|
Post by matt@IAA on Feb 16, 2019 16:57:18 GMT -6
Hey matt@IAA - Over the years, I can think of VERY few pieces that I've bought that I KNEW up front would cash flow. My JH24 was one. The 3/4" Video deck and it's synchronizers were a given as well. (Both purchased a couple decades ago when you could easily charge $80-100 an hour for studio time.) My Prophet V in 1981 was another. But - no mic, pre or compressor was EVER going to create cash flow. LOL I bought em cause I wanted em and they made me more creative. I could agree with you if a recording studio was a viable business option, but these days, it would be pretty difficult to make that jump. Still, there are situations where a purchase can / will increase your income, and if you don't have the cash, you'll lose out. In those circumstances, I might be willing to finance something. But it still goes against what I've learned over the years. Just my experiences and my (unfinanced) $0.02! Cheers, No doubt. If the business case ain’t there it ain’t there.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2019 17:14:16 GMT -6
Hey matt@IAA - Over the years, I can think of VERY few pieces that I've bought that I KNEW up front would cash flow. My JH24 was one. The 3/4" Video deck and synchronizers were another. (Both purchased a couple decades ago when you could easily charge $80-100 an hour for studio time.) But - no mic, pre or compressor was EVER going to create cash flow. LOL I bought em cause I wanted em. I could agree with you if a recording studio was a viable business option, but these days, it would be pretty difficult to make that jump. Still, there are situations where a purchase can / will increase your income, and if you don't have the cash, you'll lose out. In those circumstances, I might be willing to finance something. But it still goes against what I've learned over the years. Just my experiences and my (unfinanced) $0.02! Cheers, Well on that note.. Thats kind of the problem I have now. I need new IO and want PT HD as I work in that at work all the time at my job and also want to use a lot of analog gear. I want 32ch IO to start of HD IO. To get that its a 2500-8500+ investment. But Im not doing anything without having it. So I can't make any money ever without IO. As I have none right now that is my own. I don't think I'll ever need to finance other gear like compressors/eqs/racks/cables and such. I can save up for those easy with my full time job. And hopefully once I start doing more freelance Id probably just put all that money into gear and making my space better as I don't need to depend on that money to support me. So in that case. Would you finance? That's a tough one. It really has to do with the potential of your business if you have them vs. if you don't. But you don't really HAVE to have 32 channels of i/o right out of the gate do you? Are you tracking groups that large? A stopgap is to use the 192's. Not horrible, and they work fine with HDX. All that said, PM me if you want to know of a place that can/will get you killer prices on HD interfaces, HDX cards, etc. (anything PT). Says the pusher man.... Hahahaaaa!! I know a guy.....
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Feb 16, 2019 20:36:51 GMT -6
32 I/O for a new home based recording business? Surely there must be a way to start more modest and build as required. Plus you're talking about the part of the gear chain that in five years will most likely greatly depreciate in value leaving you no financial exit strategy.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 16, 2019 23:02:40 GMT -6
Well on that note.. Thats kind of the problem I have now. I need new IO and want PT HD as I work in that at work all the time at my job and also want to use a lot of analog gear. I want 32ch IO to start of HD IO. To get that its a 2500-8500+ investment. But Im not doing anything without having it. So I can't make any money ever without IO. As I have none right now that is my own. I don't think I'll ever need to finance other gear like compressors/eqs/racks/cables and such. I can save up for those easy with my full time job. And hopefully once I start doing more freelance Id probably just put all that money into gear and making my space better as I don't need to depend on that money to support me. So in that case. Would you finance? That's a tough one. It really has to do with the potential of your business if you have them vs. if you don't. But you don't really HAVE to have 32 channels of i/o right out of the gate do you? Are you tracking groups that large? A stopgap is to use the 192's. Not horrible, and they work fine with HDX. All that said, PM me if you want to know of a place that can/will get you killer prices on HD interfaces, HDX cards, etc. (anything PT). Says the pusher man.... Hahahaaaa!! I know a guy..... No not planning on doing tracking. I ha e a nice facility I can use for that. What I do want is basically what you have. A good hybrid setup. I love analog gear. I have almost enough already to use 32ch io for analog inserts. I realize there are way around that via chaining things together and such. Which I also plan on doing. I'd like to start with 24-32ch. I have enough gear now and gear I'm building to use almost all of that. I'll likely end up around 48 or 72 total. Have thought about grabbing some 192s for now. Would like at lead one avid hd io. Can grab them for 1500 often anyways. Was leaning towards the antelope orion32HD but I'm worried about compatible issues. Even though 32ch(64 with other digital routing) in 1u is very appealing. I might take you up on that! 32 I/O for a new home based recording business? Surely there must be a way to start more modest and build as required. Plus you're talking about the part of the gear chain that in five years will most likely greatly depreciate in value leaving you no financial exit strategy. Not recording. I don't have the space for that yet. And again won't be my full time deal. My full time job is recording and producing chamber music for an arts center. I'm doing a mixing mastering setup and want to use a lot of analog gear.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Feb 17, 2019 8:13:54 GMT -6
Blackdawg, if it’s a hobby then have fun. Haha. If it’s a business, come up with a strategy. This is all about clear choices.
What do you want to do / who are your clients, what don’t you want to do? What services will you offer, etc.
How are you going to enter that space (little at a time, Loan, merge, buy an existing studio..))
What’s your timing for entering the market? What’s your sequencing?
What’s your differentiator? Why would people come to you vs others? And how do you protect that from customers and competitors?
And lastly what’s the economic logic behind it? Why will you make money versus others? How do you justify your profits? (Lower cost overhead, unmatched service...)
If you can’t answer those questions about a business plan you don’t have a strategy. And you can’t really say, yes this decision makes sense (like financing or not, certain assets or not).
My stodgy non-rock and roll business development 0.02
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 17, 2019 11:04:24 GMT -6
Chris Stone told me that when he built Record Plant, he NEVER bought any gear new and leased the latest consoles and tape machines.
Nashville is wonderful because I can rent almost any piece of gear. I would only invest in the things I use every day such as first class monitoring.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 18, 2019 9:36:33 GMT -6
Blackdawg, if it’s a hobby then have fun. Haha. If it’s a business, come up with a strategy. This is all about clear choices. What do you want to do / who are your clients, what don’t you want to do? What services will you offer, etc. How are you going to enter that space (little at a time, Loan, merge, buy an existing studio..)) What’s your timing for entering the market? What’s your sequencing? What’s your differentiator? Why would people come to you vs others? And how do you protect that from customers and competitors? And lastly what’s the economic logic behind it? Why will you make money versus others? How do you justify your profits? (Lower cost overhead, unmatched service...) If you can’t answer those questions about a business plan you don’t have a strategy. And you can’t really say, yes this decision makes sense (like financing or not, certain assets or not). My stodgy non-rock and roll business development 0.02 Not a hobby. Im pro audio engineer by trade right now. This is more expanding my reach to allow me to get to do more things. Right now, even early in my career, Im already boxed in to Classical Chamber music a bit. I want to keep my hand in with other projects. I want to freelance Mix/Master for anyone. While I'd be fine with recording there are issues with that as the studio I get to use is a few hours away and not everyone will want to travel there and its availability is limited. So would rather just mix/master. Right now, a little at a time to build my own place probably into my house. No rush. But I would like to start getting the basis of my system together to start more or less practicing to find my routing and learn some of the gear I have even better. Hopefully being a mostly analog hybrid studio of sorts will be enough. Though its common now, my setup will be very unique. It will be like having a console...without the console. Having a mostly all analog back end I hope to tap into the people that want to use that. As well as just being a good engineer I know I can get local talent across the tri state area and hopefully beyond that. I would like to go more for the top tier service. As well as the fact there are no "major" studios out here in MT/WY/ID..not really in UT either but more action in SLC. I think that alone will set me apart quite well. For a global outlook I still think due to how I will work and how it will sound I will slowly draw some attention. While I have the buffer of not needing to eat from this work, I would love for it to get to the point that I could just do that. I don't expect that to happen though for decades if that. either way, all good points and questions and things I've tried to think about as well. Chris Stone told me that when he built Record Plant, he NEVER bought any gear new and leased the latest consoles and tape machines. Nashville is wonderful because I can rent almost any piece of gear. I would only invest in the things I use every day such as first class monitoring. Man I wish I could do that easily. Just not a thing out here really. Pros and Cons to high population areas vs very rural.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Feb 18, 2019 9:49:14 GMT -6
I saw once a kind of economic model that showed studio market per capita. It was something like $0.60 - $1.00 per person per year, if I recall. So maybe that could help as well - whats the total market in your region (obviously doesn't include remote services).
I have no idea if your strategy is sound or not, but it sounds to me like the I/O portion is a critical aspect to this approach.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 18, 2019 9:57:43 GMT -6
In this business, I follow my grandfather's credo:
"A borrower or a lender, never be."
(My GF wasn't Yoda by the way, just sounded like him)
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Feb 18, 2019 10:03:57 GMT -6
In this business, I follow my grandfather's credo: "A borrower or a lender, never be." (My GF wasn't Yoda by the way, just sounded like him) Your grandfather was Polonius??
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 18, 2019 10:31:48 GMT -6
I saw once a kind of economic model that showed studio market per capita. It was something like $0.60 - $1.00 per person per year, if I recall. So maybe that could help as well - whats the total market in your region (obviously doesn't include remote services). I have no idea if your strategy is sound or not, but it sounds to me like the I/O portion is a critical aspect to this approach. IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 18, 2019 10:34:45 GMT -6
In this business, I follow my grandfather's credo: "A borrower or a lender, never be." (My GF wasn't Yoda by the way, just sounded like him) Your grandfather was Polonius?? One would think! However adopting another's saying and making it a personal credo is often a good thing. And good old Billy Shakes had some good ones!
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Feb 18, 2019 11:21:26 GMT -6
I saw once a kind of economic model that showed studio market per capita. It was something like $0.60 - $1.00 per person per year, if I recall. So maybe that could help as well - whats the total market in your region (obviously doesn't include remote services). I have no idea if your strategy is sound or not, but it sounds to me like the I/O portion is a critical aspect to this approach. IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. Why does it have to be PTHD? There are less expensive options for 32 IO.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Feb 18, 2019 11:32:11 GMT -6
I saw once a kind of economic model that showed studio market per capita. It was something like $0.60 - $1.00 per person per year, if I recall. So maybe that could help as well - whats the total market in your region (obviously doesn't include remote services). I have no idea if your strategy is sound or not, but it sounds to me like the I/O portion is a critical aspect to this approach. IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. So putting back on my BD hat, I'd say - if IO is key to your strategy, then you should be able to test it, see if you can justify it. I know this is kind of difficult but this is the kind of implicit thinking we all do every day with business ventures... it's just good to set it down on paper and really challenge the ideas, you know? The hard questions to answer are - - what is the cash flow you expect out of the business? - what is the up-front capital required to do this? - how can you increase the first without increasing the second? Seems like you have a good portion of your strategy laid out. Your value proposition is the most important part, and you've got an idea there. You oughta keep that in mind with your website, 30 second sales pitch, everything. It sounds like its along the lines of an innovative, daw-and-analog-based studio - modern speed, vintage sounds. I think the economic logic should be challenged some, i.e., what's really to justify your value retention - how do you obtain your returns in this market? I think being clever about your setup can dovetail here: drBill talks over and over about how his setup is geared toward speed without sacrificing quality. That seems to be a key part of his strategy. It can also tie into your arenas (does your analog setup or gear selection pre-select or give you an advantage with certain clientele?) and is certainly a differentiator (cool analog gear selection). But it is a differentiator that is not hard to duplicate (only expensive) and maybe not one that has a good economic logic behind it (will clients actually pay a premium to use your cool gear?). The portions to scratch harder on are arenas, sequencing, and vehicles. Who are your target clients, how are you going to get into that market, and how fast? Those will tell you whether it makes sense to finance a gear to jump into the value proposition above versus a soft-start that represents less risk, but also a less-efficient, less-sexy setup. I guess the line you're looking for is minimum viability - how much of your target value proposition is needed for it actually to be an effective sales tool / differentiator / efficiency gainer etc. Last random musing.. don't forget liquidity has some value. It would suck to be IO rich and _____ poor (insert whatever unforeseen need that may arise).
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 18, 2019 11:44:06 GMT -6
I saw once a kind of economic model that showed studio market per capita. It was something like $0.60 - $1.00 per person per year, if I recall. So maybe that could help as well - whats the total market in your region (obviously doesn't include remote services). I have no idea if your strategy is sound or not, but it sounds to me like the I/O portion is a critical aspect to this approach. IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. Starter plan. 1. Get an HDX card if you don't already. 2. Buy two 192's loaded to give you 24 i/o - 16/8 - 8/16. This will get you up and going for less than $3k I'd guess. 3. Start adding HD16's as you can. Eventually selling or relegating the 192's to less important duties. 4. Grow as money and business opportunities allow. No one will know or care what converters you are using except you.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 18, 2019 12:01:44 GMT -6
HD 192s are really good sounding converters provided they are only used to drive balanced loads. They were only discontinued because some of the parts are no longer available. I think they are very undervalued. My next move would be to save up for a DAD/Avid MTRX while adding 192s as needed.
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Feb 18, 2019 12:15:27 GMT -6
IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. Starter plan. 1. Get an HDX card if you don't already. 2. Buy two 192's loaded to give you 24 i/o - 16/8 - 8/16. This will get you up and going for less than $3k I'd guess. 3. Start adding HD16's as you can. Eventually selling or relegating the 192's to less important duties. 4. Grow as money and business opportunities allow. No one will know or care what converters you are using except you. I'm with Bill. If you already own thousands of dollars worth of outboard gear what worth does it have without the IO to use it? Come up with a gradual plan of implementation that won't break the bank or leave you in a dire economic situation if it's earning power doesn't pan out. It's not ethically wrong or foolish to borrow money if done responsibly. If you have a history of credit card debt or bad financial decisions that would be a different matter. The absolute worse case scenario is that you sell off some gear to pay off the debt.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 18, 2019 14:23:52 GMT -6
IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. Starter plan. 1. Get an HDX card if you don't already. 2. Buy two 192's loaded to give you 24 i/o - 16/8 - 8/16. This will get you up and going for less than $3k I'd guess. 3. Start adding HD16's as you can. Eventually selling or relegating the 192's to less important duties. 4. Grow as money and business opportunities allow. No one will know or care what converters you are using except you. I like this plan. I don't have an HDX card. Was thinking I could do fine with a HD Native card instead though. Any reason you'd not go Native other than limit to 64 IO? 192s are quite cheap. Im not super worried about the whole converter date. So much good stuff has been made on some many converters, that wasn't what made it great. HDX cards come up used occasionally, but not often. IO is important for how I want to work. And right now is the biggest hurdle other than monitors for me from a cost perspective. Thus the prompt for this thread. I think I'll likely just keep saving. Or piece it together slowly. Why does it have to be PTHD? There are less expensive options for 32 IO. I know PT very well. I also don't think a lot of DAWs can do more than 32 IO with as low of latency without spending a lot more money. HD 192s are really good sounding converters provided they are only used to drive balanced loads. They were only discontinued because some of the parts are no longer available. I think they are very undervalued. My next move would be to save up for a DAD/Avid MTRX while adding 192s as needed. I have the AX32 at work(original before avid called it the MTRX) it is very nice! Expensive though. Balanced loads only eh? good to know. Starter plan. 1. Get an HDX card if you don't already. 2. Buy two 192's loaded to give you 24 i/o - 16/8 - 8/16. This will get you up and going for less than $3k I'd guess. 3. Start adding HD16's as you can. Eventually selling or relegating the 192's to less important duties. 4. Grow as money and business opportunities allow. No one will know or care what converters you are using except you. I'm with Bill. If you already own thousands of dollars worth of outboard gear what worth does it have without the IO to use it? Come up with a gradual plan of implementation that won't break the bank or leave you in a dire economic situation if it's earning power doesn't pan out. It's not ethically wrong or foolish to borrow money if done responsibly. If you have a history of credit card debt or bad financial decisions that would be a different matter. The absolute worse case scenario is that you sell off some gear to pay off the debt. I have good credit and almost no deb history. I only got a CC last summer. No debt really honestly. And that's my problem now really. I have gear, but can't use it really without the IO. But 3k even can be tricky to front without digging into my savings. Which I could do but am not certain im 100% comfortable with that right now. Its not that I couldn't afford it, it's should I really. Be nice to just even finance a small part of it potentially. Hell even doing 2-3 payments would be nice for me. All Id need.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 18, 2019 14:27:46 GMT -6
Re: HDX - I don't know. I hear all kinds of people complaining about delay compensation. All I do is turn my system on and it's perfect. That alone is a good enough reason for me. The extra i/o and DSP are another. Re: Used HDX, 192's, HD interfaces..... I know a guy....
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 18, 2019 14:34:39 GMT -6
Re: HDX - I don't know. I hear all kinds of people complaining about delay compensation. All I do is turn my system on and it's perfect. That alone is a good enough reason for me. The extra i/o and DSP are another. Re: Used HDX, 192's, HD interfaces..... I know a guy.... Yeah I use HDX now and love it. No complaints really. Always curious if HD Native is worth it over HDX these days. Considering what I want to do, I have a feeling the additional IO will be nice. I will give you a PM!
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Feb 18, 2019 16:16:17 GMT -6
Re: HDX - I don't know. I hear all kinds of people complaining about delay compensation. All I do is turn my system on and it's perfect. That alone is a good enough reason for me. The extra i/o and DSP are another. Re: Used HDX, 192's, HD interfaces..... I know a guy.... Yeah I use HDX now and love it. No complaints really. Always curious if HD Native is worth it over HDX these days. Considering what I want to do, I have a feeling the additional IO will be nice. I will give you a PM! I honestly would rather track on on Accell system than an up to date HD Native rig. A friend has a 1608 and Native, the console is cool but I honestly think he still needs HDX so people will have more flexibility at his new spot. Also, I agree with Bob O. 192s are a steal. I suspect you could do 32io for significantly less than 2K. I’m seeing 8x8s for like $400. I’m still on HD2 fwiw, suits me fine.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Feb 18, 2019 18:51:06 GMT -6
Yeah I use HDX now and love it. No complaints really. Always curious if HD Native is worth it over HDX these days. Considering what I want to do, I have a feeling the additional IO will be nice. I will give you a PM! I honestly would rather track on on Accell system than an up to date HD Native rig. A friend has a 1608 and Native, the console is cool but I honestly think he still needs HDX so people will have more flexibility at his new spot. Also, I agree with Bob O. 192s are a steal. I suspect you could do 32io for significantly less than 2K. I’m seeing 8x8s for like $400. I’m still on HD2 fwiw, suits me fine. Been shopping for some 192s. Going to grab a couple! Very cheap right now. Think I'll grab 2 to get 24 ch or so for now and later get a HD IO and begood for a while! Great advice. Just wait a bit for a hdx card and updated pt license.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Mar 14, 2019 17:38:09 GMT -6
Just wanted to update this!
I just today bough 2 Digi 192s.
A 16x8x8 and a 8x16x8. So I should have 24ch IO all analog which is a good start for me for now. Got them for 450 and 385 respectively. The analog inputs still fetch more money.
Need an HDX card next but stoke to have some stuff on the way! I have about 18ch of gear right now plus a summing mixing I could start using again as well. So will keep looking for deals. Probably get a couple just 8x8x8s later as they are cheap and conslidate them.
And probably get a full 16x16 HD IO later too.
|
|
|
Post by aremos on Mar 14, 2019 20:06:18 GMT -6
Re: HDX - I don't know. I hear all kinds of people complaining about delay compensation. All I do is turn my system on and it's perfect. That alone is a good enough reason for me. The extra i/o and DSP are another. Re: Used HDX, 192's, HD interfaces..... I know a guy.... Bill, still using 192's (TDM) here. Maybe you've commented on this already but compared to the next generation "I/O's"" how would you describe it? To use both 10HD & Ultimate Native I'd have to get the I/O or Matrix, correct?
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Mar 14, 2019 20:42:34 GMT -6
Hi Aremos - I don't know about the Native stuff and what you need to make that changeover. I've been DSP based PT since the dinosaurs. I can comment on the 192 vs. HD I/O's though. There is not a earth shattering night and day difference, but the HD interfaces are definitely a step up IMO. They are less congested, less clouded, more open up top, and perhaps a little more extended on the bottom - although maybe that's the cloudy stuff speaking. Maybe they are just a bit more solid on the bottom. Words.... Hope that helps.
|
|