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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 12:49:23 GMT -6
You recall all the things I have said about my room gremlins and all the treatment I have put up as my room has bad dimension and modes.
I recently got the small set of emotiva b1's that Jim William's recommends. They have a tweeter like an adam and small 6 inch woofer and are rear ported. I also go the small emotiva power amp.
A local store was selling a Polk Audio 10 inch 100 watt sub woofer so I got one to try. I honestly don't care about the really low bass, just wanted to not have the small bookshelves struggling to produce low notes and hoped they would sound even clearer and more linear and have the low bass better controlled by the controls on the sub woofer.
Anyway it sounds friggin awesome !! I have the sub woofer getting about 120 and below and my b1's are sousing crystal clear and balanced and the low bass is rich yet better defined.
I have my monitors about 2 feet in front of my front wall with treatment and diffusers. I set the sub woofer vertically alined with them and in the centre but below my desk.
So, at this point , I guess you just adjust cross over point and volume till you like the sound ? If all the speakers are vertically aligned, what does the phase switch do ?
I have been struggling with this room for like 5 years and had a variety of high end monitors but this is the best it has ever sounded: I can't quite believe it as this is the least expensive monitors I have ever had ?
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 10, 2019 13:11:22 GMT -6
What are you using for a crossover? Are your monitors chained in from your sub as satellites? I ask because a lot of subs have a fixed crossover, usually around 80hz but allow you to set the low pass going to the sub. Make sense?
The phase switch is easy, just flip it and listen. Does one position sound better? That’s the one you use.
Are you familiar with room eq wizard? Taking a few measurements with your sub at different settings and in different positions can make a huge difference. When I set my sub I was able to get rid of a huge null just by turning my sub 90 degrees. (I think it was caused by boundary reflections).
That being said I wouldn’t obsess over measurements, at the end of it you have to play with different settings a just figure out what sounds best to you. As a good starting point I’d start with sub relatively quiet and slowly turn it up in volume till you find a good sweet spot (but err on the side of being quieter).
That’s my 2 cents. Plenty of people here can offer better advice I’m sure. Congrats on the new system!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 10, 2019 13:15:37 GMT -6
Vertical alignment means nothing, alignment is based on voice coils being aligned.
Use ears but a It’s always nice to have a anyliser to verify.
It’s all about moving things around and playing with settings till your happy, but keep notes, everything is a compromise and what blows you away today might not wear well over time.
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Post by winetree on Feb 10, 2019 13:44:28 GMT -6
This is a little bit of work but helps me get a basic alignment of the sub and speakers.
I remove the speakers from the cabinets and measure how deep the speaker magnets sit in the cabinet and then mark a white line on top of the cabinet.
I do that for both the sub and the speakers. Then when setting up everything, I align the white lines. This works for a good starting or final point of refference.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 14:39:41 GMT -6
Great: the sub has a rotary to control the cross over freq, seperate volume and a phase switch.
Main signal goes to Emotiva amp to power the b1’s and amp has rca outs to sub woofer, so you set the crew cieking the sub is hearing adjust volume to taste?
Yes, I started with volume low and set one mix on repeat and adjusted from there.
I’ll keep tweaking but it definitely is working well so far.
Thx!
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Post by drbill on Feb 10, 2019 15:09:57 GMT -6
So it sounds like you're not crossing over the speakers with the sub - right? I know the "technical correct" and preferred way is to have bass management crossing over your LR and Sub signals - or to have the L/R signals go to the sub, and have the sub itself cross over and separate the LF signal which goes to the sub, and everything above the crossover to the L/R. I've used both methods - until my older monitor controller died. I ended up replacing it with a Grace m905, which is FREAKING AWESOME - except that it doesn't provide true bass management. Don't get me going on that.....  But Hedback told me to just route the full bandwidth sub output of the m905 to the sub (which is powered) and ghost it under the L/R speakers (which were also receiving full bandwidth signals) until I could feel some "extension" towards the extreme LF. Did that and it's been spectacular on the new JBL 708P's. Just a little bit of extension. Mute sub, un-mute sub. Back and forth, back and forth until you hear a LITTLE extension - like your speakers are more full bandwidth. if you go for thump, you're going to have bass shy mixes for sure. Try that. It worked fantastic for me, even though the speakers and subs are "doubling up" a bit due to not having proper bass management. |
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Post by reddirt on Feb 10, 2019 16:56:33 GMT -6
I'm thinking about these things at the moment with little to no experience. Given that a lot of stereo info still resides at 120 and below,have you noticed any stereo compromise and have you tried lower x-over values Kcatt?
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drbill on Feb 10, 2019 17:29:05 GMT -6
80 Hz here
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 18:42:09 GMT -6
I can’t be too clinical yet, but just as Dr Bill said , just trying to just have that xtra bass just slightly bloom the bottom of the mix.
I am at about 100 and will experiment. I was more going for the low Mids in the bookshelves sounding as clear as possible but still linear not scooped.
If you are thinking about it, I’d say do it. My $500 usd system sounds better than my $3-4000 system when I had my amphions.
Jim, of course, mods the b1 crossovers and recommended a special place for high grade parts but they are out of stock, but I’ll do that when they ship.
Thx!
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 10, 2019 19:57:24 GMT -6
It sounds like from your setup that you aren’t highpassing your mains, that you’re sending them full range signal and just adding bass through the sub, with the on board crossover set around 100hz.
If it sounds good then you’re done. But in that configuration you’re not relieving any strain on your mains when it comes to reproducing low frequencies. I could however be wrong, I’m not familiar with your poweramp. Some do have built in crossovers. Just food for thought.
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Post by reddirt on Feb 10, 2019 20:09:45 GMT -6
I too sold my Amphions (1 15) and have a pair of Eve audio 305 s arriving on Wed. They are 2.5 s much like Shape twins but horizontal oriented. Sounded excellent in the shop but what they are like to mix on is anybody's guess. The bottom end was very even which is a great start but as is to be expected the extension was not as resolved as their bigger brother (sister?)
the 307 which were impressive if not too big.
The philosophy of winding in just a little sub, as you are makes sense to me.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 20:19:34 GMT -6
The way the sub woofer manual shows set up the only way I can do it is to send the daw signal to my Emotiva amp and then loop that to the sub.
So, the sub woofer is only getting the signal below the crossover point but things definitely sound much clearer?
The sub woofer has speaker outs but just spring locks, so I could send the daw signal to the sub, then have open wire leads to rca male to the Emotiva amp and then the b1’s last. I need another set of rca cables to do this so won’t get them till tomorrow.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 10, 2019 21:18:58 GMT -6
Is the sub powered? Or is the power amp powering it?
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Post by svart on Feb 11, 2019 10:54:20 GMT -6
I generally have my sub start around 150hz, and not have my mains highpassed. I tend to mix too much bass into my mixes so I over-emphasize the bass a little bit.
Also, the LPF rolloff allows a gentle transition into the mud region, so I tend to hear more mud if there is any, which helps me clean it up.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 11, 2019 10:56:38 GMT -6
sub is powered 10 inch 100 watt. svart interesting technique, sort of contrarianbut logical ! |
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Post by askomiko on Feb 11, 2019 14:30:55 GMT -6
For the phase adjustment: play a sine at 80hz (or whatever is your crossover frequency) and adjust the phase until you find the loudest setting. Use any mic in the listening spot and meter it in your DAW if you want to geek out. This is helpful for those subs that have more settings than 0/180°.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 12, 2019 22:47:21 GMT -6
I dunno....... I just set mine up so they're pretty much under my monitors and roll off everything, I only use them to hear the "fluff" I have two 10" subs so I guess mine is a little different than what you're go going. Basically I think they way I did it was used a signal generator and swept between 20hz-200hz, when it nulled I'd nudge them around a little until it got better, and really small moves made a big difference if I remember correctly. I know when I started trying to use them to hear anything above 110hz is when they gave me a fit. So I just turned them up enough to give me the lower octave the Shape 50's didn't have and left it there. They're really low too.
I'm selling my Focal Shape 50's because today I put an order in for the Focal Shape Twin's, maybe I won't even need the subs anymore, that's what I'm really hoping for.
Best advice I can give is the advice I got from two of my mentors about subs. Just turn them up enough to hear that lower octave "fluff" and remember that the monitors are going to produce the most accurate low's (unless you've got Quested or ATC's) I followed that and my low-end is spot on in the car or anywhere else I listen. Definitely a hard yet vitally important thing to get right in today's music. All it took was a girl telling me once that my mixes were great but didn't have that "shake your ass bass" Maybe I bought them so she'd shake her ass, I dunno, but they've done well.
Jerome
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Post by reddirt on Feb 12, 2019 23:31:49 GMT -6
Interesting to hear you're getting the twins Jerome - I imagine you've heard them ?
I've just done a pilgrimage to listen to speakers and heard the 50s and twins in different shops which makes comparison almost impossible but FWIW I thought the 50s were a " complete ' little speaker albeit a little light as expected where the twins didn't do what I'd hoped for me. Take that impression with the proverbial salt grains but there it is.YMWPV.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 12, 2019 23:53:23 GMT -6
Interesting to hear you're getting the twins Jerome - I imagine you've heard them ? I've just done a pilgrimage to listen to speakers and heard the 50s and twins in different shops which makes comparison almost impossible but FWIW I thought the 50s were a " complete ' little speaker albeit a little light as expected where the twins didn't do what I'd hoped for me. Take that impression with the proverbial salt grains but there it is.YMWPV. Cheers, Ross Thanks man, appreciate that. Good thing is I can send them back and trade them in for the 50's if something like that were to occur. But, I was 100% right when I looked at the line when it first came out, figuring that the 50's would translate better than the 65's, and I was right. Going by the specs and how the Twins are rolled into one box I really believe they'll be the silver bullet for me in what I do. I get the low-end and I get the transient detail of the 5" driver. That was always my thing, just because the 65's would go a few db below the 50's had to mean a trade off somewhere. I think they use almost the exact same power wattage as well, so I knew the 50's would let me know what my snare and snap of the kick was doing. The Twins look to do that as well as dive deeper while also having an emphasis on the low-mid range, that I like, that's where so many monitors leave you hanging and why so many people feel no matter how expensive the speaker, the meat of their mixes doesn't translate, or the transients don't translate. We shall see though, I can always go back if I need to. BTW, that's a good deal I've got on those, I mean they're brand new speakers, albeit broken in, but I've always powered them down at the end of the day, or even during breaks, and yes, I dusted those damn speakers like 3 times a week. Those are my money makers. Twins, well they'll get the same love. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 13, 2019 1:37:53 GMT -6
Interesting to hear you're getting the twins Jerome - I imagine you've heard them ? I've just done a pilgrimage to listen to speakers and heard the 50s and twins in different shops which makes comparison almost impossible but FWIW I thought the 50s were a " complete ' little speaker albeit a little light as expected where the twins didn't do what I'd hoped for me. Take that impression with the proverbial salt grains but there it is.YMWPV. Cheers, Ross Thanks man, appreciate that. Good thing is I can send them back and trade them in for the 50's if something like that were to occur. But, I was 100% right when I looked at the line when it first came out, figuring that the 50's would translate better than the 65's, and I was right. Going by the specs and how the Twins are rolled into one box I really believe they'll be the silver bullet for me in what I do. I get the low-end and I get the transient detail of the 5" driver. That was always my thing, just because the 65's would go a few db below the 50's had to mean a trade off somewhere. I think they use almost the exact same power wattage as well, so I knew the 50's would let me know what my snare and snap of the kick was doing. The Twins look to do that as well as dive deeper while also having an emphasis on the low-mid range, that I like, that's where so many monitors leave you hanging and why so many people feel no matter how expensive the speaker, the meat of their mixes doesn't translate, or the transients don't translate. We shall see though, I can always go back if I need to. BTW, that's a good deal I've got on those, I mean they're brand new speakers, albeit broken in, but I've always powered them down at the end of the day, or even during breaks, and yes, I dusted those damn speakers like 3 times a week. Those are my money makers. Twins, well they'll get the same love. Interested in what your analogy is on the twin 50's, something I've been looking at since they came out...I am looking to break the bank this year on monitors. Looking at the new Focal Trio's Be11's, or a pair of Barefoot's. Not sure yet because I have to get my room adjusted first, then I will demo...Can't wait to hear a real monitors in my room! |
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But Hedback told me to just route the full bandwidth sub output of the m905 to the sub (which is powered) and ghost it under the L/R speakers (which were also receiving full bandwidth signals) until I could feel some "extension" towards the extreme LF. Did that and it's been spectacular on the new JBL 708P's. 
