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Post by drsax on Feb 12, 2019 14:01:50 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 15:01:34 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 12, 2019 15:04:13 GMT -6
From Will Shanks from UA:
Way to kick it off! The V76 is another classic, and it deserved to be heard and made available in my opinion. Along with many more of the wonderful German IRT designs, they are not the easiest thing to get a hold of, and even then, knowing a unit you buy is up to original specs, or even knowing who to trust these units to for service repair is a challenge. Most of our customers will never go down this road, so I felt it a historical responsibility to bring it out, and to do it right with a proper end to end circuit emulation. The first challenge was ensuring our unit was indeed original spec and in tip top working order as close as possible to the what it would have sounded like new, so the unit was thoroughly gone through. Luckily, I was able to buy a unit locally from a trusted friend at Wide Hive Studio in Berkeley which meant it was already in great shape to begin with. It is an early serial number unit #302. In addition, 25th Street recording in Oakland had units in great repair to lend us, and I got another four units from Jerry Harrison who also lives around the bay. This was really nice to have so many units at the shop to really ensure what the expectations are of these units, and to understand the unit to unit variation and know your golden unit is squarely in the mix. In general, if the V76 is unmodded and good repair, the units are pretty consistent even with a wide range of serial numbers.
On the emulation side, the pentode amplifiers and surrounding circuits were new and unique challenge, and was time consuming. Fun stuff not in the marketing copy: An interesting thing about the V76 is that the frequency response changes a bit from gain setting to gain setting, and two of the gain settings have a different impedance setting than the rest of the range, by design. Odd, but it is there in the HW, and is faithfully replicated when using the Unison version of the plugin. I'll let you decide where it really shines, but it is incredible that a design that goes this far back has 76dB of clean gain, and a very low noise floor. One trick I love is the "Revolution" sound, which is very overdriven DI electric guitar. On the record the signal chain was going through units, so try that out for fun.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 15:07:34 GMT -6
About to try it. I’ve only used the real one a few times. Very detailed and on the brighter side but not harsh.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Feb 12, 2019 15:35:47 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 16:59:38 GMT -6
It sounds like the V76's I've used. Really detailed and not an overly bloated bottom. Interesting there's a big bottom boost when you crank the input over 50...
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Post by Drew @ UA on Feb 12, 2019 17:44:18 GMT -6
Will specifically remarked that the frequency response changed at various gain settings. Interesting quirk indeed!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 17:45:30 GMT -6
Gotta say, this sounds very similar to the VP28 Platinums just singing and listening back...one thing I run into with the Unison pres is headroom (dynamic range before distorting)...Seems like all of my outboard pres have more dynamic headroom...Just singing at -24 I can still drive the input a little, but less gain and it's a super quiet recording. Obviously, you can pull up the output or run a compressor after, but it kind've sucks the output isn't stepped. But - I'm really impressed with this and the Helios. I could literally do everything I need to do with these new Apollos.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 17:46:23 GMT -6
Will specifically remarked that the frequency response changed at various gain settings. Interesting quirk indeed! Yeah - there's like a huge boost around 50Hz.
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Post by wiz on Feb 12, 2019 18:19:49 GMT -6
Gotta say, this sounds very similar to the VP28 Platinums just singing and listening back...one thing I run into with the Unison pres is headroom (dynamic range before distorting)...Seems like all of my outboard pres have more dynamic headroom...Just singing at -24 I can still drive the input a little, but less gain and it's a super quiet recording. Obviously, you can pull up the output or run a compressor after, but it kind've sucks the output isn't stepped. But - I'm really impressed with this and the Helios. I could literally do everything I need to do with these new Apollos. Thats really interesting to hear... cheers Wiz
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Post by drsax on Feb 12, 2019 20:26:45 GMT -6
It sounds like the V76's I've used. Really detailed and not an overly bloated bottom. Interesting there's a big bottom boost when you crank the input over 50... That’s encouraging to hear... when I get some free time over the next few days, I wanna try this one out. Have you tried putting it on previously recorded tracks yet?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 12, 2019 21:09:05 GMT -6
It sounds like the V76's I've used. Really detailed and not an overly bloated bottom. Interesting there's a big bottom boost when you crank the input over 50... That’s encouraging to hear... when I get some free time over the next few days, I wanna try this one out. Have you tried putting it on previously recorded tracks yet? No I haven't...
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 12, 2019 21:36:48 GMT -6
Gotta say, this sounds very similar to the VP28 Platinums just singing and listening back...one thing I run into with the Unison pres is headroom (dynamic range before distorting)...Seems like all of my outboard pres have more dynamic headroom...Just singing at -24 I can still drive the input a little, but less gain and it's a super quiet recording. Obviously, you can pull up the output or run a compressor after, but it kind've sucks the output isn't stepped. But - I'm really impressed with this and the Helios. I could literally do everything I need to do with these new Apollos. I'm pretty sure all of Jeff's gear is topped out at +29dbu before they break up. If the Apollo's hardware pre's are lower than that then that would be the issue I'm betting. For those guys that have the new WT-72 from Locomotive it'd be really interesting to hear some A/B's if anyone with a Unison system has a WT-72. If the plugin gets you 90% there that's saying something. These preamps are IMO the hardest there are to recreate from the original. They are the most special sounding preamps I know of. I'm not sure why other companies haven't took note of the design and started putting plate chokes on their tube pre's. What if LaChapell did another 583 but simply put a plate choke in to give it that really unique glassy/smooth feel. There's probably room in the 1U 500 slot if Cinemag or Sowter did PCB transformers/plate chokes, which they might already I don't know. I know Sowter does the input/output and plate choke for the V72 and they're pure drop in's. 10 years ago you could've got the original V72/76 for half what they sell for now, so it's definitely a hot seller.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 12, 2019 22:42:49 GMT -6
I played around with it for about 15 mins....... then I bought it.
So how does it compare with some other tube style preamps?
I did two quick takes. The first was with my Altec 639A Ribbon mic. The second was with my FleA 49. The signal from each microphone was split to my Tab Funkenwerk V78M, Demeter VTMP, UAD 610B, and finally the UAD V76. The files are raw with no compression, EQ, etc.
I'm curious what everyone thinks. I'll provide a key a little later.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2019 9:47:49 GMT -6
I'm not sure why other companies haven't took note of the design and started putting plate chokes on their tube pre's. What if LaChapell did another 583 but simply put a plate choke in to give it that really unique glassy/smooth feel. Not sure that has anything to do with a plate choke. A plate choke is 'same as' an output transformer with plate current run through it, 'different' in that there's a cap keeping B+ out of the output transformer and that cap can be tuned for low frequency response. The point of both is higher output stage headroom, and a 'better' output transformer won't need a plate choke at all. All the RCA tube stuff is either B+ through the output transformer or a plate choke. I could probably dig out a couple examples that aren't, but not many. Lots of Altec, Langevin, WE, Collins, Gates, Disa, AWA, EMI, etc etc etc all use one of the two methods.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 13, 2019 10:12:24 GMT -6
I'm not sure why other companies haven't took note of the design and started putting plate chokes on their tube pre's. What if LaChapell did another 583 but simply put a plate choke in to give it that really unique glassy/smooth feel. Not sure that has anything to do with a plate choke. A plate choke is 'same as' an output transformer with plate current run through it, 'different' in that there's a cap keeping B+ out of the output transformer and that cap can be tuned for low frequency response. The point of both is higher output stage headroom, and a 'better' output transformer won't need a plate choke at all. All the RCA tube stuff is either B+ through the output transformer or a plate choke. I could probably dig out a couple examples that aren't, but not many. Lots of Altec, Langevin, WE, Collins, Gates, Disa, AWA, EMI, etc etc etc all use one of the two methods. Well Doug, all the preamps you're talking about I LOVE haha. And, all of those preamps are not in production anymore. I just know from what's being produced out there right now, even on the DIY market, designers are not taking this approach. And from what I understood, having a plate choke can open the sonic possibilities of how preamps sound and are what allows preamps like the V72 (the V76m is simply just 2 V72's in serial) to be shaped and also provide such smooth glassy and warm sounds. I'm a bigger fan of the plate choke design, to my ears that design has always sounded the best.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2019 13:58:31 GMT -6
I played around with it for about 15 mins....... then I bought it. So how does it compare with some other tube style preamps? I did two quick takes. The first was with my Altec 639A Ribbon mic. The second was with my FleA 49. The signal from each microphone was split to my Tab Funkenwerk V78M, Demeter VTMP, UAD 610B, and finally the UAD V76. The files are raw with no compression, EQ, etc.
I'm curious what everyone thinks. I'll provide a key a little later. There are 4 files...these are the 4 preamps with the same mic? I'm guessing A is the V76...but dude, they all sound alike to me.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 13, 2019 14:19:46 GMT -6
I played around with it for about 15 mins....... then I bought it. So how does it compare with some other tube style preamps? I did two quick takes. The first was with my Altec 639A Ribbon mic. The second was with my FleA 49. The signal from each microphone was split to my Tab Funkenwerk V78M, Demeter VTMP, UAD 610B, and finally the UAD V76. The files are raw with no compression, EQ, etc.
I'm curious what everyone thinks. I'll provide a key a little later. There are 4 files...these are the 4 preamps with the same mic? I'm guessing A is the V76...but dude, they all sound alike to me. 2 Takes, first is my Altec Ribbon, second is my FleA 49. Both mics had their signal split between 4 different tube preamps; Tab Funkenwerk V78M (V72 style preamp), Demeter VTMP-2B, The UAD V76, and the UAD 610. So, yes the samples feature different preamps, but the differences are really subtle.
A. is a bit more hifi sounding with a touch more high end to it. B. is probably my favorite and has the most vibe. It's weighty, but the high end is still there. C. was a surprise for me. It has never been my favorite preamp, but it's amazing what happens when you finally wrap your head around impedance matching and use the piece properly. The mid range is huge it.
D. I thought D was kind of close the C and has been my go to for warming up FET mics for a while now.
Those who follow my posts might actually be able to guess which is which now, but I was so impressed with the V76 after doing this shoot out that I purchased it. I prefer it to the 610 and I still have my Apollo with Unison preamps, so why not? I felt the same way with their newer Neve preamp vs their 1073. Next to my Dan Alexander 1272 their new Neve preamp was really close. I may as well use the Unison preamps to the best of their abilities.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2019 14:31:10 GMT -6
There are 4 files...these are the 4 preamps with the same mic? I'm guessing A is the V76...but dude, they all sound alike to me. 2 Takes, first is my Altec Ribbon, second is my FleA 49. Both mics had their signal split between 4 different tube preamps; Tab Funkenwerk V78M (V72 style preamp), Demeter VTMP-2B, The UAD V76, and the UAD 610. So, yes the samples feature different preamps, but the differences are really subtle.
I don't really understand this signal path, can you explain? Is that a hardware 610 or an emulation? What's preamplifying the mics on the way to the V76 emulation? How is the split done? How do you factor the lowered input Z of parallel inputs and the inductive interactions of all the paralleled input transformers? Those things tend to make a source sound more the same through each path, because you are hearing the parallel loading of every input.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2019 14:32:19 GMT -6
Which was which?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2019 14:35:58 GMT -6
Ohhhh....I only compared the first like 10 seconds of each. There are two takes in each file. Listening to the second take on each I hear more top end sizzle in A - but it's not bad...just more hifi like you said. I agree I think I like B the best...maybe the 610 is A and V76 is B...
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 13, 2019 14:59:01 GMT -6
2 Takes, first is my Altec Ribbon, second is my FleA 49. Both mics had their signal split between 4 different tube preamps; Tab Funkenwerk V78M (V72 style preamp), Demeter VTMP-2B, The UAD V76, and the UAD 610. So, yes the samples feature different preamps, but the differences are really subtle.
I don't really understand this signal path, can you explain? Is that a hardware 610 or an emulation? What's preamplifying the mics on the way to the V76 emulation? How is the split done? How do you factor the lowered input Z of parallel inputs and the inductive interactions of all the paralleled input transformers? Those things tend to make a source sound more the same through each path, because you are hearing the parallel loading of every input. It's the UAD (Universal Audio Digital) 610B emulation through my unison preamp, just like the V76. I simply split the signal with some xlr Y splitters and putting them into each preamp. I'm sure that's not the perfect way to do, but I've done it a few times in the past and seen other people do it, and I feel you can still hear the subtleties of each preamp. I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but it's the best I can do here. As for parallel loading, I'll take your word for it. It is beyond my technical knowledge, and I would defer to you on it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2019 16:02:00 GMT -6
Close call, B is more forward, C is more natural.. have to listen again and pick one of those two. The others had a few shrill moments.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2019 16:37:49 GMT -6
I don't really understand this signal path, can you explain? Is that a hardware 610 or an emulation? What's preamplifying the mics on the way to the V76 emulation? How is the split done? How do you factor the lowered input Z of parallel inputs and the inductive interactions of all the paralleled input transformers? Those things tend to make a source sound more the same through each path, because you are hearing the parallel loading of every input. It's the UAD (Universal Audio Digital) 610B emulation through my unison preamp, just like the V76. I simply split the signal with some xlr Y splitters and putting them into each preamp. I'm sure that's not the perfect way to do, but I've done it a few times in the past and seen other people do it, and I feel you can still hear the subtleties of each preamp. I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but it's the best I can do here. As for parallel loading, I'll take your word for it. It is beyond my technical knowledge, and I would defer to you on it.OK, so that's a 4 way split with XLR splitters, feeding (2) Unison preamps, the V78M, and the Demeter VTMP-2B. Got it. Yeah, you get some idea of the differences, but they are clouding each other. Whatever impedance non-linearities exist in the input transformers, which give a unique sonic signature to a directly connected mic, are all being blended together and averaged out. Additionally, if quoted input Z for each was 2KΩ (surely different, but close enough for ballpark), then it's now 500Ω which lowers headroom on the Flea, and maybe changes response. If the 639 is a 50Ω mic like I think, it's probably in a better place than normal. There's not a great way to do this, purest is 4 separate passes, but then you've got take differences to parse. Anyway, trying to put some perspective to what's going on, and also understand what's up with the emulation thing.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 23:46:23 GMT -6
To me Preamp C sounded the most 'Digital'.....just seemed to have more transients sticking out and less like hardware.
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