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Post by shakermaker on May 5, 2019 20:04:57 GMT -6
I wanna buy an ampex 350, of course they are few and far between ... and leads on one? Or what would be a comparable machine - I know of a ampex 440b that is available. As you can guess, I'm looking for the opposite of transparent, would the 440b a comparable option?
What about the mara machines?
thanks!
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Post by johneppstein on May 5, 2019 20:57:33 GMT -6
I wanna buy an ampex 350, of course they are few and far between ... and leads on one? Or what would be a comparable machine - I know of a ampex 440b that is available. As you can guess, I'm looking for the opposite of transparent, would the 440b a comparable option? What about the mara machines? thanks! If you're looking for "the opposite of transparent" the Mara machines are not for you. You should probaly buy a old consumer Teac or Roberts/Akai- or one of those awful consumer Ampex branded machines that was full of wobbly belts*. The Mara machines are rebuilt totally to above original spec and are very hi-fi. Perhaps not quite as much as my Studer, but very close. (I also own an MCI JH1210 with the 1/4" 2 track head set but 4 channel electronics that's (slowly) being rebuilt that I intend to eventually use as a mixdown machine. They're pretty great machines (with a few notorious drawbacks), but they're pretty much the antithesis of what you say you want.
The 350 is not quite in the same class as the newer machines, but it's still a professional machine and in good operating condition should not be "the opposite of transparent." Many of the world's most renouned classical and jazz recordings were done on Ampex 350 series machines.
* - no, I don't actually recommend any of those, but "the opposite of transparent" is not what real professional machines are about. Sadly, a lot of younger recordists have never experioenced a professional tape recorder in good opoerating condition and there is a whole mountain of BS on the internet about the qualities of tape - much of it propogated by software coders trying to sell "tape sims". I've never been able to understand why anyone would want to do a simulation of a broken machine.
Real pro machines do definitely impart a sound, but I would never call it "the opposite of transparent".
EDIT - It's Cinco De Mayo, so please cut me a little slack with the rhetoric!
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Post by mhbunch on May 5, 2019 21:34:54 GMT -6
Having used/heard many machines (Studer, 3m, ampex, tascam, etc) I’ve come to the conclusion that a perfectly working and reliable tape machine is the best sounding. Change tape formula and buss compression/line amps for flavor.
My Otari mx5050 makes me happy because I don’t worry about it not turning on or the rewind stops working or it needs to be recapped or etc etc.
Older machines (60s/70s) are a constant pain in the ass from my experience.
That said there’s a 4track ampex w Inovonics 355 units for sale locally I’m thinking of ignoring reason and checking out. The ampex machines do sound amazing *when* they are working.
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Post by shakermaker on May 6, 2019 6:30:50 GMT -6
Haha all good ! Cinco De Mayo away, all feed back is appreciated
maybe my opposite of transparent comment was a bit much, but rather something that will impart a sound. I do understand its not some magic voodoo box that will change everything, but I have a zulu and want the real thing now. As a hobbyist recorder that doesn't do this for a living and just record myself/friends i think it would be fun (famous last words ha) to learn how to track on one as well.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 6, 2019 6:41:37 GMT -6
A old Ampex has defined tone, you either love it or hate it. Unless you have used an old machine I wouldn’t just jump in, using an old machine isn’t like driving an Otari. It’s all about condition, condition, condition and it’s the condition of the heads that really counts. You need a head repot to tell you the what you’ve got, if an “expert says he can judge the condition by looking at them, you know he isn’t an expert.
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Post by shakermaker on May 6, 2019 8:51:50 GMT -6
Gotcha, great advice ericn ... that post may have helped me from jumping the gun a bit if condition can't be properly assessed. It seems like they come up so rarely there may be some inherent risk regardless though. Gotta play to win lol ... I am scouting local(ish) techs that can be an asset to this venture when it will inevitably need repairs or restoration. In fact the whole process might hinge on finding someone trust worthy that is available to help restore/maintain. As eager as I am to learn im well aware its new uncharted territory from my apollo interfaces
I have the recording the beatles hardcover book and see that th J37 is a tube based machine so thought the ampex 350 might be a similar sound, which is what I am after. Clearly J37s are almost never available
thanks!
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Post by shakermaker on May 6, 2019 9:03:33 GMT -6
damn there's 2 J37s on ebay right now ... about a down payment for a house, but they are available haha
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Post by svart on May 6, 2019 9:25:53 GMT -6
I wanna buy an ampex 350, of course they are few and far between ... and leads on one? Or what would be a comparable machine - I know of a ampex 440b that is available. As you can guess, I'm looking for the opposite of transparent, would the 440b a comparable option? What about the mara machines? thanks! If you're looking for "the opposite of transparent" the Mara machines are not for you. You should probaly buy a old consumer Teac or Roberts/Akai- or one of those awful consumer Ampex branded machines that was full of wobbly belts*. The Mara machines are rebuilt totally to above original spec and are very hi-fi. Perhaps not quite as much as my Studer, but very close. (I also own an MCI JH1210 with the 1/4" 2 track head set but 4 channel electronics that's (slowly) being rebuilt that I intend to eventually use as a mixdown machine. They're pretty great machines (with a few notorious drawbacks), but they're pretty much the antithesis of what you say you want.
The 350 is not quite in the same class as the newer machines, but it's still a professional machine and in good operating condition should not be "the opposite of transparent." Many of the world's most renouned classical and jazz recordings were done on Ampex 350 series machines.
* - no, I don't actually recommend any of those, but "the opposite of transparent" is not what real professional machines are about. Sadly, a lot of younger recordists have never experioenced a professional tape recorder in good opoerating condition and there is a whole mountain of BS on the internet about the qualities of tape - much of it propogated by software coders trying to sell "tape sims". I've never been able to understand why anyone would want to do a simulation of a broken machine.
Real pro machines do definitely impart a sound, but I would never call it "the opposite of transparent".
EDIT - It's Cinco De Mayo, so please cut me a little slack with the rhetoric!
I went to a Mara Machines demo a few weeks ago when he came through town. Nice enough guy even though he was obviously displeased when I talked about my Tascam tape machine.. I mean it was billed as a 'tips-n'-tricks meet and greet' (my paraphrase), but I knew it was a sales pitch going into it.. But he didn't seem to want to talk about anything that wasn't his machines. Anyway, he brought a 2 track machine of some type, Studer 820 I think, and it was very, very clean sounding even by Studer standards. Slight softness in the highs, a bit of a bump in the lows, but nothing drastic at all. Very nicely rebuilt and probably worth the money to someone. But we're in total agreement for once, good tape on a properly aligned machine doesn't sound anything like the "tape saturation" plugins. They sound like you have a poorly aligned machine or are using the wrong bias for the tape and/or are hitting it way too hard, and even then it's probably more to do with saturating the track amps or the headstacks than the actual tape. |
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Post by christopher on May 6, 2019 10:59:59 GMT -6
save your money wherever possible because to get an old pro tape machine to truthful “works like new” status, it could require a down payment on a house unfortunately. If someone already did the work, that might hopefully save you a ton of time and frustration though. You’ll want to make sure they checked all the boxes:
- need to check/ rebuild the PSU with new filter caps and check that all connections are clean solders, connectors are functioning well and voltage is flawless. If this isn’t done, the machine can have a ton of random problems as old parts could get incorrect voltages, it might work ok for a while before parts blow.
- the motor caps should be replaced. They are expensive and last a long time, so some people might not replace them until they totally die. You don’t want them to die during a session.
- the bias oscillator needs to be checked and verified to work flawlessly at all levels. Ideally rebuilt with new caps. Bias is required to erase the tape, as well as get good S/N.
- same with the capstan circuit and reel motor circuits and tension controller circuits
- the tension is usually sensed with a part in the tape path connected to something like a potentiometer that varies resistance depending on how much tension is on the tape. That ‘potentiometer’ can get dirty or intermittent, so you want to make sure its working flawlessly at all extremes and connectors are all flawless otherwise tape speed might be all over the pace.
- the brakes and tape sensors should work well and engage at the the proper time, or you’ll be getting mini heart attacks when the reels won’t stop and will be slapping tape on everything. Not the end of the world, just embarrassing.
- the pinch roller and capstan should be in good condition with enough tacky feeling to pull tape without slipping. There are guys who can re-rubber pinch rollers.
- the motors will need a few drops of oil. For example Studer requires very specific oil, using the wrong oil can ruin bearings, so check for your brand’s type.
- tape heads should have some life, ideally relapped with a nice curved apex where the tape touches the heads. If the heads have a worn flat top that’s typical it just means they could use another relap, and it will somewhat affect frequency response. Some heads are so worn with a flat top that a relap isn’t possible: game over. I’ve read second-hand accounts that a studer engineer claimed that the typical worn head flat-top is cause for the famous non-linear ‘head bumps’ in the low frequencies. When the heads are lapped factory fresh with a rounded apex, the response is flat- again according to second-hand info.
Those are the main places to address that make machines unusable. So if you spend a lot, they better have done all this. Other than that it’s the less typical and other random issues that happen.
When it comes to installing and using a machine, there’s a whole other set of checklists to go through. Like before turning on, some say to leave it plugged in for a day or two to let the PSU caps get some charge. Probably good advice. Also before adjusting the tape tension and all the audio channels and stuff, I power up and let it warm all the way up to operating temp. Usually a couple hours. The old components might drift with temperature. Some machines suffer more than others. Old tube machines and early discrete machines I’d expect to suffer from a lot of temperature drift? Something to consider and maybe partly why we don’t see too many 60s machines, got to let them warm *all* the way up then dial them in. Maybe after every time you power cycle?
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Post by shakermaker on May 6, 2019 11:56:49 GMT -6
Wow! Thanks for the detailed reply christopher, I appreciate all the info, def saving that for reference ... the dark depths of this journey are now staring to crystallize a bit more haha
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Post by christopher on May 6, 2019 13:17:39 GMT -6
Editing this, I don’t want come across as preaching so I apologize for that, it’s just there’s a lot of mind blowing tech info I’ve learned when all I wanted was some good tape recordings. Heh.
A big thing to understand that was kind of mentioned when I got into this but nobody really stressed is it’s important to look at the early tape machines as giant heat sinks. They need to reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient room temp, and ideally are supposed to have ventilation above them to chimney out the heat. Once at full thermal equilibrium, you can dial them in and they will probably stay perfectly stable and reliable for as long as you leave it on. In the big record contract days they might have operated around the clock and never turn them off. Some studios might have left them on for months or years, never a problem. They also had techs. We don’t have that luxury, and it’s not recommended to do this, we don’t have paid staff there 24/7 to notice a fault like the studios and broadcast places did. So when we use tape these days, it’s a commitment and ritual each time you turn it on. Let it reach thermal equilibrium, then adjust the tensions, azimuth, bias settings, etc.
Think of an analog synth: you turn it on and tune it. Then 10 minutes later, tune it again. Keeps going out of tune until the whole thing is hot to touch, then finally it starts to stay in tune.
That’s how I think of older tape machines. The mid-late 70s and newer they were more turn-on and play since the tape speed is from a crystal clock IC not discrete transistors... though it probably still benefits from some warming up. Sorry for the info overload... Good luck!!!
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Post by shakermaker on May 7, 2019 8:09:27 GMT -6
No man all good! Preach away haha, that insight is invaluable and I really appreciate it. Re-alligning how I should be thinking about these things. Like I said, it being a project and more on the temperamental side is fine for me, bc i dont have the expectation its going to be some studio work horse with consistent uptime. More of a wow, museum piece that would be a never ending project and could get used when its suited. Really interesting info about the thermal requirements , had not even thought of that ... in my recording the beatles book you see lots of those employees in lab coats in backgrouds, prob keeping on top of what you described. time was money right? haha im hoping to build out a new space when I move and we got an endless supply of cold air 8 months of the year here in canada, could make a little machine/tape room with good ventilation  eally interesting stuff. I think i might go for the 351 card on the ATS-1 first (if i can even track one of those down), and keep ear close to the ground for a real ampex in coming years. Get more educated about them in the meantime. thanks again for the info! |
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Post by ericn on May 7, 2019 8:29:34 GMT -6
If I was starting with tape today, I would probably try to grab an Otari 5050 4 track, many were in situations where they were well maintained and it will let you multi track and also can be used as a mastering deck with DAW dumps. Don’t forget the alignment tape and budget for maintenance.
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Post by EmRR on May 7, 2019 9:39:34 GMT -6
damn there's 2 J37s on ebay right now ... about a down payment for a house, but they are available haha There are unobtainium parts on J37's. That's enough to keep me away forever. I know a guy who had one sitting around for years, unable to get it fixed. |
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Post by christopher on May 8, 2019 1:30:05 GMT -6
im hoping to build out a new space when I move and we got an endless supply of cold air 8 months of the year here in canada, could make a little machine/tape room with good ventilation eally interesting stuff. I think i might go for the 351 card on the ATS-1 first (if i can even track one of those down), and keep ear close to the ground for a real ampex in coming years. Get more educated about them in the meantime. thanks again for the info! Wow. I'm feeling pretty sad today. Your comment made me go look up the guy who taught me most of what I learned about thermals and Studer A80's in general, a guy who had his studio in Canada,... in a quanset hut no less! He was able to leave his A80VU on 24/7 taking advantage of the Canadian climate and he said it was a very reliable machine for as long as he had it, performing great for decades. He used to be a regular fixture on a studer mailing list I was a part of, but a few years ago he just stopped posting - like a lot of people. I figured he gave up tape, or really I thought more likely that his machine died. But today I learned it wasn't his machine, it was he who passed away in March 2015. Damnit! Robert Seagrove was a real help to me, I mean a sincerely nice guy. The type of people you find around here, always ready to help the newbie out, with hands-on experience on the most expensive stuff available, and could convey the important info. He was the first to show the world how to align a multitrack tape recorder on youtube, he uploaded a video in 2012 that he had made back in 2005 with a little bit of feedback from the genius Jay McNight himself (ampex/the guy who makes MRL tapes!). So really, thanks to Robert for sharing his info that I can pass on to someone new. |
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Post by ericn on May 8, 2019 7:01:19 GMT -6
im hoping to build out a new space when I move and we got an endless supply of cold air 8 months of the year here in canada, could make a little machine/tape room with good ventilation eally interesting stuff. I think i might go for the 351 card on the ATS-1 first (if i can even track one of those down), and keep ear close to the ground for a real ampex in coming years. Get more educated about them in the meantime. thanks again for the info! Wow. I'm feeling pretty sad today. Your comment made me go look up the guy who taught me most of what I learned about thermals and Studer A80's in general, a guy who had his studio in Canada,... in a quanset hut no less! He was able to leave his A80VU on 24/7 taking advantage of the Canadian climate and he said it was a very reliable machine for as long as he had it, performing great for decades. He used to be a regular fixture on a studer mailing list I was a part of, but a few years ago he just stopped posting - like a lot of people. I figured he gave up tape, or really I thought more likely that his machine died. But today I learned it wasn't his machine, it was he who passed away in March 2015. Damnit! Robert Seagrove was a real help to me, I mean a sincerely nice guy. The type of people you find around here, always ready to help the newbie out, with hands-on experience on the most expensive stuff available, and could convey the important info. He was the first to show the world how to align a multitrack tape recorder on youtube, he uploaded a video in 2012 that he had made back in 2005 with a little bit of feedback from the genius Jay McNight himself (ampex/the guy who makes MRL tapes!). So really, thanks to Robert for sharing his info that I can pass on to someone new. I feel for you, I don’t know how many times I have tried to reach out to an old resource only to find they have left us. The price of growing old, my grandfather once told me the worst part was when you not only had out lived your friends , but also their children. |
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Post by christopher on May 8, 2019 11:34:55 GMT -6
Thanks Eric. Ahhh... if there's positive take away, its that he was able to enjoy his Neve +Studer +u47 +vintage guitar and amps for years.
... I'll have to make a thread elsewhere and show off some of his talents.
Back to the OP, I think doing what he did in Canada would be pretty nice, keep the studio warm as long as the electric bills are ok.
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 15, 2019 14:44:19 GMT -6
Hey Guys! just a little bump on this ... I ended up finding and securing a 10/10 condition Ampex 351 from an antique dealer - original cases, original manual... everything. It was a collectors and had been stored perfectly in a closet for 35+ years. The condition is unreal... So i pulled the trigger. Gotta play to win - Stoked to get it here - i'll follow up with some pics / vids when it arrives. Thanks to all the insight provided in this thread, I prioritized condition and I think its safe to say I might have stumbled across one of the best ampex 351s out there condition wise. I'm still in shock lol - it probably belongs in a museum What do you think after reading the description? -------- Here is a beautiful vintage Ampex 351-2, 1/4" Reel to Reel Tape Recorder with two per-amplifiers, Hard Cases, original Manual, two original NAB adapters, one original 10.5" take-up reel, and one 10.5 original Ampex magnetic tabe with matching Ampex reel. This entire outfit came out of a high-end Estate Auction. The previous owner, just a private individual, liked high-end, quality products, and had this tape recorder in a closet. It must have spent the last 35 plus years in that closet as everything shows very little signs of use. The instruction manual has some notes in it, but other than that, everything is in mint condition. Even the two cases outside have no scuffs from being moved around. I have never seen a clean machine like this one; these machines were bought by studios and heavily used and not just put in storage... Please note that it is very difficult to take pictures of shiny objects; the blue color and red color on the face plate of the transport and the two pre-amplifiers are just reflections. There are absolutely no scratches on the face plates. The 351 tape deck is known to have motor start capacitors which over time leak a black tarr like substance which will flow slowly over time out of the cylindrical metal enclosures. The stuff is sticky and messy. There are three of these capacitors in the transport unit, one for each motor. To keep the deck all original, I cleaned each enclosure to the bone and refilled the voids inside with a stable black resin instead of simply replacing the capacitors. This should last for ever and never cause any future problems. Technical data: frequency Response 30 to 15,000 cycles +/- 2 db @ 15 ips, signal to Noise separation 55 db, speed 15 and 30 ips, motors 3, max reel size 10.5 inch, timing accuracy 0.15% rms @15 ips, weight transport case 58 lb, case with per-amplifiers 36 lb. This stereo recorder has been tested and works perfect. All the tubes have been tested with my TV-7B/U tube tester and all tubes test well over the 100% emission value. Everything is in excellent cosmetic and working condition as shown. Both Mic pre-amplifiers have Input transformers Cat. No. 58-0022. Heads show little wear, see pictures # 6-10. All interconnect cabling is complete as well. There is even an extension cable for the remote control which was available to remote control the functions of the transport unit. These remote controls show up on eBay occasionally if you need one. The transport is System Serial Number 0930107, Cat No. 30810-01, the preamps are Serial # 4'084 & 4'078 Cat No. 30960-01 & 30960-03 and the case is Model # 351-2, Ser # 12'007, Cat. No. 30810-03. There is an additional tag, see picture #20, with the info: CAT.NO. 02-30970-01; SCHEMA 84-0079; CONT.NO. 20512. The two tube pre-amplifiers come loaded with killer vintage Telefunken (six 12AX7), RCA's (two 6X4, two 12AU7, and two 6201), and Sylvania (two 12AU7) tubes included. The transport case measures about 20 by 18 by 15-3/8 inches and weighs 71 lbs. The Preamp case measures about 21 by 17 by 12 inches and weighs 51 lbs. This will make a wonderful addition to any museum or anyone's collection. This entire outfit came out of a high-end Estate Auction. The previous owner, just a private individual, liked high-end, quality products, and had this tape recorder in a closet. It must have spent the last 35 plus years in that closet as everything shows very little signs of use. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 15, 2019 16:10:55 GMT -6
Seems like you got lucky BIG time: enjoy!
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 16, 2019 10:41:29 GMT -6
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 16, 2019 10:58:39 GMT -6
Beautiful. Congrats! Interesting it has 4 heads! Erase, record, repro, and... what, sync? |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 16, 2019 13:36:55 GMT -6
Beautiful. Congrats! Interesting it has 4 heads! Erase, record, repro, and... what, sync? Half track playback and quarter track playback I would guess. The extra quarter track head would allow playback of tapes recorded by or for consumer machines. |
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