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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 15, 2024 18:50:14 GMT -6
If I ever got the chance to use a setup like Bill's, I imagine it would be a radically different experience and I'd have to learn what works and what doesn't. Could be. . All I know is that for me, there is no abandoning a true hybrid setup. There is MUCH more to mixing than just "sound" and sonics. Are you still using a lot of plugins? What's interesting is how hardware increases the dynamic range. The mix with the hardware-treated file was DR13 and the pure ITB mix was DR12. An experienced mastering guy once told me that the ITB mixes he received didn't really have much in the way of dynamics compared to hybrid or pure analog mixes he mastered. There was a few things I had to change up just adding these Shadow Hills plugins. The other thing with hybrid is that you have to be able to play the mix all the way through without the cpu running out of processing. So, I'm guessing most hybrid mixes are using something like AAX DSP or really efficient native stuff. If I recall, you've got a really great Pro Tools HD setup. A lot of times when I'm loading up instances of Satin, I'll be lucky if I can get five seconds of playback lol
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 14, 2024 18:38:39 GMT -6
I did a little experiment with this fan-made instrumental of Invaders by Iron Maiden that I recorded some vocals over years ago. One instrumental file had the Shadow Hills Green plugin and one the hardware. Opto and Discrete both on. Vocals just had the plugin on the mono tracks. Then I ran the hybrid mix and the ITB mix through the same hybrid master chain. What I found was that I could get a better balanced mix ITB and also compensate for the loss of the SH hardware on the instrumental track at the mastering stage. It sounded like the hardware was bringing a lot more transient energy than the plugin. Much more lively. Reminded me of what happens when you turn the input up on the SPL PQ plugin. And turning the PQ input up more on the ITB mix definitely allowed me to get that missing mojo back. But I did have to make a few different decisions in regard to balancing with the hybrid mix, so it wasn't a case of replacing the plugin with the hardware and using the same settings. What I'm finding is that the plugins generally preserve the signature character of what they're emulating. They're just tossing out a lot of the mojo. And I do find it significantly more challenging to blend hardware with plugins inside a mix.
If I ever got the chance to use a setup like Bill's, I imagine it would be a radically different experience and I'd have to learn what works and what doesn't. So, my approach at the moment is to observe what plugins and hardware bring to the table and find ways to make them compliment each other. It'd be interesting to really see what things cannot be compensated for.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 14, 2024 17:40:00 GMT -6
Has anyone here compared it with Satin? I just find that Satin outclasses all these other tape plugs. UAD Studer is not bad though and it does use a lot less cpu.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 14, 2024 1:53:45 GMT -6
If we're talking just the mixing stage:
Satin Dopamine Black Box MS PA 902 PA Green Shadow Hills
Because of this thread I tried the Shadow Hills on mono vocal tracks and it sounds a lot classier than the UAD 1176 Blue. Seems less peaky too. I had been using it on snares and instrumental tracks and gotten better results than the other compressors I was using lately.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 13, 2024 5:51:40 GMT -6
I hear there are people who buy legit software and then download cracked and hacked versions and use them instead . . . or so I've heard. They say the cracked versions work better. Less memory. There's still a few things I use that haven't been cracked. PA and Acustica protection are supposed to be the most intrusive and obstructive. I thought I left my Ilok 2 behind when I moved even though that and my flash drives were really important, so I got an Ilok3 before I found them in the suitcase. These were old suitcases I got at Goodwill that were not too intuitive in their designs. If my Ilok3 ever went down, does anyone here know if I could just erase and reuse the disabled Ilok2?
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 11, 2024 4:04:12 GMT -6
Ok.. I listened to these examples and think I can hear what dither is doing But I haven’t downloaded Mozzaik and tested on my own yet. Well.. first I noticed, the CD doesn’t sound great. Pretty mucked up. Probably cheap disk making these days. Next I noticed the HiRes sounds absolutely incredible. Piano and Rhodes(?) really sound great, cymbals full of air. So sad that the world refuses to admit higher res isn’t placebo. And make fun of bat ears etc when you try to mention it. What can you do. TPDF - I feel dynamics of the highs are similar to high res, so that’s nice. However the lows seem like they build up and push forward in a somewhat mucky way. Versus the HiRes it’s a little disappointing.. Mozzaik - I feel like the lows don’t get as mucked up as TPDF. So that is something welcome. The highs are less bright to me, less shine. So kind of opposite TPDF. I hope to do some tests soon My take away so far - I deal with this kind of frustration when I try to master things myself.. and now I guess I have to watch that Down sampling actually can and does screw up a great thing I think the hi-res thing matters most when the audio is coming from a DAW. On Tidal, if I listen to the 24-bit versions of classic albums and then a 16-bit of another classic, I don't feel like there's a real difference. But if it's a modern album done on a DAW, you definitely lose something in the conversion. So far, I've found that RX does the best job of not making it sound like the highs ran into a wall. Saracon has that issue. Converting 24 to 16 or 96k to 44k does compromise stuff done in a DAW for sure. And for the record, I'm only comparing high dynamic range versions of these older albums that somehow made it onto Tidal instead of remasters with all that unnecessary limiting. Stuff that's still in that DR12 category.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 9, 2024 19:57:59 GMT -6
Glad to hear you were able to get some quality care. You've shown you've got a lot of character and I'm very confident you'll tackle this.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 2, 2024 17:44:18 GMT -6
It's good that we investigate everything. As I understand it, this Mozzaik dither is a work in progress, so feedback here should be very useful. In comparing this with Good Dither last night, the Mozzaik can radically change the sound signature. Good Dither is pretty neutral, doesn't have an immediate wow factor or anything. What I'm finding now is that it gives me a lot more flexibility to adjust hardware and plugin settings. I was mainly using Maat Linpro for a while, and I don't recall being able to get away with cranking some things as much as I did last night with Good Dither on.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 1, 2024 3:39:50 GMT -6
I've saw this thread that viciousbliss started so I decided to put some thoughts. I like the sound of classical CDs recorded in 80s. I know that they used old equipment and measurements are not good as in modern electronics. Still I get amazed every time when I play these recordings on audio shows. I wanted to get that sound signature when listen to modern CDs. After more that 100 versions and one year of development and testing we came with this dither that has qualities that I like. That doesn't mean that other stuff is not good. I'm sure they are great. It is matter of preference and taste. Good to see you here Marko. So, it would be good for everyone to hear more about your approach here. It sounded unique. You mentioned noise shaping to me but it didn't sound like the usual problematic noise shaping we are used to. I've gone back and done some stuff all with Good Dither so I can do a more thorough comparison in just a bit. Are there specific classical recordings we should look at?
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 19, 2024 20:03:33 GMT -6
I listened to it first before going back and reading the original thread from a few months ago so that I wouldn't be looking for anything specific in the sound. Others came to the same conclusion that I did when using the previous work in progress version(which doesn't preserve the punch and highs as much the for sale one, but is still ahead of Linpro and Good Dither). I'm not sure if Mozzaik is using TPDF or something else. They were talking about 1980s classical cds being the epitome of quality or something. Dan, I'd love to get your take on this one. John, if the Hilo's headphone section is anything like the Aurora N's, the dither differences are very noticeable. If I recall, that applied to VSX as well as the K701. Mozzaik posted clips on GS and those results are the same as I got when bouncing files with Mozzaik vs Cedar or Linpro.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 19, 2024 16:23:50 GMT -6
These guys have been working on this for a while and just released the official version a couple weeks back. It's not in AAX though and they're looking for something like 27 Euros a year as a subscription-only model. Well, I tried their demo and stacked it up against Maat Linpro and Good Dither. The result is that it retains far more of the punch and high frequencies that get lost when losing bits. Against the dither in Cedar Adaptive Limiter 2, same thing. It's doing something so the sound stays about as open as it did at the higher bitrate. But I find that I prefer to use the Cedar to go to 16-bit as while it sounds less clear and less energetic, it's more musical and cohesive. Sorta like applying a compressor that compresses the highs a little. With the Cedar at 24-bit and Mozzaik set to 16-bit afterwards, I felt like it was too dynamic. But I need to test it some more. I'm using this at the end of ITB mixes and before the first hardware insert. For me, it mitigates the things I don't like about dither plugins quite well. mozzaik-audio.com/You have to email support@mozzaik-audio.com to get the 30 day trial.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 12, 2024 16:50:30 GMT -6
I went back to the Black Box MS on sub-mixes after finding that I needed more energy. Maybe something sounded a little off with the phase in what I was doing. Took off the Softube Trident on most things too. The Black Box MS makes it easier for things to blend and also cuts out a lot of that mud. I'm talking just using it at the default settings for the most part. What happened was I was having a lot of trouble getting this guy's vocals to fit. He had printed some fx on them that made it more of a challenge. Just putting the Black Box back on everything made it fit and got the energy back again. Was struggling way too much to get the song to vibe.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 11, 2024 18:26:19 GMT -6
The Hedd 192 is what Access Analog has in the Magic Garden chain. You should be able to try it for free. Otherwise it's like $100 an hour or something like that to use it. They also have a few things going through the Aurora N. You could always ask Dan or someone else at Access Analog what they think. The saturation in the 192 is quite good, probably one of the best. Are you going to want to use that saturation? If the Hilo's headphone out is on par with the Aurora N's, that's pretty valuable. What are the main saturation devices these days? Hedd, VSM-2, Overstayer MAS, Culture Vultures, Black Box, Looptrotter Sa2rate? Anything else? If I recall, our Dan said something was better in the Aurora N over the Hilo recently.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 5, 2024 17:20:27 GMT -6
You can compensate a lot for what plugins lack if you have access to a quality saturation device like a Cranesong Hedd or a VSM-2. Is the general consensus that the biggest differences between hardware and software occur in saturation devices? That's the line of thinking that I've been leaning towards. When I tried the Magic Garden chain at Access Analog, I wasn't feeling it much until I cranked the Hedd some. $12,000 Elysia Alpha didn't make as big a difference. Full, smooth, exciting, you really need quality saturation for that. The quality of the plugins you're using, how you use them, and the combinations you come up with all play a big role too. My mixes are much better since using the UAD Culture Vulture as a starting point on each sub-mix. But you take anything out of the chain and it's a big loss. The one thing I will say is that the hardware saturation really provides a dramatic enhancement to anything I run through it. Just took a demo from a band I used to do some work with over 15 years ago. Using some newer VSM-2 settings I came up with, and the quality is just radically better. This makes a bigger difference than the Fusion or any hardware comp I've tried. With eqs, I'll say it again. I think the PA SPL PQ set a new benchmark. I've also started using the PA Vitalizer just for the soft/tight bass control. If anyone wants to try hardware saturation, the Black Box and Culture Vulture 15 are usually pretty accessible at Access Analog. They may still be giving out some free time to try the Magic Garden chain too.
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 3, 2024 8:25:42 GMT -6
Anyone else prefer to use one comp and then use saturation type stuff to do the rest?
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 29, 2024 19:12:10 GMT -6
The Acme is my go to snare compressor. It makes them just sound big and punchy more than anything else I've tried. I'm sure everyone has read my comments on the SPL PQ plugin by now. Still blows my mind that I can't tell it apart from the hardware on sections of the song that hit both the plugin and the hardware at different points in the Audio Animals video if I close my eyes. I see that the hardware doesn't have an input knob like the software, so I'm guessing Paul was hitting it with enough level to get the sort of transient popping effect that another mastering guy told me about his hardware doing. The 902 is still what I use over other de-essers. The Vitalizer bass control for soft and tight functions very similarly to the one that Access Analog has, which is a different model. To me, that's very useful across a whole mix. There's a lot of good stuff at PA and maybe I'd use more if I weren't limited by cpu cycles. The Millenia stuff is good but I wish it was more tweakable, Focusrite, Townhouse, Unfiltered Audio, BX Opto, Bax Eq and Museq sounded very close to the hardware on Youtube, Lindell console is great but I don't have enough cpu to put it all over, Purple is pretty good if you want an 1176 with more bite, Sa2rate is decent, Phil's Cascade was pretty cool, there's a lot.
The VSM and Shadow Hills plugins are decent but pretty far off from the real thing. I've tried to get into the DSM but have never taken to it. The mono makers on these are very inferior to Basslane Pro according to Flotown Mastering. Whenever Access Analog allows us to use the Alpha separately I'd love to compare it with the plugin. There's only one comparison video out there that I know of and the guy told me he didn't use dither with the hardware if I recall. With PA it just depends on what you already have. They don't have an answer for a lot of stuff that I regularly use. Reverb is a weak area for them. Tapeface is ok but it's no Satin. I vastly prefer the Culture Vulture sound over the Black Box in hardware and plugin form. You could probably get by using nothing but PA plugins, but I imagine it'd be a lot more difficult than just being able to use everything you usually do.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 26, 2024 3:30:35 GMT -6
On the 500 series side of things, has anyone tried the Roger Mayer 456 units? Or the rack 456HD? I'm definitely curious about the Roger Mayer one too. I forget where I read it, maybe on Youtube comments for the Neve tape, but there definitely were people who think this one is a lot better.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 25, 2024 10:16:13 GMT -6
I had no idea they were going native. That would be great so that I don't have much of anything tying me to Pro Tools. The Hedd was pretty cool too when I tried the Magic Garden rig at Access Analog. Ya I read a rumor somewhere so emailed to see if it was true and Will at Cranesong said "Yes that is correct, we are only waiting on some small issues". Sounds cool enough. Tough call between Phoenix and Satin. The latter is definitely more airy with a wider soundstage. Phoenix is more technically perfect, more digital. Satin definitely introduces more distortion or whatever, sibilant type sounds. The music itself sounds more true to classic recordings with Phoenix, where the harsher frequencies are kinda washed out. There are things I like better about both. But I think I can find a way to set Phoenix in a way where I end up preferring it over Satin. Or maybe mixes where I used it will end up playing well with Fusion's vintage drive. Phoenix is missing all the hiss and other analog stuff. When doing the SRC to 44k from the 96k 16-bit file, it loses a lot of the highs through the RX7 SRC. I've found that to be the most accurate SRC for my tastes. The balance is a lot better on the original 96k file. I'm always trying to consider what will survive SRC better. But you know, when I do an SRC of hi-res albums I vastly prefer the original file. Whether it's an official hi-res download or someone's needledrop, I don't like what SRC does. Maybe I'll try Phoenix and back off the amount or use Luster instead of Dark Essence.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 25, 2024 8:41:28 GMT -6
I'm psyched the native versions of Phoenix II so it can be used outside of Pro Tools, it sounded like they were close when I emailed them back in November. Currently my favorite tape plugin is Ghz Tupe. There's a great video of the lead dev talking about his understanding of "the tape thing" from studying it for emulation. I had no idea they were going native. That would be great so that I don't have much of anything tying me to Pro Tools. The Hedd was pretty cool too when I tried the Magic Garden rig at Access Analog.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 25, 2024 6:24:26 GMT -6
Anyone here use Cranesong Phoenix? I decided to break it out and play around with it. I think I'm liking it better than Satin's Studer A800 GP9 preset now. Just using Dark Essence at 100 and then adjusting the other stuff to taste. It can get bigger and thicker than Satin while also sounding clearer. Dark Essence offers some pretty nice compression too. I'd never used it in mixes featuring Inspirata, UAD Culture Vulture, or UAD Harrison before. On cohesion/glue it's just as good as Satin. CPU is a lot better I'm sure.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 19, 2024 19:52:56 GMT -6
I'll second the Satin recommendation. It provides this sort of tape compression and cohesion that the others don't. Others meaning UAD Studer, Tapedesk, Softube Tape, Analog Channel, Cranesong Phoenix, Avid Reel Tape, IK Tape, Magnetite, Magnetic II, pretty much all the usual suspects. I don't use Satin with the 102 preset or the UAD 102 across my mixes anymore. When I run out of cpu cycles, I'll start putting Phoenix and Tapedesk on stuff like toms and kicks. I don't drive them much at all, so they don't end up mucking up my mixes. Adding Dopamine on tracks following Satin with the GP9 A800 preset and then Satin in Type A mode after Satin with the GP9 A800 preset again is what I've settled on for the moment. Dan is right that you have to gainstage it. Can you chart that last one out? It sounds interesting but I can’t tell how many instances you’re describing there. Two instances. Tracks: Satin A800 GP9 Dopamine A-Type Sub-Mixes/Busses: Satin A800 GP9 Satin Type A This is also a lot easier on the cpu than doing Satin Type A on tracks. Dopamine provides more punch, excitement, and compression than Satin's Type A.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 19, 2024 17:56:25 GMT -6
Some hardware and plugins are extremely close. Go watch the Audio Animals video for the SPL PQ hardware vs plugin. Other eqs like the Curve Bender are not close at all. The PQ plugin rivals the Massive Passive hardware whereas the Massive Passive plugins all fell quite short when I did my comparisons last year. I've compared the VSM-2 and VSM-3. The VSM-3 sounds nice but it comes across like a crude impersonation compared to the real thing. Early serial number Shadow Hills vs the plugins is not close at all either. Fusion plugins are also pretty way off for the most part. You can try stuff like Elysia Alpha and Cranesong Hedd as part of the Magic Garden Chain at Access Analog. That L2 hardware is set to have noise shaping on and you can ask them to turn it off. At the moment you can't use the chain's pieces separately but they told me we'll eventually be able to use the Alpha and others on their own. Do you guys dither before your first hardware insert? That makes an almost radical difference. If you haven't tried Maat Linpro, I'd be curious what you think after using it.
Plugins that I think you should try if you haven't would be: Overload Dopamine, Satin Tape, PA 902, SPL PQ, Softube Tube Tech MKII, UAD 480, Eventide SP2016, Softube Atlantis, UAD Culture Vulture, UAD Harrison, and UAD Cooper Timecube. Inspirata was said to be the closest to a Bricasti and I'd agree based on my comparison of it vs the Bricasti at Access Analog.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 19, 2024 17:42:49 GMT -6
I'll second the Satin recommendation. It provides this sort of tape compression and cohesion that the others don't. Others meaning UAD Studer, Tapedesk, Softube Tape, Analog Channel, Cranesong Phoenix, Avid Reel Tape, IK Tape, Magnetite, Magnetic II, pretty much all the usual suspects. I don't use Satin with the 102 preset or the UAD 102 across my mixes anymore. When I run out of cpu cycles, I'll start putting Phoenix and Tapedesk on stuff like toms and kicks. I don't drive them much at all, so they don't end up mucking up my mixes. Adding Dopamine on tracks following Satin with the GP9 A800 preset and then Satin in Type A mode after Satin with the GP9 A800 preset again is what I've settled on for the moment. Dan is right that you have to gainstage it.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 16, 2024 21:30:21 GMT -6
I've been going this route for a while. Just take the 44k mix and upsample to 96k and do the final moves there with a hardware compressor, fusion minus vintage drive, and saturator. Then chain some plugins like Basslane Pro, PQ, Silver Bullet, and Cedar Adaptive Limiter 2. If you've never tried the Cedar, that thing can be incredibly useful if a mix doesn't have the best balance. I've used it to solve issues with mixes done by other people. Cedar allows payments, so you don't have to cough up the full amount. To me, it's 10x more effective than Pro L2. These days we seem to get vinyl releases that have the full dynamics largely intact.
I'm not sure what they do for vinyl mastering, but the needledrop I heard of the new BOC record sounds very, very close to the unmastered mix Don posted a while back. I've been downloading a lot of other needledrops lately because so many albums just sound better at DR10-14 instead of DR4-8. People on forums claimed before that labels would just stick the low DR cd master onto a vinyl disc, but modern vinyl sounds like it came straight from a source with little 2bus processing. I guess that begs the question of what the aim of a lot of 2bus processing is. Cohesion? level? loads of compression and limiting? It may have been a full in bloom Randy Burns interview I was listening to where he said they tried to get stuff right while tracking so that mixing was about levels primarily. He was saying that ITB mixing is completely different from what he did with tape and consoles largely based on how he wouldn't be doing all this processing at the mix stage decades ago. From what I've read about mastering over the years, I guess that used to be a much simpler process too. Simpler meaning less processing. Albini also has that sort of philosophy, I think he called it "mix itself" by putting so much focus at the tracking stage.
I'll say again that using Satin on tracks and sub-mixes makes the cohesion thing much much easier, even against another tape plugin like Cranesong Phoenix. Using Dopamine for that Dolby Type A effect also adds some compression too. Satin in Type A mode is a little more pristine and clear-sounding with less of a compression effect, but cpu limitations don't allow me to use two instances of Satin on every track(or even one instance on everything at times). But Dopamine is still very usable if the recorded tracks are solid.
Another thing I'll reiterate is that I'm not a huge fan of all this 2bus processing. I've seen videos where someone has a 10 or 15 piece hardware or plugin chain and they bypass stuff one by one. A lot of the time, maybe most of the time, I preferred it with certain stuff bypassed. One could listen and see that they could just make a couple adjustments on the other pieces and leave the current bypassed piece on bypass and get a better result. It's very easy to take processing to excess.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 16, 2024 21:01:32 GMT -6
I do notice that some older Waves plugs sound better at 96, specifically distortion stuff like GTR. I also tend to mix at 96 just in case, but I will admit that’s just a weird superstitious thing I do for no good reason. But I definitely think recording at 96 sounds noticeably better. With my ADC, that is. Those older Waves plugins don't usually oversample. I've looked at the plugin counts for their Soundgrid servers. Some of those older plugs can get hundreds of instances on computers that don't have a lot of processing. The chips in those servers are really dated and even the one in the Extreme Server probably doesn't even have half the single core power of the best chips today. The multicore is probably 10x better at least. I've looked up the chips in those servers and compared them. Probably made some posts on here or GS where I wrote out the numbers. I'm gonna say those Soundgrid servers use chips that were not even top of the line a decade ago when the 6950x was king. You'll see with the newish Waves plugins like H-Reverb, the plugin counts on those servers are really low. The Extreme could maybe run 7 instances at best. While it could run something like 150 or 200 mono CLA76. With the newer ones, the instance count didn't change regardless of sample rate. But with the older ones, you'll see that you get something like twice as many instances at 44k.
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