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Post by scumbum on May 6, 2017 0:20:21 GMT -6
Ok John .....Usually I ignore your posts because they are always negative and add NOTHING to threads . I even have you on ignore because its a waste of time even reading your posts . But I will waste my time giving you this response . First off I never said "I think vinyl is muddy or lacking highs" .... I really wish you actually read posts before you made responses . "But then you'd think "most" people would say Vinyl is too muddy and missing too much highs , but a lot of these people grew on digital and still say they prefer Vinyl . If you could pinpoint an age group , older folks who grew up on it and the young kids today , as the Vinyl lovers then there shouldn't be much people inbetween those two groups that love vinyl ........but thinking Vinyl sounds better is a general overall belief ." And the whole premise of the thread is IF YOU MAKE A MIX SOUND LIKE A VINYL MIX AND DELIVER IT IN THE DIGITAL FORMAT "PEOPLE" WILL THINK IT SOUNDS LIKE A DEMO COMPARED TO OTHER ALL DIGITAL SONGS........ Understand now I'm trying to make my posts as simple as possible so you can understand because for some reason you have a hard time understanding. "If I posted a digital mix of mine that used a Vinyl record as a reference and imitated its sound (but didn't say I was going for a Vinyl style mix) , everyone that praises Vinyl would say my mix doesn't sound good......sounds like a Demo ." I wanted to discuss why a Vinyl mix is considered the best , yet if you deliver that same type of mix in Digital form it would be unacceptable and sounds like a Demo ?" Theres some more quotes . YES PEOPLE APPROACH MIXING TO VINYL DIFFERENT THAN DIGITAL . Vinyl can't take as much highs because it will distort and can't take as much bass or it will make the needle jump . But Digital you can crank the highs and bass and thats what people do . So yes the approach is much different . And this is why I grow tired of forums . They really are a waste of time . Too many people don't actually read posts , but just want to jump in with their opinion and prove they are right . Whatever . Real life is way too fun than to waste on the internet . So I'm done wasting my time here . John post all you want . We all need your genius and wisdom .
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Post by scumbum on May 4, 2017 23:16:51 GMT -6
Nonsense. An analogue recording on CD sounds worse than when they take the same master tape and make LP's. When listening on vinyl, I find I connect to the artist much easier. With digital recordings, it often becomes wallpaper. Even an all digital session will often sound better on vinyl than CD or downloads. You think otherwise, no problem. I sold all my LP's a while after CD's first came out. I only went back to vinyl around four years ago, and I haven't listened to anything digitally since, other than for work purposes. I'll keep enjoying my records. I'm with Jcoutou. Me, either give me vinyl, and a digital download or I usually don't buy it. Thats why I started this thread . Is it the actual medium thats better ? Or....is it that its Mastered and even mixed differently than the Digital version ........and maybe the majority of people that prefer Vinyl is simply because they don't like the usual Mastering or Mix style engineers use to make Digital recordings . Is there even an apples to apples , exact CD and Vinyl release that use the same mix and Mastering process ?? Because every comparison I've heard the CD is much brighter and louder .
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Post by scumbum on May 4, 2017 18:55:03 GMT -6
You'll also find that the non-trend following vinyl lovers are generally older folks from the vinyl era. You know what else they like from that era? Bands from that era. Why? Because they've proven that folks generally form their favorite objects/items/music and such from the period around adolescence. That's why you always hear about "the good old days" whenever you talk to older people. I can see your point that people get used to a certain sound . But then you'd think "most" people would say Vinyl is too muddy and missing too much highs , but a lot of these people grew on digital and still say they prefer Vinyl . If you could pinpoint an age group , older folks who grew up on it and the young kids today , as the Vinyl lovers then there shouldn't be much people inbetween those two groups that love vinyl ........but thinking Vinyl sounds better is a general overall belief . I think almost all audiophiles , the most anal audio guys , love Vinyl . The guys that spend the most $$$ on audio gear spin vinyl .
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Post by scumbum on May 4, 2017 14:53:43 GMT -6
Recordings from the vinyl era tend to sound better because performances from the vinyl era were better. And whilst we have re-kindled the love affair with vinyl, we have done nothing to get back to the performance level of the original vinyl era. In and of itself, the vinyl sound is rubbish. The format is not where the sound came from, that was from the performances. I agree about the performance but you missed one of my points . I think ericn hit the nail on the head , the mastering . Take an original Vinyl release , then take the more modern CD release . Now you have the same performance but the Mastering is WAAAAAAYYY different . And thats why I started the thread to discuss this . If you take those two different releases and did a poll , I bet a large majority would pick that the Vinyl is better sounding than the modern CD release . Ok , so in general they like the Vinyl sound , but if you released digital or CD's that were Mastered like Vinyl ..........suddenly its too quiet , not enough highs.....and so on.... It just seems like theres this weird double standard for what sounds good on Digital . I bring this whole topic up because I got the re-release of the "Ramones Rocket To Russia" on Vinyl . Supposedly from what I read its cut from the original analog masters , no digital in the chain , they got as close to the original Vinyl release as possible . So I copied the vinyl to my computer and did side by side level matched comparisons to the early 2000's release on CD . They sound about as different as you can get . The CD is very bright and pretty damn loud in comparison of course with scooped mids . But if you did a straight release to CD instead of Vinyl that sounded like the original Vinyl release but on Digital everyone would complain it didn't sound good and pick it apart ,
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Post by scumbum on May 4, 2017 11:24:33 GMT -6
I know we live in the twilight zone or bizarro world because so many strange things happen . Like all Countries say their main goal is Peace , yet there is war and talk of war everywhere and an arms race . Doesn't seem very peaceful . And to add to our bizzaro world , what I find strange is the majority of audiophiles and regular people praising Vinyl as the best way to listen to music . That CD and Digital don't sound as good . But I know its not the format . Its really the way people mix in digital vs how they mix for Vinyl . Compare an older Vinyl release to its modern CD counterpart and you'll hear a huge difference in the way its mixed . If I posted a digital mix of mine that used a Vinyl record as a reference and imitated its sound (but didn't say I was going for a Vinyl style mix) , everyone that praises Vinyl would say my mix doesn't sound good......sounds like a Demo . The level is way too low -16rms , theres not enough highs it sounds dull , too much mids sounds muddy (Vinyl Warmth) , not enough punch needs more compression , not enough bass it rolls off around 80Hz.............on and on and on...........But 5 minutes later in another thread they would then praise Vinyl for its wonderful warm sound and that Digital is inferior . Yet if you give them a Digital mix that is mixed like Vinyl its no good ? I wanted to discuss why a Vinyl mix is considered the best , yet if you deliver that same type of mix in Digital form it would be unacceptable and sounds like a Demo ?
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Post by scumbum on May 3, 2017 9:32:51 GMT -6
Yesterday I gave a spectrum analyzer a try to help me Master a song . I am no Mastering engineer at all , its like black magic to me . Anyways I think it turned out pretty good . Maybe you guys with better systems and ears can give a listen ? I copied the EQ curve of the Nirvana song In Bloom . Not exactly the same , but the overall frequency relationships . I looked at 20hz to around 200hz , then 200hz to 700 hz , then 700hz to 3K..........and looked at the rms difference to kinda figure out the curve . So if you have time , compare my song (Ramones Cover) with In Bloom . www.dropbox.com/s/fx66039y0ctm0d4/Beat%20on%20the%20smat%2016bit.wav?dl=0Sibilance is also a problem for me , I'm always fighting it . Let me know if theres too much sibilance . Theres one word in the first chorus "back" I'm gonna fix it sounds weird .
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Post by scumbum on May 2, 2017 9:45:55 GMT -6
Any of you guys use a spectrum analyzer when mixing or mastering ? Any Tips ?
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Post by scumbum on May 2, 2017 9:44:01 GMT -6
All this talk of no compression and limiting when cutting vinyl records and everybody ( well most people ) praise vinyl records for their sound......perhaps its an indication that compression and limiting ( LOUD ) is not something the average person likes . They don't know whats going on but they know the CD doesn't sound as good as their vinyl .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 30, 2017 23:22:37 GMT -6
I've had the Oxford Transmod since it came out , what is that like 12 years ?? And never really used it . Tonight I tried it and its not fair . Its TOO EASY to get punchy drums with these things . It went from sounding kinda wimpy to Tommy Lee suddenly beating the hell out of the drums . A guy at a studio told me years back the transmod plugin is the Auto-Tune for drums .
Geesh.......kids have it easy these days in the studio .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 30, 2017 23:12:43 GMT -6
Leave it to spock to bring some Logic to a thread and suddenly the poo poo hits the fan and all hell breaks loose !!!!
I love it !
Live Long And...... Compress Audio.......
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Post by scumbum on Apr 27, 2017 11:31:51 GMT -6
When I listen to Morrison on LA Woman I doubt he had much mic technique and his shouts that poke out of the mix enhance the mood. The rest of the mix sounds glued, but if he was as glued the song wouldn't be as rousing. I can't think of a single modern song that has as much raw energy coming from the vocal. Perhaps that's because rock is dead, replaced by a sanitized, over compressed version of engineer overreach. And I say that as one who is just as guilty as the next guy. This is something I too am going to be experimenting with. He had mic technique , he expressed the song exactlly how it should be , hitting the loud notes and soft notes with just the right amount of volume and power . He had control of his voice . Have another guy sing that song and he'd hit those notes too loud and hard , it would be overbearing and you'd have to compress it . Thats what I'm hearing when I practice without compression , when the right words are emphasized and it pokes out where it should be its really more interesting to listen too . I think its just a matter with every instrument , either you practice to get control of your dynamics or you don't and then have to rely on compression to fix inconsistencies in your playing .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 27, 2017 9:17:33 GMT -6
Okay , the concept of no dynamics on vocals is almost no existent when you consider mixing, anything on the buss or during mastering is going to effect the vocal! It's more a question of when was the compression applied! It seems to me that you'd better have a singer that knows what they're doing if you want to use no ..or even just a little compression. As a one-man singer/songwriter operation, I'm finding that putting a little on the way in (and monitoring it while I sing) is not only more pleasing, but also guides my performance because I'm hearing something closer to the end product. As far as less is concerned, I've recently discovered the trick of sending most everything except the vocal to a buss with a compressor keyed to the vocal. That way, I feel like I don't have to apply as much additional compression to the vocal. More and more ITB comps have this feature now. All that said, I'm enamored with the idea of using compression to create the perception of dynamic range. It seems counter-intuitive, but that mind-set seems to work for me. So far from practicing I've found you gotta have the mindset and goal of using no compression from the start or its not gonna work . Record yourself and then listen back . You'll hear where you have to make minor adjustments . After awhile you start fine tuning your singing and each take gets a little better . Like bob said you gotta keep the same distance from the mic . And a lot of notes you hit too loud or too soft , that you rely on compression to fix , you either need more vocal control or move your head from the mic . Usually its more vocal control . I also play drums . Its feels like the same thing as far as controling your dynamics . If you wanna sound good you gotta control your drum hits . Its like minimal micing the drums and relying on the drummer to control his dynamics . If the mindset isn't there it ain't gonna work . I think everyone should try it . It seems like its improving my singing a lot ! Before I didn't think about all these details and would compress like crazy . Now I'm focused 100% on controling every detail of the sound . Sing into a mic , playback and listen , if it doesn't sound good adjust until it does . Even if you still use compression its a great exercise and when you do use compression I'm sure it will sound better and you'll need much less .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 23:41:20 GMT -6
We avoided compression as much as possible at Motown. DBX offered the opportunity to use none and Cal Harris jumped on it. He told me there was none used for the mastering too. Heaven knows what happened to the CDs. Time to buy some used Lionel Richie albums from the 80s to use as a mix reference .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 16:11:37 GMT -6
Lionel Richie's solo albums in the '80s had no compression on anything. They were recorded using DBX on a Studer. Thats cool , Do you know why that decision was made ?
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 9:11:36 GMT -6
Just great .... haven't listened to any Doors for ages. Dunno about compression - it certainly has "glue" provided by that beautiful bass. Been listening to this cut a lot lately. Sounds great. You can't hear the kick drum at all, but the bass drives the song, and the top of the kit sounds sweet and classic Densmore groove. When LA Woman came out, I'd thought the Doors had shot their wad, and I was floored by how good the record was. your right , there is no kick drum !
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 9:07:40 GMT -6
This no compression idea on vocals came to me cause I've been tracking without headphones using monitors and it reminded me of a P.A. at a live show . At live shows a lot of times theres no compression on the vocals . So why not do the same thing in the studio ? Why does it work live but not in the studio ?
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Post by scumbum on Apr 26, 2017 9:01:48 GMT -6
I'd have to look around but I think he just ran the vocal through it for the sound but didn't compress it .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 24, 2017 23:12:28 GMT -6
Not that old 37 . But i was lucky to grow up before the internet and computers really took off , I miss that time . I don't own a smart phone and never will . I was fortunate that I was always listening to good music growing up . Grandma was in love with Elvis , frank sinatra , fred astaire and old movies . My mom was in love with the beatles and dad was in a bar cover band playing 50's-60's music . So even though I didn't grow up in those generations they were pretty relevant to my childhood because I have memories of sitting in front of a record player listening to them at home or Grandma's house . I was known as the kid who listened to "His parents music" in school , but I didn't care .....I thought most of the current stuff was crap even back then . I figured we were a similar age. I'm 33. We seem to like a lot of similar 90's stuff. I'm just surprised that you're as old school as you are. I'm weird . My parents call me kramer from seinfeld . I don't look like him or dress like him , I'm just into all these different random things like Kramer and I kinda act like him . He hangs out with all these random people and has random things he gets into . I'm ashamed to say I shop at Hot Topic . My favorite music is punk . But I listen to everything . I go from Slayer to ABBA , Frank Sinatra , to Pantera in one listening session . I feel like when Korn Follow the Leader came out , is when music started to go down hill and die . So I like everything up to that album . That album was a let down . So 1998 , the death of music for me .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 24, 2017 17:43:32 GMT -6
What are some recordings I can listen to that have no compression on vocals ?
I've been trying to practice recording myself and getting a vocal take where I don't need compression . I just wonder if singing in this way you lose some emotion or the performance suffers in some way .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 24, 2017 13:40:47 GMT -6
Not that old 37 . But i was lucky to grow up before the internet and computers really took off , I miss that time . I don't own a smart phone and never will . I was fortunate that I was always listening to good music growing up . Grandma was in love with Elvis , frank sinatra , fred astaire and old movies . My mom was in love with the beatles and dad was in a bar cover band playing 50's-60's music . So even though I didn't grow up in those generations they were pretty relevant to my childhood because I have memories of sitting in front of a record player listening to them at home or Grandma's house . I was known as the kid who listened to "His parents music" in school , but I didn't care .....I thought most of the current stuff was crap even back then .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 23, 2017 18:36:42 GMT -6
The one thing I do go by is interviews by famous engineer producers . Like Flood for example says he uses a beta58 90% of the time when recording vocals . I picked one up and track with the monitors on and l'm loving it . But on GS a beta58 is crap and can't be used on a pro recording .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 23, 2017 18:29:56 GMT -6
I pretty much gave up on the internet as far as gear reviews is concerned . According to the internet everything I use is complete crap and unusable. I don't form an opinion until I hear it for myself through my speakers .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 23, 2017 10:17:19 GMT -6
I work at 24 bit how does this apply? I have never used dither when going from digital to analog 😀 and my music sounds fine to ears way more " refined " than mine 😎🤓 In my mind the analog HW noise level is going to be higher than any added dither " shaped noise " to any signal being sent to the HW from the DAC.. theoretical yes 🤓 32 bit float has a sliding scale ( mantissa expressed as an exponent )and is not the same as 24 bit integer... I understand theoretically 32 bit float has infinite headroom however DAC or ADC cannnot reproduce that dynamic range when converting audio. Also why would I want to work in 32 bit float?.. Thanks in advance ... So is this info incorrect? "24-bit audio does not require dithering, as the noise level of the digital converter is always louder than the required level of any dither that might be applied. 24-bit audio could theoretically encode 144 dB of dynamic range, but based on manufacturer's datasheets no ADCs exist that can provide higher than ~125 dB." Hopefully someone can explain all this to you because I'm interested as well . One little test with dither is mix all ITB , bounce to disk in Pro Tools @24 bit , one mix with no dither , the other with 24bit dither as the last plugin . It saves the mix from imploding on itself . I don't understand all this digital stuff , but having to do that is werid to me as well . Shouldn't the software automatically fix stuff like this for you so you shouldn't have to Dither all the time ?
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Post by scumbum on Apr 22, 2017 22:19:25 GMT -6
Watching that just makes me miss the past generations . Each one brought its own magic and sound . The artwork on the walls , the music..........Then theres today ......2017....makes me feel depressed . From an art standpoint things really , really suck today . What a crappy time to grow up as a kid . Back then you had Elvis and Buddy Holly..today you have justin bieber and kanye west .
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Post by scumbum on Apr 22, 2017 12:38:43 GMT -6
"unless the mix engineer never changes gains or adds any plugins on the way to the summer"
So if you only use your computer as a "tape machine" , then you don't need to dither .
Sony Oxford Dynamics , or Sonnox Dynamics has 24 bit dither .
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