ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Mar 29, 2019 15:02:46 GMT -6
I don’t doubt that the tech is available today for somebody to possibly build a better cheap motorized fader, I don’t think the market is there to recoup the development and manufacturing costs to justify doing it. The only markets left for these faders are Audio and some mil-spec replacement. I’ll bet even P&G is selling their lowend digital encoders at least 100 to one for every motorized fader, probably closer to 1000 to 1. While yes in the hobby area you are looking at retail pricing so you probably would get a better brake wholesale, you are probably looking at units bought as lots from wholesalers. For consistency and QC most would want in a fader your going to want to deal direct with a manufacturer and I don’t think your going to hit the numbers for that. Through in the cost of rejects that hit the manufacturers QC marks but not yours, the fact that your still going to need to buy Fader mechanisms from TKD, P&G or who ever now owns what was ALPs because a Fader factory build would bankrupt you. Why wouldn’t one of the established fader makers do it? A significant amount of their market wants what they already have so they want to hit the numbers they hit now to keep those clients happy and again the market just isn’t that big. I don't know man, I think there is already the tech there...... And a company like SSL would be investing in the future, putting up the R&D for a miniature high resolution motor would be peanuts to what they'd save and also what they'd be able to offer. Bottom line is this. Companies like SSL are losing not only the hobbyist and bedroom producers, they're losing the big fish now. When a guy that used to have a giant SSL4000E in his room now has a little desk with a few choice outboard pieces and a summing rig, and had to build a special shelf to put his grammy's on instead of all over that SSL console, they've got a problem. And that same guy is still getting grammy's, so now SSL has to build something that doesn't cost much more than the summing rig he's got but gives him the exact euphonic feeling his old SSL gave him. That's what SSL has to do now. I had a SSL6000E...... It took me 5 years to come up with something that gave me a sense of what that console would do, just enough to make me happy with my product, and for me not the customers sake. Hell I could do it in the box all day and still have happy customers, they don't listen to that stuff, but I do and I want my mixes to have a certain flavor and feel to them. They'll come up with something like I described and in that price range or they'll wither and die, and that'll be sad because those consoles made a shitload of references we use today to sculpt our mixes to. Jerome The only market for faders is analog audio, it’s not about market and losing it, it’s about making profit. It there isn’t enough buisness even if you sold your faders in every analog console made to justify the investment to build a new fader production line, it’s just not there. SSL and it’s parent design and assemble gear, faders are electromechanical device and the skill and equipment to build them is an entirely different ballgame. It’s like saying GM could build better cheaper tires than Yokohama sure if a tire plant didn’t cost billions to build! SSL’s parent also knows the $$$ in audio is live and Broadcast digital, look at their portfolio, Hell I was told buy a former Digico rep point blank they bought them because they were afraid to lose market share. When I talk to guys who have gone from mixing on SSL it’s 4 guys telling me they moved ITB for instant recall and moving from project to project to every one who that still wants any analog summing of any kind. Most are now kind of stoked that with a PT rig they can do Music, ad work and video without having to get dressed! Plus they don’t have to explain why they either can’t or it will take awhile for that revision! Time is money and the DAW today is what the 4K was in the 80’s, all about moving projects to make money.
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SSL Six
Mar 29, 2019 20:26:50 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 29, 2019 20:26:50 GMT -6
If a company like SSL made a board under $3,500 or better yet $3,000 like you said Jerome, they'd sell tons of them. Companies like Allen & Heath have made attractive looking boards with good features at a reasonable price for ages now. SSL would mop the floor with them all if they made something like a 16 channel version of the Six with better implementation of the effects than the Six.
I'd love to see something like the API box or the small Audient for under 5k that sounded great and was up to date with features.
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SSL Six
Mar 29, 2019 20:47:13 GMT -6
Post by jeromemason on Mar 29, 2019 20:47:13 GMT -6
I don't know man, I think there is already the tech there...... And a company like SSL would be investing in the future, putting up the R&D for a miniature high resolution motor would be peanuts to what they'd save and also what they'd be able to offer. Bottom line is this. Companies like SSL are losing not only the hobbyist and bedroom producers, they're losing the big fish now. When a guy that used to have a giant SSL4000E in his room now has a little desk with a few choice outboard pieces and a summing rig, and had to build a special shelf to put his grammy's on instead of all over that SSL console, they've got a problem. And that same guy is still getting grammy's, so now SSL has to build something that doesn't cost much more than the summing rig he's got but gives him the exact euphonic feeling his old SSL gave him. That's what SSL has to do now. I had a SSL6000E...... It took me 5 years to come up with something that gave me a sense of what that console would do, just enough to make me happy with my product, and for me not the customers sake. Hell I could do it in the box all day and still have happy customers, they don't listen to that stuff, but I do and I want my mixes to have a certain flavor and feel to them. They'll come up with something like I described and in that price range or they'll wither and die, and that'll be sad because those consoles made a shitload of references we use today to sculpt our mixes to. Jerome The only market for faders is analog audio, it’s not about market and losing it, it’s about making profit. It there isn’t enough buisness even if you sold your faders in every analog console made to justify the investment to build a new fader production line, it’s just not there. SSL and it’s parent design and assemble gear, faders are electromechanical device and the skill and equipment to build them is an entirely different ballgame. It’s like saying GM could build better cheaper tires than Yokohama sure if a tire plant didn’t cost billions to build! SSL’s parent also knows the $$$ in audio is live and Broadcast digital, look at their portfolio, Hell I was told buy a former Digico rep point blank they bought them because they were afraid to lose market share. When I talk to guys who have gone from mixing on SSL it’s 4 guys telling me they moved ITB for instant recall and moving from project to project to every one who that still wants any analog summing of any kind. Most are now kind of stoked that with a PT rig they can do Music, ad work and video without having to get dressed! Plus they don’t have to explain why they either can’t or it will take awhile for that revision! Time is money and the DAW today is what the 4K was in the 80’s, all about moving projects to make money. Well that's why I moved ITB, because I ended up using two channels on the console to monitor the mix out of protools with. All about recalls. I'm going to keep looking at it how i'm looking at it. SSL will come out with a 16 channel board that has total recall and DAW integration, with those flying faders, their summing section and mix buss comp. All channels will have EQ and compression and you'll be able to buy it for $5k. I just think the cost on parts has come down so much, and SSL has the designs, they don't have to come up with anything, just copy and paste circuit by circuit in a main board schematic..... It's not us guys out here mixing that want instant recall.... I loved the down time and telling the client we'd have to charge to do stamped recalls because of remixing the songs, most shrugged and said never mind. Now if the reverb tail isn't 3ms longer it just ruins the song and it just must be changed, "you can do that really quick can't you?" GRRRRR Anyway, I love what I do, and grateful everyday I fire this rig up and hit the cha ching button, love the gig. And SSL will come out with that board before I retire, bank on it.
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Post by christopher on Mar 30, 2019 0:39:48 GMT -6
I noticed the SSL six YouTube vid has 40k+ views already(!)
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 31, 2019 19:07:57 GMT -6
Jerome The only market for faders is analog audio, it’s not about market and losing it, it’s about making profit. It there isn’t enough buisness even if you sold your faders in every analog console made to justify the investment to build a new fader production line, it’s just not there. SSL and it’s parent design and assemble gear, faders are electromechanical device and the skill and equipment to build them is an entirely different ballgame. It’s like saying GM could build better cheaper tires than Yokohama sure if a tire plant didn’t cost billions to build! SSL’s parent also knows the $$$ in audio is live and Broadcast digital, look at their portfolio, Hell I was told buy a former Digico rep point blank they bought them because they were afraid to lose market share. When I talk to guys who have gone from mixing on SSL it’s 4 guys telling me they moved ITB for instant recall and moving from project to project to every one who that still wants any analog summing of any kind. Most are now kind of stoked that with a PT rig they can do Music, ad work and video without having to get dressed! Plus they don’t have to explain why they either can’t or it will take awhile for that revision! Time is money and the DAW today is what the 4K was in the 80’s, all about moving projects to make money. Well that's why I moved ITB, because I ended up using two channels on the console to monitor the mix out of protools with. All about recalls. I'm going to keep looking at it how i'm looking at it. SSL will come out with a 16 channel board that has total recall and DAW integration, with those flying faders, their summing section and mix buss comp. All channels will have EQ and compression and you'll be able to buy it for $5k. I just think the cost on parts has come down so much, and SSL has the designs, they don't have to come up with anything, just copy and paste circuit by circuit in a main board schematic..... It's not us guys out here mixing that want instant recall.... I loved the down time and telling the client we'd have to charge to do stamped recalls because of remixing the songs, most shrugged and said never mind. Now if the reverb tail isn't 3ms longer it just ruins the song and it just must be changed, "you can do that really quick can't you?" GRRRRR Anyway, I love what I do, and grateful everyday I fire this rig up and hit the cha ching button, love the gig. And SSL will come out with that board before I retire, bank on it. I hope and think you're right that SSL and hopefully Neve will make a smaller desk at some point. But it will never ever be 5k. No way in hell. SSL will charge out the ass for it because they can. It'll be like the box, 15k more likely 20k area.
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SSL Six
Mar 31, 2019 22:19:00 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 31, 2019 22:19:00 GMT -6
You're probably right Blackdawg, but we're hoping the market shifts and they have reason to make something like a 16 track mixing board under 5K with features like the Six, but more advanced, and preferably under 3k. If the six is $1500, maybe they can make an "18", like 3 sixes with a more pro layout. Why leave that market to Behringer or Allen & Heath when SSL could take it all away with the right move. They could also pull way ahead of Audient and API if the made a board that's similar to their small boards but under 5k.
Sure there would be compromises, but like computer technology, things keep getting more powerful and less expensive, and much of the tech SSL needs they've already developed. I bet they could put this together on paper in no time using parts they've already designed.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 31, 2019 23:22:52 GMT -6
You're probably right Blackdawg, but we're hoping the market shifts and they have reason to make something like a 16 track mixing board under 5K with features like the Six, but more advanced, and preferably under 3k. If the six is $1500, maybe they can make an "18", like 3 sixes with a more pro layout. Why leave that market to Behringer or Allen & Heath when SSL could take it all away with the right move. They could also pull way ahead of Audient and API if the made a board that's similar to their small boards but under 5k. Sure there would be compromises, but like computer technology, things keep getting more powerful and less expensive, and much of the tech SSL needs they've already developed. I bet they could put this together on paper in no time using parts they've already designed. I just don't see them doing that. They don't need to, they have a big brand name. One of the pinnacle's of audio really. They would plop it right next to the Box and and ask 15k for it just like API.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 1, 2019 7:19:05 GMT -6
You're probably right Blackdawg, but we're hoping the market shifts and they have reason to make something like a 16 track mixing board under 5K with features like the Six, but more advanced, and preferably under 3k. If the six is $1500, maybe they can make an "18", like 3 sixes with a more pro layout. Why leave that market to Behringer or Allen & Heath when SSL could take it all away with the right move. They could also pull way ahead of Audient and API if the made a board that's similar to their small boards but under 5k. Sure there would be compromises, but like computer technology, things keep getting more powerful and less expensive, and much of the tech SSL needs they've already developed. I bet they could put this together on paper in no time using parts they've already designed. A&H and SSL are already under the same unbrella. www.gearnews.com/solid-state-logic-ssl-gets-acquired-allen-heath-owner-audiotonix/If SSL is selling channel strips for $1500 each, why would they release a 16 channel console for $5k? Why would they completely undercut themselves like that? They MIGHT push out an 8 strip version of the SIX for $5k or $6k, but it's not going to have motorized faders and DAW control like Jerome is dreaming of. They already have a product similar to The Box pricing as well. vintageking.com/ssl-xl-desk-unloaded
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SSL Six
Apr 1, 2019 7:20:28 GMT -6
via mobile
ericn likes this
Post by Quint on Apr 1, 2019 7:20:28 GMT -6
You're probably right Blackdawg, but we're hoping the market shifts and they have reason to make something like a 16 track mixing board under 5K with features like the Six, but more advanced, and preferably under 3k. If the six is $1500, maybe they can make an "18", like 3 sixes with a more pro layout. Why leave that market to Behringer or Allen & Heath when SSL could take it all away with the right move. They could also pull way ahead of Audient and API if the made a board that's similar to their small boards but under 5k. Sure there would be compromises, but like computer technology, things keep getting more powerful and less expensive, and much of the tech SSL needs they've already developed. I bet they could put this together on paper in no time using parts they've already designed. I just don't see them doing that. They don't need to, they have a big brand name. One of the pinnacle's of audio really. They would plop it right next to the Box and and ask 15k for it just like API. Yeah, I don't think so either. Certainly not 16 channels for $5k. "Maybe" 8 channels with 8 channel expander units each available in the $5k range, but not 16 channels in that price range, at least not for something with an SSL badge on it.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 1, 2019 9:29:29 GMT -6
I hope and think you're right that SSL and hopefully Neve will make a smaller desk at some point. But it will never ever be 5k. No way in hell. SSL will charge out the ass for it because they can. It'll be like the box, 15k more likely 20k area. Agreed!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2019 11:54:28 GMT -6
I guess I was dreaming, I looked around a little and they have the XL board with space for 18 500 style units for around 20G's and there's a summing mixer X- Desk.
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 1, 2019 14:18:37 GMT -6
You're probably right Blackdawg, but we're hoping the market shifts and they have reason to make something like a 16 track mixing board under 5K with features like the Six, but more advanced, and preferably under 3k. If the six is $1500, maybe they can make an "18", like 3 sixes with a more pro layout. Why leave that market to Behringer or Allen & Heath when SSL could take it all away with the right move. They could also pull way ahead of Audient and API if the made a board that's similar to their small boards but under 5k. Sure there would be compromises, but like computer technology, things keep getting more powerful and less expensive, and much of the tech SSL needs they've already developed. I bet they could put this together on paper in no time using parts they've already designed. A&H and SSL are already under the same unbrella. www.gearnews.com/solid-state-logic-ssl-gets-acquired-allen-heath-owner-audiotonix/If SSL is selling channel strips for $1500 each, why would they release a 16 channel console for $5k? Why would they completely undercut themselves like that? They MIGHT push out an 8 strip version of the SIX for $5k or $6k, but it's not going to have motorized faders and DAW control like Jerome is dreaming of. They already have a product similar to The Box pricing as well. vintageking.com/ssl-xl-desk-unloadedI'm not talking about in the next 6 months, I'm not even talking about in the next 6 years. I said one day before I retire I believe they'll be forced to put out what I described for $5k. So if we're just talking about SSL at some point they're going to have to deal with the same thing Neve and API are dealing with right now, that so many companies are using those old schematics and making affordable gear that sounds and does exactly the same thing. Would you buy a vintage 1081 for $7k or a remake for $700? Thats pretty much reality now, and I never thought in a million years just 10 years ago, that today you could get a 1073 pre/eq strip for that price. SSL just hasn't came into the focus of these guys yet, but they will. The more and more people talk about wanting the sound of the SSL desk, someone out there will build the line amps, eq, compressor, summing buss and buss compressor in a rack mount processor. That will be just the start of it, eventually companies like Klark Teknik will take notice and actually start building the full blown consoles with all the modern interfacing we need. No telling how much those would sell for. And for SSL the even bigger problem is that these companies don't have the transformer hurdle to jump over. SSL (SOLID STATE Logic) its nothing but monolithic chips and VCA's. Once they have to compete with that they will start to wheel out products that keep going lower and lower in price, either that or they will be slowly and quietly swallowed up and gone, and like I said that would be a sad day, they changed the way people heard music. Like I said, I don't want what I said to be misunderstood. I'm not talking about in the very near future, I'm talking about in the distant future. The technology for taking schematics to PCB's is exponentially increasing, and the size and scale they're able to do it on is going right along with it. Something will have to give at some point. Just my opinion.
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SSL Six
Apr 1, 2019 17:06:22 GMT -6
Post by Guitar on Apr 1, 2019 17:06:22 GMT -6
As silly as this little mixer is it SOUNDS really good in the videos. I'm sure someone could make good use of it.
There is no way SSL is going to lower their prices to compete with Behringer. Their products are higher quality than "some clone" anyway.
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SSL Six
Apr 1, 2019 17:33:32 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2019 17:33:32 GMT -6
I don't think they should price themselves like the bargain brands, just that they'd sell tons of mixers if they did something like the Six only for twice the money with a little more overall functionality and inputs, and non compromised effects.
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SSL Six
Apr 1, 2019 20:00:03 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 1, 2019 20:00:03 GMT -6
I don't think they should price themselves like the bargain brands, just that they'd sell tons of mixers if they did something like the Six only for twice the money with a little more overall functionality and inputs, and non compromised effects. How is it compromised for your use? It would for your need perfectly as is. You're not recording more than 2 channels at a time right?
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SSL Six
Apr 1, 2019 20:30:20 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2019 20:30:20 GMT -6
Yes, but I think they mentioned things like the 2 bus compressor having limited features. From SSL " the SiX sports its legendary G-series buss compressor on the main outputs, using the exact same circuit as the legendary consoles but with a fixed ratio, attack and release times and more modern VCA chips".
I don't have time right now to go back, but some folks mentioned a few other things that were simplified to make it less expensive. I'd like to have at l6 track summing, a more flexible proper G-buss compressor, and some more preamps. This way if I ever grow into recording a group at the same time, I can still use it.
I'm not saying this doesn't look pretty cool, just that it might not be something I need the way it's designed now. I'd like 8 or 16 preamps or none and see that money used toward features. I still have to look more closely at it before making any final judgements. If it works as well as SSL's separate summing mixer I'd probably buy it for that alone.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Apr 2, 2019 6:36:56 GMT -6
I don't think they should price themselves like the bargain brands, just that they'd sell tons of mixers if they did something like the Six only for twice the money with a little more overall functionality and inputs, and non compromised effects. How is it compromised for your use? It would for your need perfectly as is. You're not recording more than 2 channels at a time right? I think Martins talking about the less than full featured EQ and bus comp. more than anything.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 2, 2019 6:46:10 GMT -6
If I was just recording myself at home, I’d pick this thing up in a heartbeat. The features are pretty deep (like any ssl) and you really have to read through the manual to get everything you can do (just like any of the big boy ssl’s).
I don’t see the likes of the big “B” trying to copy any serious SSL gear other than maybe the bus comp etc. If you’ve ever pulled a channel strip out of one of the consoles you’d know how serious they are.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 2, 2019 7:54:07 GMT -6
Thanks Ericn, I was referring to those things earlier.
Food for thought Jeremy, thanks.
I actually really like the sound I've heard from the SSL 9000. I've heard it at Jeremy's Barbershop studios, and have sat in on some big time sessions and it sounded huge and tight. So, I will look into this more closely. I'm in no rush, I've just gotten the new Apollo x6 and the Stam Audio SA67, and I need new monitors, so it's not a priority. That means i'll have time for consensus to happen and to really see if it would be worth it for me. I'll admit, I think the SSL name means something and I'd dig having one of their products.
I think it's great SSL did this. I guess since they already make a bunch of boxes that do different things between 3k and 25k, this is their move to the home and project studio market. I just wish they'd "doubled" this with 4 or 8 preamps and a few more features for under 3K.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 2, 2019 17:30:22 GMT -6
I noticed the SSL six YouTube vid has 40k+ views already(!) Should be good for one or two sales, anyway!
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SSL Six
Apr 2, 2019 18:47:58 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Quint on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:58 GMT -6
Martin, have you considered something like the CAPI Sumbus paired with the CAPI Dawtomation (VCA version)? 16 channels of each would give you what you're talking about, and in the $5000 price range, minus the EQ and more extensive routing of course.
I just think that, with all of the outboard eqs and comps that everyone has these days, there is less incentive for companies like SSL to offer a full fledged board at anywhere near the price range you're talking about. Toft tried it at that price range and that board didn't even have automation. We all know how reliable those things have turned out to be.
Or just pick up a used Audient ASP2802 for $3k used and use outboard eq. Those things have a LOT of functionality for the price. Granted, they're 8 instead of 16 channels, but still pretty cool for the price, especially for a home setup.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 2, 2019 19:21:02 GMT -6
I noticed the SSL six YouTube vid has 40k+ views already(!) Should be good for one or two sales, anyway! That would be a pretty killer conversion rate...
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Post by donr on May 25, 2020 12:29:44 GMT -6
SSL six is on sale this weekend, $300 off.
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SSL Six
May 25, 2020 14:52:01 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on May 25, 2020 14:52:01 GMT -6
Thanks Quint. I've moved on from thinking of a board for now. With the Covid-19 situation I won't be buying much for a while anyway. Something like the Silver Bullet or the Dangerous 2 Bus + might be in play sometime later on.
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SSL Six
May 26, 2020 9:20:13 GMT -6
Post by mrholmes on May 26, 2020 9:20:13 GMT -6
I learned to see the advantages to move away from a small console and all I can say it was the right decision. Working with a few pieces of hardware and the rest all digital is the modern workflow.
Using direct monitoring via the interface works flawless.
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