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Post by mrholmes on Mar 16, 2019 7:31:33 GMT -6
Ok.
Someone could argue "after all the years you should know what works special - as a guitar player."
But mh I cant help myself.....
Its not a matter of gear.....
Dreadnoughts sound overly big in the low end and I always use EQ! It does not matter if I do it in my small tracking room at home, or in one of the best tracking rooms in town. If I dont want to go miles away with the mic they have that tendency in the low end.
Same is true for OMs but more around 100 -200 Hz very midrange boomy.
Sure changing the mic postion helps but the boomy tendency is always there.
And not to forget I always have to remove one or two body resonances with the EQ. Someone can say - take a better Guitar, my best buddy owns one of the finest guitar stores in town. I did try a lot of guitars even extrem expensive ones....
They all show thier tendency by the traditon of the body shape.
Mic positin and changing the way I play the guitar helps.
But in the end...EQ
Whats your expereince on this? I find it still difficult to get the sound I have in my head?
Cheers Holmes
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Post by EmRR on Mar 16, 2019 8:43:23 GMT -6
Omni main always makes it easier for me.
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Post by swafford on Mar 16, 2019 10:33:16 GMT -6
My experience with low end on a dreadnaught is it depends on the dreadnaught and what kind of sound you are looking for. My Gibson inspired Bourgeois Slope D would never be accused of being bottom heavy. My battered D35 might, but if it's being crosspicked, I want that bottom and it ain't heavy anyway. My dreadnaughts are not boomy in the lows unless I mic them to close and unless the song is centered on the acoustic guitar and it there is a bass or organ, I'm HPF up to 125 sometimes 200 on the bottom anyway and in a band with drum mix, I'm also boosting broadly in the 1.2k - 3k range because, mostly, in that context I'm interested in the acoustic as part of the rhythm section and how it's working with the drums. I also mostly mic wiht a Royer 122v.
So, no, boomy dreads are not my bane and I EQ and compress as needed anyway and don't lose sleep over it.
And for every Martin that BOOMS there's a J45 that lost it's balls somewhere.
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Post by theshea on Mar 16, 2019 16:01:06 GMT -6
don't be afraid to aim at the 10th or 8th fret. that can help with boomy acoustics. and yeah, like already recommended, more distance - from 25cm upwards - should help. or position the mic at the 12th fret but aim it towards the 8-9th fret. listen with headphones while playing and move the guitar around while the mic stays where it is on the stand.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 16, 2019 16:28:24 GMT -6
The preamp has some effect. I am currently testing some secret gear that has a boost in clarity and not too much lows. There is gear on the market I am sure that has similar properties.
If you need a second mic, maybe over the soulder, I don't think that position has as much boom as a direct body mic.
I would stick to SDC if you're having bass problems. I think LDC and especially ribbon would only increase that effect. I use a pair of modified Oktava MK 012, highly recommended. They are available with omni and hypercardioid capsules, in addition to the normal cardioid.
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Post by M57 on Mar 16, 2019 16:40:50 GMT -6
I'm looking to experiment more with SDC's. Most recently I've had reasonable success with a SDC at the 16th fret or so and an LDC over the shoulder, but I'm not thrilled with my Rode NT-5's these days. Once I get a matched set of something really nice I'm hoping to work with a pair of matched SDC's with one over the shoulder. I do like the flexibility of mixing those two channels. Right now I've got my sights on the AKG C 451's and maybe the WA-84's if they turn out to be of typical Warm P/Q. Honestly, my expectations are low for the Warm, but I feel like I should wait until I hear some proper shoot-outs to guide my decision.
Also, regarding the mud on the bottom ..that's why I'm a Taylor fan. I've just never really liked what I consider to be the muddy bottoms of the Martins, and getting those lower frequencies to play nice in the mix seems to vex a lot of folks. I think the Taylor has a bit of an advantage there, at least for the genres of music that I'm into.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 16, 2019 16:43:48 GMT -6
I agree about Taylors. Mine is very bright. That's probably why I bought it. The Epiphone Hummingbird I use also is not very bassy, and somewhat bright. A lot of it does happen at the guitar itself.
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Post by Chad on Mar 16, 2019 16:52:02 GMT -6
Warren Heart shares some useful tips in this vid:
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Post by jeromemason on Mar 16, 2019 23:41:08 GMT -6
Best sound I get is #1 great guitar, #2 great player #3 Royers tube ribbon into an Electra and then an LA-2A with the emphasis pulled so the highs cut through.....
Check the polar maps on the mics and try to get it close enough and aimed so you get the body and some of the pick, usually off axis pointed at the 16th fret and off axis pointing away from the sound hole. If you want, put another mic, like an SM7 or SM57 right at the bridge on axis and blend that in.
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Post by iamasound on Mar 17, 2019 3:20:50 GMT -6
I never need to dial back my 1980 Ibanez J-540 big boned curvy blond in the context of a one guitar, one voice scenario. It makes no difference the mic or placement (unless I stick it inside the sound hole, LOL), but the Martins dreads always need some kind consideration to hit the sweet spot. The D-15M just loves the Gefell m930 above the center of the lower bout a foot and a half away and about a foot high pointed a few inches inside of the upper edge. Add in a Beyer MC 930 at the 12th fret angled at 45° and use it in stereo or add in the neck to the body to taste for a mono mixing. The D-18 rattles my chest and has a very intense low end, and though she is yet unnamed and new, I have been using a Gefell umt70s in omni to my satisfaction (distance varies from song to song) with an old AT 4051b (no low cut switch) at the 12th. Every guitar has it's own thing going on, as well as how we hear them that can change over time. I don't think that there is a set and forget preset for micing acoustics and my go-to has changed and changed again. That's what makes it still fun and keeps it interesting. Heck, even a different set of strings can upset the apple cart of preconcieved notion of how to in the context of studio mic placement as just as well as the room itself.
And because static change is inherent in the audio engineering weave, what is wrong with using a little eq now and again to help something fit into a mix? Sure there is an art to placement, though with all the tools available to us, depending on one's philosophy of course, it can be great to utilize them to suite the need at hand.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 17, 2019 5:28:57 GMT -6
Thanks for all the inspiration.
Got some new information... here. Seems that I am still too much influenced by picking up Solo FS guitar performances and I am too shy with expermenting with crazy positions as well as extreme off axis for more popular music.
The video was a true inspiration.
Seems that I am too shy with diffrent mic positions when I am tracking myself.
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2019 7:46:16 GMT -6
When I was looking for a studio acoustic, my cousin and I went around to ask the local stores and he played while I listened.
We tried new and used, expensive and cheap, brand names and no-names.
Turns out most acoustics just have that low end bump that you're talking about.
I did settle on one guitar with the least low end bump, a Mitchell brand guitar. Very bright, but sits in the mix really well with close mics.
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Post by mrholmes on Mar 17, 2019 9:53:50 GMT -6
When I was looking for a studio acoustic, my cousin and I went around to ask the local stores and he played while I listened. We tried new and used, expensive and cheap, brand names and no-names. Turns out most acoustics just have that low end bump that you're talking about. I did settle on one guitar with the least low end bump, a Mitchell brand guitar. Very bright, but sits in the mix really well with close mics. I was surprised how close he goes in the video and how hard he goes off axis to not get the boomines of the dreadnought body... Anyway I was teached that too close is a no go. But what if you don't want too much of the room sound.
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Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2019 9:59:57 GMT -6
When I was looking for a studio acoustic, my cousin and I went around to ask the local stores and he played while I listened. We tried new and used, expensive and cheap, brand names and no-names. Turns out most acoustics just have that low end bump that you're talking about. I did settle on one guitar with the least low end bump, a Mitchell brand guitar. Very bright, but sits in the mix really well with close mics. ^^^^^ I picked up a used cheap Mitchell MO110S (?)> It's about the same size as my 000-18's. I actually hi-strung it, but it's one of the best playing and best sounding guitars I have. Really wonderful build and playability and it sounds wonderful. At least hi-strung. I bought it for $110 for that purpose, and it's never been strung normally since the day it was sold. Killer guitar...
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Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2019 10:02:53 GMT -6
When I was looking for a studio acoustic, my cousin and I went around to ask the local stores and he played while I listened. We tried new and used, expensive and cheap, brand names and no-names. Turns out most acoustics just have that low end bump that you're talking about. I did settle on one guitar with the least low end bump, a Mitchell brand guitar. Very bright, but sits in the mix really well with close mics. I was surprised how close he goes in the video and how hard he goes off axis to not get the boomines of the dreadnought body... Anyway I was teached that too close is a no go. But what if you don't want too much of the room sound. Try an omni. One of the most amazing sounds for me is the KM53 (Omni) up close - REAL CLOSE on a martin. No boom, incredibly articulate and detailed (often too much so), and clear as a bell. I'm also a big fan of the "over the picking side shoulder" technique. A U87 or similar mic works great there. Sometimes you just have to fiddle around with where you place and point the mic to get the sound you hear in your head.
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2019 14:15:28 GMT -6
When I was looking for a studio acoustic, my cousin and I went around to ask the local stores and he played while I listened. We tried new and used, expensive and cheap, brand names and no-names. Turns out most acoustics just have that low end bump that you're talking about. I did settle on one guitar with the least low end bump, a Mitchell brand guitar. Very bright, but sits in the mix really well with close mics. ^^^^^ I picked up a used cheap Mitchell MO110S (?)> It's about the same size as my 000-18's. I actually hi-strung it, but it's one of the best playing and best sounding guitars I have. Really wonderful build and playability and it sounds wonderful. At least hi-strung. I bought it for $110 for that purpose, and it's never been strung normally since the day it was sold. Killer guitar... I know, right?? This was one of their mid-line ones with the bindings and mother of pearl inlays, usually around 500-600$ but I got it on clearance for like 175. An absolute steal. I wanted a decent cheap guitar because I was afraid someone would drop it and I didn't want to get a nice Taylor or something, but this one beat out guitars costing 5x as much. However, we did have select it out of a bunch of them, although they were all decent.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 17, 2019 16:06:29 GMT -6
I was surprised how close he goes in the video and how hard he goes off axis to not get the boomines of the dreadnought body... Anyway I was teached that too close is a no go. But what if you don't want too much of the room sound. Try an omni. One of the most amazing sounds for me is the KM53 (Omni) up close - REAL CLOSE on a martin. No boom, incredibly articulate and detailed (often too much so), and clear as a bell. I'm also a big fan of the "over the picking side shoulder" technique. A U87 or similar mic works great there. Sometimes you just have to fiddle around with where you place and point the mic to get the sound you hear in your head. Looking down, kinda like an OH? (Over shoulder).
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Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2019 16:11:13 GMT -6
Stand coming in from behind, coming up and over your R shoulder 4" or so, coming forward of the shoulder 8-12", pointing down towards the sound hole. Or thereabouts...
When I want the guitar stereo (fairly rarely), I'll always use this technique. LDC over the shoulder, SDC around the 12th fret - pulled back a bit.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 17, 2019 16:42:24 GMT -6
Well, I know I've probably said that here before (I know I have elsewhere on numerous occasions), but if you're having the problem you describe you've got the mic too close - the proximity effect from the mic is interacting with the "WOOF" resonance off the soundhole.
I generally keep the mic about 2 feet back, sometimes as much as 3, never, ever closer than 18".
The two house guitars we have here are a 1959 J-200 and a 1964 Guild D-40 dreadnaught. Neither one of them has a "woof" problem. Neither one shows a mid-bass bump. J-200s in particular have a (undeserved) rep for being boomy guitars, but if you mic them properly it's not true. I use any one of several mics - AKG C12A, AKG C414 EB P48, Pearlman TM-1, Neumann KM84, Neumann U87 Ai (pre-Sennheiser), AKG C451 EB, Shure Model 300 ribbon, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. They all work fine. No bump. No woof. Nice, balanced tone. Same thing with "visiting guitars". Generally no EQ is needed, unless we're trying for some special effect.
No particular room treatment, although the rooms (and position) are selected by ear for good natural tone.
Never more than one mic, either, although for a solo guitar recording I'd probably use a mic in the normal position and the pair of 414s as room mics to provide a stereo effect.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 17, 2019 19:13:08 GMT -6
Stand coming in from behind, coming up and over your R shoulder 4" or so, coming forward of the shoulder 8-12", pointing down towards the sound hole. Or thereabouts... When I want the guitar stereo (fairly rarely), I'll always use this technique. LDC over the shoulder, SDC around the 12th fret - pulled back a bit. Thank you, that helps tremendously with visualizing this approach.
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Post by M57 on Mar 17, 2019 19:17:55 GMT -6
Stand coming in from behind, coming up and over your R shoulder 4" or so, coming forward of the shoulder 8-12", pointing down towards the sound hole. Or thereabouts... When I want the guitar stereo (fairly rarely), I'll always use this technique. LDC over the shoulder, SDC around the 12th fret - pulled back a bit. Thank you, that helps tremendously with visualizing this approach. How do you mix tracks recorded like this? ..panning?
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 17, 2019 19:34:23 GMT -6
When I do that, I usually hard pan them. But I’ve also had luck setting the front mic either center or slightly left, then closing my eyes and rolling the shoulder mic til it sounds right. Sometimes it’s off balance, sometimes symmetrical. Like Glyn Johns only for guitar.
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Post by reddirt on Mar 17, 2019 20:20:49 GMT -6
IME. Guitar first but even the best will boom if miced too close.
The room is a major determinant as it allows you to : 1. Move the mic as far as it needs to be to work or, 2. use an omni. Both techniques can be somewhat at the mercy of the room acoustic however by and large I would rather place the instrument in a different part of the room than try to eq it right. IME EQ rarely fixes boom as you have to take too much of the guitars sound away (often the boomy mud will be relatively peaky , not solved by an HPF - around 100- 160ish}
Don't be afraid to use your ears and put in the work experimenting.
2 mics as Dr Bill alluded to can work in a sparse arrangement; there is often an implication that 2 mins is a no-no - I don't subscribe to that as what sounds good is good.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2019 22:48:32 GMT -6
Thank you, that helps tremendously with visualizing this approach. How do you mix tracks recorded like this? ..panning? Left / Right. As hard as you like. It's pretty organic sounding. Or at least it has been in my experience. Of course it depends on how tight in you are. Generally, it doesn't feel "weird or unnatural" going hard L/R to me. Of course, pan to suit the esthetic of the song. BTW, my "go to" mics in this position are KM84 on the fretboard, and U87 over the shoulder. They really work well together.
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Post by drbill on Mar 17, 2019 22:50:52 GMT -6
Stand coming in from behind, coming up and over your R shoulder 4" or so, coming forward of the shoulder 8-12", pointing down towards the sound hole. Or thereabouts... When I want the guitar stereo (fairly rarely), I'll always use this technique. LDC over the shoulder, SDC around the 12th fret - pulled back a bit. Thank you, that helps tremendously with visualizing this approach. You bet!! Depending on how "boomy" the guitar is, you may not want to point EXACTLY towards the sound hole, but generally speaking, that's more or less where I aim the mic. I'll try to snap a pic next time I do it, but I generally do not prefer stereo acoustics as I normally do productions where the Ac is not up front and personal - or a solo instrument. I've generally got a bunch of layers going on - so mostly mono.
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