
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Post by Ward on Jun 22, 2019 7:13:59 GMT -6
I built my own u47 for 1k and I'd put it up against any u47, clone or original. Any chance you might be persuaded to build another . . . you know, for a friend er acquaintance er fellow forumite ? ? You're a trusted expert around here!
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 22, 2019 7:56:45 GMT -6
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Post by damoongo on Jun 22, 2019 8:35:09 GMT -6
As far as making a true clone goes - we are not there yet, and we won’t be... We all know the 3 main sonic components in the design are capsule, transformer and tube. 2 out of 3 don’t exist anymore and never will. We can build great mics inspired by u47’s, that are capable of some great recordings. But we can’t make u47s
I’ve had a Wonder, a Soundelux (Bock) e47, a T-funk USA, a couple DIY’s, an AA, as well as access to two Tele badged original 47’s on loan from another studio. None came close to them. In sound or inspiration or respect or confidence (not to mention client draw).
So I pulled up my boot straps and got one. (Now two.) I love going in to work to use them. If I could get that from the others, I wouldn’t have spent the cash. But alas...
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 22, 2019 9:16:08 GMT -6
As far as making a true clone goes - we are not there yet, and we won’t be... We all know the 3 main sonic components in the design are capsule, transformer and tube. 2 out of 3 don’t exist anymore and never will. We can build great mics inspired by u47’s, that are capable of some great recordings. But we can’t make u47s I’ve had a Wonder, a Soundelux (Bock) e47, a T-funk USA, a couple DIY’s, an AA, as well as access to two Tele badged original 47’s on loan from another studio. None came close to them. In sound or inspiration or respect or confidence (not to mention client draw). So I pulled up my boot straps and got one. (Now two.) I love going in to work to use them. If I could get that from the others, I wouldn’t have spent the cash. But alas... Great post. However...all of the examples you list are somewhat dated attempts at the u47. My purpose in starting this thread was to point out that the ground seems to shifting very recently. I’d be curious to hear your opinion about newer efforts. Nonetheless I think we’ve found a true skeptic!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 9:18:23 GMT -6
I built my own u47 for 1k and I'd put it up against any u47, clone or original. Don't suppose you'd be willing to supply a list of parts and instructions on how to DIY one? Which capsule, transformer and tube did you use?
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Post by drbill on Jun 22, 2019 9:32:41 GMT -6
I know there are skeptics here such as DrBill, and I respect their viewpoint and ears. I'm not a 100% skeptic. Many of the mics you listed are FABULOUS. I plan on buying 1/2/more from at least two of the companies you listed. To add to my original post - I've got a Michael Joly mic that cost somewhere around $800 (can't remember exact cost) with a NOS tube that gets 90% of the way there. The only place if falls short is REALLY loud grinding vocals. Then, when compared with the vintage 47 from Capitol (Frank), it falls short of Frank's nice buttery, HF grainy distortion / compression. But for normal vocals, it gets there. I've got a custom built and seriously tweaked MK 47 that DD built for me. That thing gets 95% of the way there. I haven't put it up side by side with some of Capitol's 47/48's but it gets closer than the MJ mic. Very nice mic. Are they 100% clones? No, of course not. They don't have NOS VF14's or NOS M7's made the OLD way. Those parts are unobtanium. And we will never get closer. Only further away. The only way to 100% get there is to do what damoongo did and buy a vintage one. But there is a problem there too - and that's the clear fact that not all vintage units are equal. They vary widely. And almost all of them are ticking time bombs waiting for a 60 year old tube or capsule to go. And that is fact. They are all on a path to failure. And I'm not willing to put down that kind of coin for something so old, fragile and close to failure. So the high end, tweaked and massaged clones are the way to go IMO.
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Post by damoongo on Jun 22, 2019 9:33:31 GMT -6
As far as making a true clone goes - we are not there yet, and we won’t be... We all know the 3 main sonic components in the design are capsule, transformer and tube. 2 out of 3 don’t exist anymore and never will. We can build great mics inspired by u47’s, that are capable of some great recordings. But we can’t make u47s I’ve had a Wonder, a Soundelux (Bock) e47, a T-funk USA, a couple DIY’s, an AA, as well as access to two Tele badged original 47’s on loan from another studio. None came close to them. In sound or inspiration or respect or confidence (not to mention client draw). So I pulled up my boot straps and got one. (Now two.) I love going in to work to use them. If I could get that from the others, I wouldn’t have spent the cash. But alas... Great post. However...all of the examples you list are somewhat dated attempts at the u47. My purpose in starting this thread was to point out that the ground seems to shifting very recently. I’d be curious to hear your opinion about newer efforts. Nonetheless I think we’ve found a true skeptic! I didn’t know anyone new was making better knockoff transformers than the AMI used in my DIY. Also tried a D7 capsule from Danny Bouchard who is modern and well liked. But have I tried everybody and his dog’s 47 knockoff? No. But I have definitely given a lot of them a lot of use. As in, I made records with them. Not just put them up and said “check - 1 - 2.” A lot of what we do is revealed in mix and how it translates and how a vocal sound informs the rest of the production decisions we make along the way. So, not a skeptic exactly. I prefer “enlightened” 😋😉
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 22, 2019 10:25:12 GMT -6
I didn’t know anyone new was making better knockoff transformers than the AMI used in my DIY. Also tried a D7 capsule from Danny Bouchard who is modern and well liked. But have I tried everybody and his dog’s 47 knockoff? No. But I have definitely given a lot of them a lot of use. As in, I made records with them. Not just put them up and said “check - 1 - 2.” A lot of what we do is revealed in mix and how it translates and how a vocal sound informs the rest of the production decisions we make along the way.
So, not a skeptic exactly. I prefer “enlightened” 😋😉 [/quote]
I get where you’re coming from. But a vintage 47 is simply not possible for many working producers and studios, especially if you add in the repair concerns that Bill mentioned. The thing that intrigues me at this point in time is that we may have reached a tipping point where the clones now offer the euphonic inspiration that we love in the originals. Some here seem to think that’s happening.
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Post by damoongo on Jun 22, 2019 11:08:00 GMT -6
I understand about the prohibitive costs for sure. (Eating a lot of rice and beans over here lately!) Just thought I’d share my experience with other mics as to how I got to here, and alleviate any concerns that I’m a “vintage snob”. Just going for what moves me, and the artists in front of the mics. But keeping the costs in mind, having a “90%” sounding clone vs a 100% original can be a big marketing plus, as many artists have at least the initial ideal of “no compromise” for their art. So it could pay for itself in more/better work at a slightly higher rate, which snowballs into better artists, more work etc etc...
As for repairs and maintenance, the concerns are slightly misunderstood. . (The sun at the center of our solar system is also a ticking time bomb.) But VF14m’s in u47 circuit are operating at just over half of their intended plate voltage (34v) and heater voltage (36v). Cathode voltage is quite low as well (1.1v). Under these conditions, the VF14’s SHOULD last a very long time if power supply voltages are kept in check and the tubes are not physically abused (dropped). It turns out that many VF14’s were unnecessarily replaced (when replacements were easy to get hold of) because of the thin silver plating in the female tube socket becoming corroded. The simple act of reseating the tube (or cleaning socket) would have sufficed. But hindsight is always 20/20. This is not to say that they don’t go bad, but rarely do they go bad from normal use.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 22, 2019 12:26:00 GMT -6
But keeping the costs in mind, having a “90%” sounding clone vs a 100% original can be a big marketing plus I'm realistic about never achieving a 100% clone. I guess when I say "Are we there yet?" I mean something like this: 1. Do we feel a similar euphoria and satisfaction when using the new 47 "clones?" 2. Is the character of the new mic close enough to the original that whatever percentage of sound isn't reached (or is slightly different) becomes irrelevant? (a sort of sonic tipping point) 3. Does it sit in the mix as well as the vintage mics? 4. Does it inspire singers and instrumentalists similarly to a vintage u47? 5. Do we still love it after months of use or do we discover subtle flaws? 6. Is the new 47 so good that we no longer lust after the vintage model? By the way, I really appreciate your posts damoongo because you're coming from years of experience and use of 47s.
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 22, 2019 12:41:32 GMT -6
I built my own u47 for 1k and I'd put it up against any u47, clone or original. Any chance you might be persuaded to build another . . . you know, for a friend er acquaintance er fellow forumite ? ? You're a trusted expert around here! If he can't, I can.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 22, 2019 13:06:01 GMT -6
Bad tubes never really die anyway, they just become "un-enlighted".
Particulary if it's primarily for personal use, you could find something like a Soundelux U99, works better on your voice (and/or other intended uses) than... The mighty U67 (gasp!) Well that happened in my case. It opened my mind, regarding the better "inspired by" (I prefer that over the term "clone" BTW) microphones.
The "other" microphone I had that experience with, was comparing the Heiserman H47 FET, versus the Neumann U47 FET RI. When the H47 FET edged the Neumann, I was like "Woah Man, this is epic!" (sorry part Surfer Dude here)
The "darker side" of the U47 type tone, is my personal preference, including the M7 capsule over K47-in the tube verson.
MJB made the brilliant observation, that what separates a (VERY) excellent vocal microphone, from a truly great one is the degree of "low level detail" (or lack thereof).
This is why, for example, my good sounding Oktava 219 & 319's, can stay at home. And why I'm bringing my U195 instead, to a Recording Studio! Chris
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Post by damoongo on Jun 22, 2019 13:48:23 GMT -6
But keeping the costs in mind, having a “90%” sounding clone vs a 100% original can be a big marketing plus I'm realistic about never achieving a 100% clone. I guess when I say "Are we there yet?" I mean something like this: 1. Do we feel a similar euphoria and satisfaction when using the new 47 "clones?" 2. Is the character of the new mic close enough to the original that whatever percentage of sound isn't reached (or is slightly different) becomes irrelevant? (a sort of sonic tipping point) 3. Does it sit in the mix as well as the vintage mics? 4. Does it inspire singers and instrumentalists similarly to a vintage u47? 5. Do we still love it after months of use or do we discover subtle flaws? 6. Is the new 47 so good that we no longer lust after the vintage model? By the way, I really appreciate your posts damoongo because you're coming from years of experience and use of 47s. Cool. Based on the mics I worked with mentioned above (Wunder, Soundelux etc.) I can honestly say no to all 6 questions (except maybe #5 because I love some of those mics too). But as I said, I haven’t owned every u47 clone out there... But if it’s only $1000 it won’t set you back too far from purchasing an original u47 at some point. It’s when you spend $5000 to get half way there that it becomes a real barrier to getting an original because your funds are so depleted... Other folks are better equipped to talk about the newer crop of clones.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jun 22, 2019 17:58:15 GMT -6
A few thoughts?
A U47 "clone" must have three components to be considered as such: a K47 (or perfectly working M7) capsule, BV8 transformer, and VF14m tube. If it doesn't have those, it ain't a 47. It also should be operating at the optimal 105 volts. Finally, the body and construction must be the same, coincidently the most obtainable aspect to replicate.
Case in point. The WARM 47 uses a 12AX7, the same tube as an MXL and dozens of other cheap microphones. The only thing it has in common with a U47 is that it sorta resembles one - kinda - and it has a 47 in its name.
You can easily design a cheap mic head amp circuit with a slight bump in the low mids and the 2k region. You might even convince some people that it sounds similar in terms of EQ tone. But the reason those classic mics have stood the test of time is their unparalleled resolution. Neumann had so much R&D money back when radio and recording were king. The small builders can't compete, and there is not a big enough market for the big manufacturers.
If you want a great and affordable mic, don't look for a U47 "clone." Grab an AKG 414 and make a killer record with it!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 22, 2019 18:54:30 GMT -6
You need to listen to a Chandler REDD. It has all the inspiration and vibe any great mic should have. It's not a clone, but it has same kind of magic a U47, U67 and 251 have. It inspires you to sing better, and in fact, I sing with better pitch through it than any mic. Also, if you like 414's, look at the Lewitt 540, it all there with an even better low end.
The Neumann reissue 67 sounds great, but 7G's is steep. Perhaps they'll remake a 47 soon too, but I doubt it. I'm waiting to receive the Stam Audio SA67 with the new Tim Campbell capsule. I have a very good feeling it just may get me where I need to be. So far, the Soyuz 0-17 and Chandler Redd have the magic, the MK67 sounds like a U87 on steroids, which is pretty damn good. Even those were a little pricey for me.
Bluegrassdan is exactly right regarding resolution. That's the missing ingredient in so many very decent mics like the Warm 47. Still at the price point, it's a big relief from the typical $400-$900 Chinese capsule pretty boy mics that sound like fingernails on a screen door.
So, now that Stam is upgrading the 67 clone, I think we may very well be "there" as you put it. High end quality, low level detail and enough "bigness" to make you want to sing expressively because it's the way you always wanted your voice to sound.
Now, that's not to say a great condition classic mic isn't even more desirable, but between $1,800 and $4,000 you can indeed buy happiness.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 22, 2019 19:30:47 GMT -6
You need to listen to a Chandler REDD. It has all the inspiration and vibe any great mic should have. It's not a clone per se, but it has same kind of magic a U47, U67 and 251 have. It inspires you to sing better, and in fact, I sing with better pitch through it than any mic. Also, if you like 414's, look at the Lewitt 540, it all there with an even better low end. Neumann reissue 67 sounds great, perhaps they'll remake a 47 soon. I think Neumann will never commit to reissuing the U47 or M49 until someone can manufacture a decent VF14 or AC701k. Without the right tubes it’s just another clone and there are plenty of decent knock offs out there. The Redd is something different. It’s really nice on certain things, but I’d grab a FleA 47 before I grab the REDD if your really looking for a 47ish sound. It’s cheaper than the REDD too.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 22, 2019 19:44:18 GMT -6
I agree Vincent, I doubt neumann will ever reissue a 47, but you know the saying, never say never. I haven't heard the Flea47, but I am curious about the Golden Age 47. It's capsule design is supposedly somewhere between a 47 and 67, which sounds like a great combo to me.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 22, 2019 20:00:03 GMT -6
Expect the KM84, to be the next big reissue IMHO. Chris
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