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Post by jeromemason on May 30, 2019 14:12:25 GMT -6
I always say stand on the shoulders of giants and make something great fit the modern times. Putting in the circuit to drive the unit wouldn't be massive, but it's really not as easy as the plugin. They can just copy and paste another eq, take a tap from the output of EQ1, code in a blend circuit of EQ2 overdriven and that's it. As just shown above, when you start to throw things on circuits, electricity etc. reacts. But, with that said, you'd just take a tap off the output and put in a knob that's basically a blend knob on the end of the output of the eq overdriven. That would be how I would setup a "character" knob. I'm not sure how you'd do that in the analog domain. If you're overdriving the EQ, you're overdriving it. So the only thing left to blend in is the original signal, like a wet/dry mixer. If I was gonna do it for this application, I'd add a discrete +12 dB stage with a trimpot afterwards, so you can go from +12 dB to -12 dB. But you do this, you immediately lose 12 dB of headroom. That suddenly matters if you're trying to take an already hot track and shove that bax shelf up 15 dB... I would take a tap from the output and build another gain stage, overdrive it and just have the blend knob. Now, I'm not sure how they go about doing this in the plugin, they can basically do whatever they want. I guess if it were me and I was designing something like this I would use the original for inspiration but design the whole circuit to do the things we're talking about here. A lot of work! But, be cool eq for snare/guitars for sure.
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Post by matt@IAA on May 30, 2019 14:28:08 GMT -6
I gotcha, you'd overdrive post EQ. That's going to be totally different than overdriving the EQ though.
What you're describing is what I usually try to do for Iron Age stuff. But for this guy, it's kind of elegantly inelegant. Not a beautiful design like Ruper Neve's or Saul Walker's stuff. It's a bit clunky... but I think that's kind of what makes it cool.
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Post by jeromemason on May 30, 2019 14:44:56 GMT -6
You could almost say that doing a post eq drive circuit is adding flavor or "character" to the eq as a whole. I have no idea if they overdrive the entire eq on the Sie emu.... they could be doing exactly what I'm talking about. What I know is, that on a snare drum and electric guitar I HPF/LPF and then put something like JST Clip after it..... That makes everything just sound better, bigger. It's how we've had to start mixing in order to get things to fit and have a sound but not eat up a shitload of bandwidth from eq'n everything. That's what I myself am getting away from, the less eq I can use and the more overdrive and such, the better. So you make an eq that has a good sound to it, add in modern day features and say "here you go, great sounding eq that can do all kinds of cool things." In the end no one is going to care if it's a direct copy of the original eq, they just like it sounds awesome and has features.
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Post by matt@IAA on May 30, 2019 15:04:09 GMT -6
So you make an eq that has a good sound to it, add in modern day features and say "here you go, great sounding eq that can do all kinds of cool things." In the end no one is going to care if it's a direct copy of the original eq, they just like it sounds awesome and has features. I genuinely don't know if that is true - not saying you're wrong. For every guy that says "it'd be cool if it..." you have another guy who says "yeah but I want a W295b". It's kind of why I have Made A Solemn Vow to not clone stuff. You get all into "when is a clone a clone". It is pretty darn clear that clones sell. So I guess the question is how much tweaking can you do before you're cashing in on calling something a W295b that isn't a W295b at all. I try to sidestep all that jazz. I don't name my products after things, I try not to sell by referencing other stuff, and I don't make 'em look like other stuff. And know I sell fewer products for it! haha this isn’t to disparage the guys who make clones at all. I just don’t want to even try, because I don’t want the massive headache / labor of love that comes with the territory of trying to get every detail just so. Anyway, I love custom work. Chris from Barbaric is a partner of Iron Age and we designed together a blend box called the Mongrel - high voltage tube overdrive with a wet/dry mixer. You want me to make you a buzz and blend?
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Post by matt@IAA on May 31, 2019 10:32:35 GMT -6
jacobamerritt jamiesego lpedrum the other mark williams mulmany Original faceplate is (top to bottom) treble, bass, presence frequence, presence gain. Many EQs are treble, mid, bass. Most of the emulator UIs are (left to right) bass, mid, treble. Which way you want the 500 series (vertical)? I did two layouts: Treble, Mid gain, Mid frequency, bass or Treble, Bass, Mid Frequency, Mid Gain And which way would you want the 1RU (horizontal)? I laid it out Treble, Mid gain, Mid frequency, bass to start
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Post by jamiesego on May 31, 2019 11:40:01 GMT -6
The first option makes more sense for 500 series. For horizontal I think it would be fine to go either way.
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Post by audioscape on Jun 1, 2019 14:36:31 GMT -6
So this is the easy part. The hard part is finding the appropriate output transformer. This would make for a KILLER 500-series EQ! Great job, as always
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 1, 2019 17:29:10 GMT -6
jacobamerritt jamiesego lpedrum the other mark williams mulmany Original faceplate is (top to bottom) treble, bass, presence frequence, presence gain. Many EQs are treble, mid, bass. Most of the emulator UIs are (left to right) bass, mid, treble. Which way you want the 500 series (vertical)? I did two layouts: Treble, Mid gain, Mid frequency, bass or Treble, Bass, Mid Frequency, Mid Gain And which way would you want the 1RU (horizontal)? I laid it out Treble, Mid gain, Mid frequency, bass to start First just seams more intuitive to me
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Post by peterhess on Jun 3, 2019 17:23:33 GMT -6
I would snatch up a pair. I love the Sie-Q too, it’s got a great thing it does. Nobody knows the Schult stuff, huh? It’s not too pricey, tempted to give it a shot... I tend to use the Sie-Q on mono sources, especially woodwinds, so just a single slot would be useful... but mark me down for a pair if you decide to go it on these!
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Post by Guitar on Jun 3, 2019 18:24:49 GMT -6
I like the SieQ a lot too. I don't have a favorite source or anything, just think it's a great EQ/saturator. I think acoustic guitar was a particularly good one.
This thread is really exciting to me, I love watching this design process. Makes me feel smarter LOL.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 3, 2019 20:23:53 GMT -6
I went ahead and ordered pcbs for the 500 series, and I’m building a prototype input stage to send to Cinemag for a little bit of testing.
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 3, 2019 21:27:17 GMT -6
I went ahead and ordered pcbs for the 500 series, and I’m building a prototype input stage to send to Cinemag for a little bit of testing. Yes!
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Post by lpedrum on Jun 3, 2019 21:30:24 GMT -6
This thread is really exciting to me, I love watching this design process. Makes me feel smarter LOL. I love it when RGO is like being part of a great company--somebody has a good idea and the boss says "Send it down to R&D and make it happen."
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 4, 2019 15:24:49 GMT -6
Anyone else in for a rackmount version? I don't have any 500 series stuff... The only think that could take this to the next level is a Siemens channel strip - 72 style with a w295 EQ section??
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 4, 2019 20:56:02 GMT -6
Anyone else in for a rackmount version? I don't have any 500 series stuff... The only think that could take this to the next level is a Siemens channel strip - 72 style with a w295 EQ section?? If the prototype works a rack mount is no problem. I think the appropriate mic pre would be a V276. The problem with that circuit is it’s an 11 position 6 deck switch for gain! I could probably come up with something, though. Again, original Haufe or whatever transformers are unobtanium. The 40-80-120 filter with an inductor could be eliminated as well. Anyway. One thing at a time.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 6, 2019 3:55:56 GMT -6
Man, the V276 has a ton of gain. The unit is two gain blocks, the first a three transistor with stepped feedback combined with emitter resistor variation to give ~40 dB gain control. The output block has a variable feedback that gives ~10dB more control. I'm fiddling with the thing a little. I think I'm leaving out altogether the inductor HPF (it's a really odd / novel configuration) and the radio broadcast LPF. Nice and clean. But I'm left wondering - does anyone want 76 dB of gain (variable up to 86!) these days?
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Post by kevinnyc on Jun 6, 2019 5:07:25 GMT -6
I’m in for a pair....or two.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 6, 2019 5:26:14 GMT -6
Man, the V276 has a ton of gain. The unit is two gain blocks, the first a three transistor with stepped feedback combined with emitter resistor variation to give ~40 dB gain control. The output block has a variable feedback that gives ~10dB more control. I'm fiddling with the thing a little. I think I'm leaving out altogether the inductor HPF (it's a really odd / novel configuration) and the radio broadcast LPF. Nice and clean. But I'm left wondering - does anyone want 76 dB of gain (variable up to 86!) these days? I’ve got 6 of the Tele/Siemens V676a modules in a big old rack I put together. They’ve also got the odd 3 position hpf which can actually sometimes be useful. 10db stepper gain control is actually relay controlled on these which is some serious over engineering haha. They also have a line in position with 10db Of gain at hand. Badass preamps that are somewhat clean but still have some serious mojo!
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 6, 2019 6:55:05 GMT -6
Man, the V276 has a ton of gain. The unit is two gain blocks, the first a three transistor with stepped feedback combined with emitter resistor variation to give ~40 dB gain control. The output block has a variable feedback that gives ~10dB more control. I'm fiddling with the thing a little. I think I'm leaving out altogether the inductor HPF (it's a really odd / novel configuration) and the radio broadcast LPF. Nice and clean. But I'm left wondering - does anyone want 76 dB of gain (variable up to 86!) these days? I’ve got 6 of the Tele/Siemens V676a modules in a big old rack I put together. They’ve also got the odd 3 position hpf which can actually sometimes be useful. 10db stepper gain control is actually relay controlled on these which is some serious over engineering haha. They also have a line in position with 10db Of gain at hand. Badass preamps that are somewhat clean but still have some serious mojo! The 676s are different than the 276. I was using the 276 because of the similarity in circuit to the 295. It’s no difficulty to put in a HPF - it’s not the HPF I find odd, it’s the way Siemens chose to do it with the inductor. I don’t have an inductor value so I’m trying to back into it but I’m not really happy with what I’m getting. An RC filter would be a lot easier. On the 276 the 10 dB adjust is continuously variable 0-10.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 6, 2019 12:14:15 GMT -6
I’ve got 6 of the Tele/Siemens V676a modules in a big old rack I put together. They’ve also got the odd 3 position hpf which can actually sometimes be useful. 10db stepper gain control is actually relay controlled on these which is some serious over engineering haha. They also have a line in position with 10db Of gain at hand. Badass preamps that are somewhat clean but still have some serious mojo! The 676s are different than the 276. I was using the 276 because of the similarity in circuit to the 295. It’s no difficulty to put in a HPF - it’s not the HPF I find odd, it’s the way Siemens chose to do it with the inductor. I don’t have an inductor value so I’m trying to back into it but I’m not really happy with what I’m getting. An RC filter would be a lot easier. On the 276 the 10 dB adjust is continuously variable 0-10. Posts like this make me feel insecure and jealous of people with brains good at science and electricity and stuff.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 6, 2019 12:54:37 GMT -6
Dude, it's just magic. Nobody understands this stuff. Some people just use fancy words for things. If you say "sparky blue magic" you sound like an idiot...if you say electricity you sound smart. What's impedance? no one really knows. They just have a word for a magic thing. Anyone tells you otherwise is lying!
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Post by Guitar on Jun 6, 2019 12:58:27 GMT -6
Dude, it's just magic. Nobody understands this stuff. Some people just use fancy words for things. If you say "sparky blue magic" you sound like an idiot...if you say electricity you sound smart. What's impedance? no one really knows. They just have a word for a magic thing. Anyone tells you otherwise is lying! I've always been mystified and in awe of electricity in general so I agree 100%
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Post by peterhess on Jun 6, 2019 17:46:43 GMT -6
In the magical words of Steve Martin, “The tingle means it’s working!”
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,809
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2019 6:36:42 GMT -6
In the magical words of Steve Martin, “The tingle means it’s working!” He was wrong! I feel that tingle almost 24/7 and that thumb still isn’t there 20 years later!
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 7, 2019 10:41:01 GMT -6
Ok, I have the W276 schematic to my liking. Just need to work out the gain ladder values. Since I'm redoing it, I'll use a 12 position switch instead of the original 11, and gain will be stepped from 30-70 dB, with an additional 0-10 dB variable. The gain switch simplification removes the input padding on the lowest levels, so I'll put a single input pad, and add +48V control as well.
I have it set up where the broadcast LPF and HPF are individually switched in. HPF is selectable to 40/80/130 using a Carnhill VTB9043 inductor.
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