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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 7:54:03 GMT -6
With the pre-orders and all, I just assumed they were selling direct.... I could be wrong..... That's correct -- we're currently only selling direct. We were approached by hordes of distributors at NAMM and considering some offers, but no decisions have been made yet. We'll only sell through distributors if we can keep our prices affordable... the theory being that if we go through distributors we could increase our sales enough to negotiate much better volume discounts with our suppliers, and our pricing could stay the same, more or less.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 8:05:08 GMT -6
I just need 2 simple things out of a vocal microphone. (And based on the comments above, I'm going to assume that this exercise is mostly abut vocal microphones.) Well, maybe they aren't so simple, but...... Often, I'll end up recording a lot of people who don't know me well, and are unsure of what they are walking in to. It's a way different gig than recording yourself or the vocalist in your band due to the crazy amounts of psychology involved in getting a singer to feel comfortable, relaxed, and ready to hand over their heart and soul to a stranger. What I need when I put a mic are just 2 (simple?) things.... #1. I need the mic to sound FANTASTIC! Not good or great, but fantastic with magic fairy dust if at all possible. The mic can be decades old or brand shiny new, but it's got to stand OUT when the singer opens up their mouth. Jaws should drop. In the booth and in the phones. Everybody and their brother has "pretty good" clones these days. As is evidenced by the new Warm 251. Under most circumstances, I'd be willing to pay more to hit way above the belt over the hordes of new mics coming out virtually every week. That's where the golden market is IMO. And....in close second to sound (or is it more important than the sound??) #2. I need the microphone to reek money. It's gotta REEK FREAKIN money!!! It can be because it's got rust and patina on it and obviously has a history in video's, photos and past encounters, or it can be because it's glamorous and shiny and they have never seen one. But it's got to shout MONEY!! Bling. Experience. And Aura. That makes a singer step up like nothing else. They know it's a sweet mic, they know the studio is serious about making them the best they can be, and they are there to perform. They know they have to step up. And that one thing might be even more important than how the mic sounds to me, cause PERFORMANCE trumps everything else. I need a mic that BEGS performers to step up and perform - one that taunts them to give 110%. And if I can achieve that hurdle, I can use almost anything. But make no mistake. Everyone has a studio these days, and getting that attention and creating trust is not as easy as one might think, and I actually agree with jcoutu1 about the chinese bodies. That Blackspade mic earlier is a great example. It screams design esthetic, attention to detail, and money. For all I know it may be made in China, but it sure doesn't look like it. It has a classy, unique vibe to it. And I could get singers to step up just by the presentation of the mic. From the logo, to the type of connector, to the power supply, to the head basket, it's gotta be screaming money!!! If the mic has a standard Chinese body with marginal fitment that a dozen other mics use, or if it's a vintage U47 that's stuffed into a MXL body that dozens of companies use, for me and my uses, it's a fail for #2 no matter how great it sounds. If done correctly, if presented in a unique and beautiful way, $2500-3000 can seem like the bargain of the century - all the while making $1500 seem overpriced. great post --- I think this gets to the heart of the matter as far as what a pro user is looking for in a mic. It's all about inspiring the client to not only give the best performance, but also to justify their booking your studio in the first place (and returning for future projects).
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Post by chessparov on Feb 1, 2019 8:05:24 GMT -6
Sidenote... IMHO the Soundelux U99 is already within 5% of a pristine U67. (actually is a better fit on my voice!) Seen them as low as 2K new.
Thankfully, Neumann put an awesome sounding U67 RI up, at NAMM this year. Chris
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Post by lando on Feb 1, 2019 8:05:46 GMT -6
My guess: A 1500$ 67 clone that totally nails the sound and looks *reasonably*like the original would obviously be incredible and would probably sell loads. The same thing but with a very different look is in reality just as awesome but would probably not sell much at all.
That being said: I voted 251.
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Post by lando on Feb 1, 2019 8:14:32 GMT -6
Cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaargh!! This is a Toyota vs. Porsche scenario. Porsche is (arguably) the most profitable car company in the world. Making a huge percentage (I forget how much) on each car they sell. While Toyota may sell 1000X's as many cars, they make a very small markup per car (I think it's around $300 or so) while making up for it in numbers, service and parts. Parts and Service are essentially a non-starter for a mic company, so you must do HUGE numbers if you shoot for the low hanging fruit. Which company is more profitable? Porsche no doubt. Who sells more cars. Toyota. No doubt. Porsche can sell 1000% less cars and still make as much "profit" as toyota. Which company do you want to be? That is what will determine both the quality and quantity of what you build. (PS - I know my numbers are off, but you get the point....) I don’t think that comparison works so well if we are talking about a pretty young company wanting to clone old microphones. They cannot aspire to be Porsche, closest comparison maybe is Neumann? If you have made super original, very cool and luxurious products for 50 or so years and have a super strong brand, then you can choose to be Porsche, or rather you already are Porsche.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 8:19:42 GMT -6
Personally, I'd like more KM84s and based on how well the 47fet turned out, I would trust you over anyone else to put out a KILLER 84!! I am so very much looking forward to receiving my democrat and republican 47FETs!! Thanks for the vote of confidence! I've never heard an SDC that came close to a KM84.... It's one of my favorite mics, and we'll do it justice It's just going to take some time....
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 8:35:02 GMT -6
My problem with mics in general is the repair landscape for microphones is pretty dismal and this is why I will only be buying microphones from USA based makers in the future and why I am excited by Heiserman. Right now for outboard we got Audioscape (c'mon D-Comp!) and Weight Tank for great, affordable gear made by pleasant, knowledgable and accessible people. I have plenty of USA based ribbons - Stager, AEA, Royer (boy, what a time for us ribbon lovers!). I can't justify the $ for a Bock. As far as outside USA makers of affordable mics/gear it's to much of a crap shoot to get it fixed - both in turnaround time, shipping costs and a companies inability to grasp the fundamentals of basic customer service. So, a great sounding LDC at a $2250 price point made by a company that stands behind their products and can also either answer the phone or respond to an email in a professional manner is where my head is at. Good point about customer service and repair... As a company, we're all about accessibility and transparency -- I think people value those qualities now more than ever (I know I do!). On that note, if anyone wants to hit me up directly, my email is matt@heisermanaudio.com.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 1, 2019 9:39:55 GMT -6
I'd say get the best Chinese body you can and then do your thing. I can't imagine every clone manufacturer makes their own bodies, do they? I'm no mic expert, and I realize a capsule and transformer are the main parts of a mic, but I also believe the bodies matter. The thing is, I bet a Chinese made body can be extremely close to the original, and if you handle the rest, well.. I think you'd nail it at a price point. * I can tell you from experience, the fit and finish on the Avantone mics I have are first rate. No, most of them use off the shelf Chinese bodies with little to no modification.... or if they’re doing huge volumes they may be able to make their own bodies in China (minimum order quantities are very high). But we’re trying to be several notches above the average “clone manufacturer.” In my mind, this means doing something more custom, for example offering the swivel mount and the different colors on the H47. We can only do that because we control 100% of the manufacturing. The more modern look is also something we’d like to maintain throughout most of our line. So for now, we’re doing everything we can to avoid using “off the shelf” parts/bodies. We’ll see how it plays out with the next couple mics we’re working on... I think you're up to something here. I'm making my own DIY clones, for my own use, with cheap bodies from Chunger. So I know I will soon have killer U67s for 1100$ each for example. BUT, if you go up between 400$-600$, and the look is great, the power supply as well, and as DrBill pointed out, it attracts clients, then I think the investment is worth it. Because with my own cheap-looking clones, as much as with Stam's or Warm's offering, the look and feeling is not pro. Every time I put up one of my DIY clones, I say to the client : "It does not look nice, but sounds amazing". So I have to kinda apologize, and convince. A FLEA or Wunder is outa reach. So this market can be interesting.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 9:47:29 GMT -6
No, most of them use off the shelf Chinese bodies with little to no modification.... or if they’re doing huge volumes they may be able to make their own bodies in China (minimum order quantities are very high). But we’re trying to be several notches above the average “clone manufacturer.” In my mind, this means doing something more custom, for example offering the swivel mount and the different colors on the H47. We can only do that because we control 100% of the manufacturing. The more modern look is also something we’d like to maintain throughout most of our line. So for now, we’re doing everything we can to avoid using “off the shelf” parts/bodies. We’ll see how it plays out with the next couple mics we’re working on... I think you're up to something here. I'm making my own DIY clones, for my own use, with cheap bodies from Chunger. So I know I will soon have killer U67s for 1100$ each for example. BUT, if you go up between 400$-600$, and the look is great, the power supply as well, and as DrBill pointed out, it attracts clients, then I think the investment is worth it. Because with my own cheap-looking clones, as much as with Stam's or Warm's offering, the look and feeling is not pro. Every time I put up one of my DIY clones, I say to the client : "It does not look nice, but sounds amazing". So I have to kinda apologize, and convince. A FLEA or Wunder is outa reach. So this market can be interesting. Yeah I know the feeling of explaining DIY mics to clients... "Trust me, it sounds awesome!" Some clients buy into it, and some don't.... The truth is that most clients don't know a good sounding mic from a bad/mediocre one, so the appearance can really be the determining factor as to whether they're feeling confident and inspired. I had a 16 year old singer once, and he was way more inspired by my candy apple red MXL mic (with the guts and capsule replaced) than by my 87, C12, and u47 clones with cheap Chinese bodies.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 1, 2019 9:49:55 GMT -6
About the looks: if I'm not mistaken, you will get sued by Neumann if you use the 67/87 headbasket. And I think that's a very important part of their look.
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Post by drbill on Feb 1, 2019 10:27:44 GMT -6
My problem with cheaper mic clones for vocal duties is they initially they sound great, but upon further use in tracking and mixing they end up being annoying. Usually this has to do with either their inability to handle louder passages when tracking that produce unpleasant mid to mid/high frequencies or they just can't take EQ very well.. This has been my experience as well. On soft to mid volume things that are mics that track so close to vintage mics that it's scary. But as the volume increases (esp. with vox) there is a sweet distortion in the vintage mics vs. a grainy edgy distortion in the modern ones. This of course is not across the board, but definitely something I've noticed in the clone world.
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Post by drbill on Feb 1, 2019 10:32:20 GMT -6
With the pre-orders and all, I just assumed they were selling direct.... I could be wrong..... That's correct -- we're currently only selling direct. We were approached by hordes of distributors at NAMM and considering some offers, but no decisions have been made yet. We'll only sell through distributors if we can keep our prices affordable... the theory being that if we go through distributors we could increase our sales enough to negotiate much better volume discounts with our suppliers, and our pricing could stay the same, more or less. Yeah, its an interesting balancing act is't it? Kind of back to the Porsche / Toyota comparison. LOL But whatever you do, you need to keep your bottom line healthy, and your customers happy. I'm confident you can do that!! Cheers, bp
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Post by chessparov on Feb 1, 2019 10:57:34 GMT -6
IMHO here's one idea.
On the microphones priced below the Mason-Dixon line, AKA H47 FET...
Put out your version, of the (lower cost to produce) "workhorses". U87i, 414 "brass ring", and 84.
I think you will sell a lot of those.
I'm not sure if it's better for these "entry" (non-tube mics) to be in a dealer distribution system? Or the higher priced tube microphones? Both?
For example, if the tube microphones sold less units vs. non-tube, they could be within the Dealer distribution model. The non-tube microphones (hopefully!) could be sold directly, at a higher profit margin.
BTW my limited experience is that most musicians/singers don't know the difference between a 251 or a MXL 990! U87, then to a lesser extent 414 have more buzzword power. The 84 they'd generally need to be educated about. Talking home studio level here. Chris
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 11:01:07 GMT -6
IMHO here's one idea. On the microphones priced below the Mason-Dixon line, AKA H47 FET... Put out your version, of the (lower cost to produce) "workhorses". U87i, 414 "brass ring", and 84. I think you will sell a lot of those. I'm not sure if it's better for these "entry" (non-tube mics) to be in a dealer distribution system? Or the higher priced tube microphones? Both? For example, if the tube microphones sold less units vs. non-tube, they could be within the Dealer distribution model. The non-tube microphones (hopefully!) could be sold directly, at a higher profit margin. Chris We've toyed with the idea of selling some mics direct and some through dealers.... the dealers aren't too crazy about that because they think it creates confusion with customers, but it's something we could probably work out. In all likelihood, if we took that route, the more affordable mics would be sold direct and the expensive mics would be sold through dealers.... there's just more potential profit margin to share on the more expensive items.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 11:03:32 GMT -6
About the looks: if I'm not mistaken, you will get sued by Neumann if you use the 67/87 headbasket. And I think that's a very important part of their look. That's definitely something we've thought about, and one reason why our versions might look a bit different than our version of a U47 for example....
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Post by chessparov on Feb 1, 2019 11:09:00 GMT -6
Honestly, I think their reluctance and concern of "confusion" is that... There'd be less profit for them.
Yes!
IMHO keep the "Toyota money" (non-tube) all for Heiserman. Share the "Lexus money", with the dealers. Chris
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Post by jtc111 on Feb 1, 2019 11:32:25 GMT -6
About the looks: if I'm not mistaken, you will get sued by Neumann if you use the 67/87 headbasket. And I think that's a very important part of their look. That's definitely something we've thought about, and one reason why our versions might look a bit different than our version of a U47 for example.... There are mics being made that are aesthetically close enough. The Peluso P-67, for example. It's not the exact shape but it's immediately recognizable as to what it's trying to be. I think any really good 67 clone should have that general shape.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 11:34:37 GMT -6
That's definitely something we've thought about, and one reason why our versions might look a bit different than our version of a U47 for example.... There are mics being made that are aesthetically close enough. The Peluso P-67, for example. It's not the exact shape but it's immediately recognizable as to what it's trying to be. I think any really good 67 clone should have that general shape. Agreed -- and the peluso is a pretty good example.
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Post by Ward on Feb 1, 2019 11:38:30 GMT -6
About the looks: if I'm not mistaken, you will get sued by Neumann if you use the 67/87 headbasket. And I think that's a very important part of their look. There are slight mods that can be made to that head basket design to achieve the same sonic characteristics but not raise the ire of Sennheiser. Pay sonic and visual tribute to Georgs Neumann, respectfully.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 1, 2019 11:54:20 GMT -6
A lot has been said about how mics should “look money”, and I agree to an extent that aesthetics are important. However, in my experience, most clients are easily fooled in this regard. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people oooh and awww over my MXL Revelation mic because it has a gold head basket and shiny red paint job. Never mind that it was $300 used, and that it was sitting next to a $1500 Miktek that clearly had a better quality. I mean most are impressed by anything that has a lot of buttons and blinking lights, even when the words Behringer are written across it.
So I’d say, yes, perception is important, both to clients and AE’s, but there’s definitely a middle ground and I think that’s what you need to find. Btw, love the look of your fet47!
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 1, 2019 11:55:32 GMT -6
A lot of the makers are using the Studio 939 body kit or something similar. store.studio939.com/product/syt-5-microphone-body-kitHowever, if you can pull a black spade and maybe add a coat of pain and make it look polished you’d do a bit better. I liked what you guys did with your 47 FET. You could do something similar to that.
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Post by drbill on Feb 1, 2019 11:59:06 GMT -6
I love me a good coat of pain!!!
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Post by mdmitch2 on Feb 1, 2019 11:59:52 GMT -6
So I’d say, yes, perception is important, both to clients and AE’s, but there’s definitely a middle ground and I think that’s what you need to find. Btw, love the look of your fet47! Thanks! And totally agree with you about aesthetics... most clients don't know a neumann from an MXL and as long as it's pretty or BIG, they're happy. But of course the more savvy clients who've been around nice studios would certainly balk at an MXL no matter how nice it looked. Since we've had a really good response to the H47 aesthetics, we intend to continue in that vein for most of our mics.
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Post by timcampbell on Feb 1, 2019 12:06:22 GMT -6
Well I think that there are a ton of small boutique builders like Misha El with his Goodfly brand who have done this and are under your price point. This is his 251.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 1, 2019 12:13:18 GMT -6
That looks nice timcampbell and immediately looks more polished than a lot of what’s out there.
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