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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Feb 6, 2019 14:28:14 GMT -6
Hi guys! Hope this isn’t a repeat! I searched for it thinking it might have been covered already.
I mix ITB and was looking for a way to get some extra tone and glue into my mixes. (Fear not jsteiger, there’s gonna be a SumBus16 with my name on it!!) In the meantime, I wound up with a Dramastic Obsidian on the 2-bus in preparation for the inevitable mixer.
I’ve been messing with a few schools of thought in my experimentation and I’m finding advantages/disadvantages in each.
When I throw the comp on at the end, I definitely notice the added punch and glue, but I feel as if the relationships I worked on for hours on slightly shift. Not much, but just enough to justify “the other” approach. (That said, it’s not much different than when I receive masters...)
When mixing THROUGH it, these relationships don’t get skewed, but I find that there’s a learning curve to this approach. It can be hard for me to set a threshold so early on because I notice my mixes get louder over time. Sometimes when I’ve gained too much level, things get messy and I get frustrated before realizing the issue. I start rebalancing things, realize my issue, and then wish I could rewind 15 minutes of nudges to push up the threshold 1.5 dB. Not to mention... you should see the bassist’s face when he nudges his track and vocal comes down!!!
Any tips? Have you guys had similar experiences? I haven’t slammed it in parallel yet... Maybe I’ll give it a go later on?
Thanks all!
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 6, 2019 15:02:38 GMT -6
Imho you should always mix into it. Get a good fader balance of everything first, then set the compressor. Then Check it periodically during the mix. It may take a little while to figure out the proper gain staging but that’s just part of the process. I personally think mix bus compression is a great tool.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 6, 2019 15:06:03 GMT -6
Also, play with the side chain so that the low end doesn’t trigger the compression as severely if that’s giving you a problem
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2019 15:22:19 GMT -6
I always mix into one. It's just part of my tone at this point. Always around the same settings, just enough to get a little more punch out of the mix. If I need more punch, I hit it harder rather than turning down the threshold, or mix more or less of what I want to punch more..
I find that if your compressor is working hard on certain hits or is cutting certain frequencies, your mix is probably unbalanced frequency-wise before the compressor even does anything. it's just showing you issues that might have been there before but you didn't notice. The better I've gotten at balancing a mix, the less the compressor needle bobs around unless I'm asking for it.
That said, I don't think I'm getting more than 3-4dB of GR at any point as I'm not trying to use it to level off things, I'm adding it to give me more attack. I conjoin this with transient shaving on the A/D for level increase.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2019 15:22:47 GMT -6
Ya don’t stick it on at end put it on the 2 buss to start.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 6, 2019 15:39:59 GMT -6
Is the compressor located somewhere you can key a constant eye on it? Make sure things don’t go beyond a dB or two? Something as dumb as that might be worth thinking about.
I also always hear mixing into it is the way to. Can’t say I’m a pro as I also incorporated a bus compressor recently in my setup.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2019 15:48:02 GMT -6
Yes but visual is just an indicator as svart said above I listen for the extra texture/punch and try to be very aware when transients are getting too smoothed out but that is song dependent too.
I hsve my Audioscape ssl on my 2 buss always and my Electra eq.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Feb 6, 2019 15:53:22 GMT -6
Thank you for all of the responses! I hope they keep coming!
Since the (so far) short list of consensus is “learn to mix through it,” could I ask how you think about setting the attack time so early? I work with a lot of hip hop, so punch is important. I’m finding that I can either start at 10ms or 30ms and immediately feel the punch come alive, but I also wonder if more experienced guys might have a reason to start around 3 and build more transient into the actual mix.
Seems like a faster attack would result in a fatter mix, but you’d be creating a situation that you need to fight through instead of letting the compressoion guide you, right?
I know, experience is everything and “use your ears.” I’m just seeking food for thought because mix compression doesn’t seem like something to “toy” with
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 6, 2019 15:57:39 GMT -6
To the OP, keep in mind a bus compressor can add “glue”, it can level this out and bring up rms volume, and/or it can add punch and weight. All are worthy goals, but helps to have a vision or at least know what your after, it’ll effect how you set your compressor.
As for gain reduction, when I started using a bus comp I was usually getting 5-7db of gr, which is considered high by many people. As I’ve gotten better at mixing my gr levels are more like 2-4db now. Overall though, my advise is to pay more attention to how it sounds as opposed to how the meters look, partly because the meters often lie.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 6, 2019 15:57:47 GMT -6
I’d get a rough faders up mix and set the comp from there. Double check with just kick and bass. I have one general setting I use and rarely move it too far from there.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 6, 2019 16:02:58 GMT -6
Thank you for all of the responses! I hope they keep coming! Since the (so far) short list of consensus is “learn to mix through it,” could I ask how you think about setting the attack time so early? I work with a lot of hip hop, so punch is important. I’m finding that I can either start at 10ms or 30ms and immediately feel the punch come alive, but I also wonder if more experienced guys might have a reason to start around 3 and build more transient into the actual mix. Seems like a faster attack would result in a fatter mix, but you’d be creating a situation that you need to fight through instead of letting the compressoion guide you, right? I know, experience is everything and “use your ears.” I’m just seeking food for thought because mix compression doesn’t seem like something to “toy” with Hip hop often uses a lot of samples that are already very consistent. You rarely have wild, peaks and transients that slip by like you might with a rock mix so I’d say start with a medium to slow attack. (Of coarse those words are all relative). If you’re hearing good things happening at 10-30 ms than I’d say use that as a starting! Also, soft knee vs hard knee compression can really change the behavior and transient response so keep that in mind. The attack time you use on a soft knee comp might not work for a hard knee comp (all other things being equal).
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 6, 2019 17:17:52 GMT -6
Mix into it.
For hiphop/percussion heavy stuff(beat driven) You'll want your attack time slower. 30ms. Time the recovery to the tempo of the song, which depending on the model of buss compressor you have is easy or hard or impossible.
you'll definitely want to use a HPF on the side chain as there is so much LF content in those genres.
Remember, this is about adding the "glue" and tight feeling. NOT holding back your levels. Its a compressor not a limiter. Let you stuff breath a bit. Handle your levels in the mix.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 6, 2019 17:26:12 GMT -6
+12 or so by now.
I always mix into my buss compression. Usually 30ms or 10ms attach. 4:1. Pulling down 3-4 dB generally.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 6, 2019 17:48:01 GMT -6
For hiphop you might even want to bypass the bus compressor completely for certain tracks. Say for example 808 bass. That ensures things don’t get messed up in the low end and the original producer is happy. Print back to your final output track and apply the limiting there.
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2019 18:21:34 GMT -6
Is the compressor located somewhere you can key a constant eye on it? Make sure things don’t go beyond a dB or two? Something as dumb as that might be worth thinking about. I also always hear mixing into it is the way to. Can’t say I’m a pro as I also incorporated a bus compressor recently in my setup. Mine is in a rack about 4 feet away. The meter is slightly rounded and I sit at an angle, so if I can see the needle, I know it's enough! I guess that equates to around 4db. I'd also say that a dB or two isn't enough to really make a noticable difference to me. Around 4 is good, above 6 is a bit too pumpy. I do notice using less compression elsewhere when I have the 2bus compressor in a good spot.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 6, 2019 18:41:36 GMT -6
I must be the odd ball. 1.5 ratio and barely moving the needle does it for me.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 6, 2019 20:19:27 GMT -6
These days my feelings on bus compression are kind of like that (other) famous Spinal Tap quote:
1:4, slowest attack, quickest release pretty much always. Threshold by ear, probably 2-3 db or so.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 6, 2019 21:13:03 GMT -6
I must be the odd ball. 1.5 ratio and barely moving the needle does it for me. Me too depending on the compressor though. I've got the Dangerous Compressor in here right now and it's compression is pretty similar to a RED 3 in that just kissing it does a lot. I've also got my custom SSL type and I can slam 6-8db off and it just keeps glueing and glueing. I will say that to each is own though. There are somethings I'd really love having the Dangerous for and somethings I'd really love having the SSL for. It's got me seriously considering keeping the Dangerous and patching either or in for different songs. I always mix into any buss comp. I always rough a mix in until it's feeling good and then I will look over at the meter, if it's digging too far in I'll pull the blend knob back to let some of the dry through and it just sounds better and better until I get to a certain point. The really nice thing about having a mix knob and the SSL style together is you can get a very smooth, glued yet vibey mix going. I always feel like my SSL seems to widen and open the mix up. So, the way about mixing into the compressor and how much you should be knocking off is totally dependent on what kind of compressor it is and also if you've got a mix knob. And the auto attack and release is the way I go on any buss comp, they really seem to have that in a sweet spot on the SSL that I love. I'd say to figure out what it is you're wanting, dial a mix in with no compression on any tracks, flip the buss comp on and dial the threshold to a point where it's feeling good. Watch how much your kick and snare are swinging the needle and then just remember that when you're mixing into it, if you're swinging 4-8db and it sounds good, then go with the industry standard saying, "fuck it, music aint perfect."
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2019 8:35:49 GMT -6
I guess to further my thoughts on this, I've found a few truths in mixing that nobody really spells out but seems to be "understood" by the pros..
1. A good mix is the sum of good recording techniques and good arrangement. You can't really have a good mix if everything is clashing, no matter how hard you try. 2. Clarity comes from the absence of clashing or masking in the mix, not from wide bandwidth signals, fast transients, high frequencies or ridiculously spec'd gear. 3. Punch comes from the attack/decay relationship of impulses. Super fast transients don't add punch, but a longer and rounded attack can, and you can exacerbate these with slow attack/fast release compression. 4. I've found that the pros use #1 and #2 by utilizing automation, editing and copious amounts of EQ so that they can use less compression and limiting for signal control. 5. I've also found that the pros use compression more as a trick for expression and expansion (like #3) instead of taming signals. 6. Pros develop a sound by using the same gear at the same settings on every mix. The "gotta zero everything and do every mix fresh" is fallacy because you'll always end up setting things where you like them best anyway. 7. Pros use time-approved gear/plugs more than niche-y and gimmick-y stuff being sold. You'll always see the same gear in every pro list because it works. 8. Pros turn knobs until things sound good. They don't seem to care about whether something has 2dB of boost or 20dB. Be bold and unafraid. It'll either sound good or it won't. You're not going to die if you screw it up. 9. Pros don't care if they're riding red on the meters if it sounds OK. 10. You shouldn't worry about calibrating your signals. There are no true level standards in audio and all the specs are usually marketing lies anyway. Find sweet spots and use them regardless of levels. 11. Analog gear adds distortion, phase/time delay which smears your audio and makes it sound good. It's more forgiving as well. Hit it hard enough to make it sound good. 12. You're going to buy a bunch of plugs that emulate analog gear by adding distortion, phase/time delay anyway, which is kind of funny. 13. Compression IS distortion. 14. A DI for reamping guitars/bass is worth a lot of time and money when the mix isn't working with what you captured. Most of the time the band won't even notice a different tone if the mix is working. 15. Nobody wants to pay for re-tracking anything and will see it as your fault that they need to, even if they insisted on the tone you got from their gear. 16. What was cool and exciting 10+ years ago isn't anymore. You're going to have to accept it and either change with the times, or be left behind and gripe about it on internet forums. 17. The band/artist are the worst people to ask for advice on a mix. 18. Every band member wants more of themselves in the mix and will only consider the mix better if they hear more of themselves. 19. If the band is watching the clock, they're not paying attention to their playing. They'll accept poorer performances from themselves and the resulting mix will suffer and to them it'll be your fault. 20. Rules of thumb and lists you read on audio forums are full of shit, probably including this list, but I'm at least being honest with what has helped me do better. 21. What you think sounds good solo'd probably sounds terrible in the mix. 22. What you think sounds terrible solo'd probably sounds great in the mix. Such is the unfairness of life.
23. Everyone thinks they are better than they are when they start out recording and mixing. Honest critiques can feel like insults but the truth is that most people will say nice things even though they think your work is shit so you'll never really know where you stand on the ladder of mixing. I had a person give me a truly honest critique of my early mixing work and I felt devastated and angry towards them for the longest time. It took me a while to really accept what they said and step back to make a real effort to better myself. I spent a lot of years spinning in circles while rejecting the notion that I wasn't progressing as a recordist and mixer. Don't be like me.
24. Back to compression.. Every classic compression has a thing it does well. Use it for that. Don't buy an 1176 and expect it to sound like an LA2A simply because you can't afford an LA2A. 25. DAWs don't really matter anymore. Pick one and get good at it. I still say Reaper is the best bang for the buck though, but whatever you choose, get good at it and stop hopping around to different DAWs. 26. Don't buy gear because it's cool or someone you like uses it. Always buy gear to fulfill a need that you have. 27. Don't worry about clones of gear being overly authentic. Most vintage gear didn't sound the same from unit to unit and there is a huge difference between some pieces of vintage gear of the same model. 28. Always save up and buy better gear. Cheap gear has no resale value and the ladder of buying and selling cheap gear always loses more money than you think you saved. 29. Better gear stays out of your way when you are learning. Cheap gear is always fighting you. 30. When you're first starting out you won't know that your cheap gear is why you can't tell the difference between 50$ mics and 1500$ mics and you'll end up thinking expensive gear is a sham.. 31. Monitors are the windows to your audio. Buy the best you can afford before anything else. 32. Every mix you do is a resume for more work, but not every mix should be. 33. Have a lot more of these, but out of time for now.
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