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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 28, 2019 7:30:43 GMT -6
There are some basics here that are unavoidable if you want to get close to that sound. Most likely that’s a Martin, the big low end is the giveaway. Next, the tracks were usually done with what are now vintage Neumann’s, U67’s and one of their SDC’s. Next, you have natural bleed in both mics from singing and playing at the same time, and the mics are not that close. After that, other less important but not unimportant factors add to the overall effect. A good sounding room, engineers with serious experience choosing and placing mics, natural reverb and an all analog signal path.
One thing not mentioned, Dylan works the mics masterfully, including the guitar mic. Last but not least, Dylan is fearless about his singing, he goes for it 100% and that urgency is felt.
My advice, get a nice D24, a KM84 and a U87 or 67, put the mics 24” from the source and let the performer lean in when necessary, and you’re 90% there or more.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 28, 2019 8:54:55 GMT -6
I’ve never done a Gibson vs Martin shootout, that would be fun! I have the necessary equipment, just need to experiment with mic distance. And I’m certainly trying Silk & Steel strings!
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Post by damoongo on Apr 28, 2019 9:42:32 GMT -6
The angle on that 77 is interesting, makes me suspect it’s a posed shot. Aren’t they just trying to better rejection?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2019 10:33:10 GMT -6
The angle on that 77 is interesting, makes me suspect it’s a posed shot. Aren’t they just trying to better rejection? Makes little difference, and at that angle you've rolled off most of the highs. You'd turn the mic at 90º if you were keeping highs and going for rejection in figure 8, and if you were going for figure 8 you'd pick a BK-11 or 44 over a 77.
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Post by damoongo on Apr 28, 2019 11:07:01 GMT -6
The 47 in the other photo is similarly angled... Same art director? Maybe the 77 is in close enough that it's actually on axis when he's standing in his spot. Just the angle of attack is pointing at his mouth from below instead of from in front. So not really off axis to the source... (Off axis pick up pattern would be if the mic was directly in front of his mouth but angled away, right?) Also, maybe it's better for plosives with no pop filter? (and avoiding blasts from harmonica in a rack.) Lots of question marks! Maybe I'll give it a try...
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2019 11:41:47 GMT -6
When you angle away along the length of the ribbon, you lose treble, and a 77-D in figure 8 is already -5dB at 10kHz relative to 1kHz when dead on. 77-DX shows a big treble bump at 10K, but the basic slope is still there. The 44 and 77 manuals don't show horizontal versus vertical axis rolloff, but an example is found in the BK-11A manual. Looking at the pic again, the F8 null is pointed behind the guitar at his nipples, the guitar isn't really in the right spot for that anyway. I still vote for staged, like most old studio shots are.
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Post by longscale on Apr 28, 2019 18:32:48 GMT -6
There are some basics here that are unavoidable if you want to get close to that sound. Most likely that’s a Martin, the big low end is the giveaway. No argument for the general assessment here, but old Gibson's can be all over the map. My 1953 J50 somehow missed getting its kerfing glued to the top. That guitar has a *huge* bass voice. It also does the great dry Gibson tone to boot. My old Gibsons like Bronze strings for this direction of sound (I prefer them as well). I'll 2nd the suggestion of a little more air between the guitar and the mic. Once I start down that road (more distance between player and mic) I find that I start to really enjoy a good sounding room. I'll also 2nd the suggestion of playing with string guage. With my Gibsons I had to experiment to find which drove the instrument too hard or not hard enough. It is a cheap way to play around with the guitars tone; though I hate new strings so that game can eat up time (while I wait for the zing to die).
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Post by damoongo on Apr 28, 2019 19:28:05 GMT -6
Aren’t they just trying to better rejection? Makes little difference, and at that angle you've rolled off most of the highs. You'd turn the mic at 90º if you were keeping highs and going for rejection in figure 8, and if you were going for figure 8 you'd pick a BK-11 or 44 over a 77. I obviously agree with the documented off axis response figures. But I’m just wondering if Bob’s mic was off axis in the way they meant... In my little diagram, I think mic A would be considered off axis as the sound pressure waves would be angled across the ribbon. Where mic B would not really be off axis at the mic, just a different angle of attack to the source... Attachments:
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2019 19:59:27 GMT -6
I don't see it as in your drawing, I see it closer, higher, and pointed at his eyes or eyebrows.
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Post by damoongo on Apr 28, 2019 21:09:27 GMT -6
I don't see it as in your drawing, I see it closer, higher, and pointed at his eyes or eyebrows. Oh yeah. You’re right!
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 29, 2019 3:48:00 GMT -6
I don't see it as in your drawing, I see it closer, higher, and pointed at his eyes or eyebrows. It would be pointed at the eyes or eyebrows to avoid getting breath pops and blasts. You don't need a pop filter if you know how to position the mic.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 29, 2019 7:13:41 GMT -6
that's a really good drawing hehe
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 29, 2019 13:56:30 GMT -6
Very interesting discussion. And I need to get that book now!!! Can’t see the guitar mic on those cool studio pics. Most likely tube SDC on those, for sure. My Hummingbird is not thin. It’s a peculiar model, I think it was called the Artist, the shoulders are slightly more rounded. It bested a J200 in the store, so I bought it. I’ve recorded a couple of J45 in my studio as well and I’d be hard pressed to tell the difference. I’m down to strings and mic distance/position then. Out of laziness I’ll try with the current strings first I have been rather unimpressed by the new J-200s I've seen in stores. Maybe the new company will do something about it. One can only hope.
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Post by damoongo on Apr 29, 2019 16:46:55 GMT -6
that's a really good drawing hehe Looks just like him, right?!
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Post by Guitar on Apr 29, 2019 17:54:08 GMT -6
that's a really good drawing hehe Looks just like him, right?! Yes the deformed head shapes, weird lips, it's picture perfect!
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Post by damoongo on Apr 29, 2019 18:42:15 GMT -6
Looks just like him, right?! Yes the deformed head shapes, weird lips, it's picture perfect! If anyone needs their portrait done for Christmas gifts etc, just PM me... 🤣
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Post by Ward on Apr 29, 2019 18:55:59 GMT -6
Yes the deformed head shapes, weird lips, it's picture perfect! If anyone needs their portrait done for Christmas gifts etc, just PM me... 🤣 Can you do color? Crayons would be fine.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 29, 2019 19:14:22 GMT -6
Yes the deformed head shapes, weird lips, it's picture perfect! If anyone needs their portrait done for Christmas gifts etc, just PM me... 🤣 Does anyone need a new Avatar?....
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Post by damoongo on Apr 29, 2019 23:57:35 GMT -6
If anyone needs their portrait done for Christmas gifts etc, just PM me... 🤣 Can you do color? Crayons would be fine. My mastery resides in the black and white form, but for the price of a u47 I can make you a color one.
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