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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 27, 2019 23:48:03 GMT -6
Yes HDX is the cure. Since I've been on hdx I've never had a complaint either.
Still my request went unheard..
What version. And what OS are you running?
You'd be amazed at how many times that's the problem.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 0:03:13 GMT -6
Avid won't care because your using a third party interface. They will blame them. And suggest you use an avid one. I haven't used normal pt in a while..so can't help much here. That said. What version of PT are you running and what OS version? Sorry, just got back home to double check. OS 10.11.6 PT 2018.7.0
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 28, 2019 0:17:04 GMT -6
Avid won't care because your using a third party interface. They will blame them. And suggest you use an avid one. I haven't used normal pt in a while..so can't help much here. That said. What version of PT are you running and what OS version? Sorry, just got back home to double check. OS 10.11.6 PT 2018.7.0 Yeah I'd update your OS. However. Make sure it's the one that is approved for 2018.7 I think that was...10.13.3 maybe. Then look if there is drivers for the appogee for that is too. Do not do the latest osx or drivers as that would be 10.14 which isn't avid approved and who knows for the appogee. 10.13.6 I think is the last version of osx avids approved which is for 2018.10? I think. I'd have to look but it's listed on avids site.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 0:39:26 GMT -6
Sorry, just got back home to double check. OS 10.11.6 PT 2018.7.0 Yeah I'd update your OS. However. Make sure it's the one that is approved for 2018.7 I think that was...10.13.3 maybe. Then look if there is drivers for the appogee for that is too. Do not do the latest osx or drivers as that would be 10.14 which isn't avid approved and who knows for the appogee. 10.13.6 I think is the last version of osx avids approved which is for 2018.10? I think. I'd have to look but it's listed on avids site. Thanks for looking that up. I've wanted to keep my OS low because each successive one seems to be more resource hungry and my machine is long in the tooth. It's been a solid beast of a machine but I push it pretty hard in big sessions. I've tested again after trashing preferences and restarting Mac and Symphony and I'm getting the same behavior. Works at 88.2k, something off at 48k. And it's weird. It doesn't sound overtly phasey, it just sounds rolled off. Like I've got my dry drum bus and then my compression drum bus. When either of them play alone, the highs are normal. When they both play, it really doesn't sound overtly phase incoherent, but it's rolled off up top, which can only think is still phase related. Obviously, when I'm not doing parallel, none of this matters.
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Post by drbill on Jan 28, 2019 1:48:57 GMT -6
Yeah I'd update your OS. However. Make sure it's the one that is approved for 2018.7 I think that was...10.13.3 maybe. Then look if there is drivers for the appogee for that is too. Do not do the latest osx or drivers as that would be 10.14 which isn't avid approved and who knows for the appogee. 10.13.6 I think is the last version of osx avids approved which is for 2018.10? I think. I'd have to look but it's listed on avids site. Thanks for looking that up. I've wanted to keep my OS low because each successive one seems to be more resource hungry and my machine is long in the tooth. It's been a solid beast of a machine but I push it pretty hard in big sessions. I've tested again after trashing preferences and restarting Mac and Symphony and I'm getting the same behavior. Works at 88.2k, something off at 48k. And it's weird. It doesn't sound overtly phasey, it just sounds rolled off. Like I've got my dry drum bus and then my compression drum bus. When either of them play alone, the highs are normal. When they both play, it really doesn't sound overtly phase incoherent, but it's rolled off up top, which can only think is still phase related. Obviously, when I'm not doing parallel, none of this matters. Parallel? That's almost certainly your problem. Intersample latency is the culprit. Even if you're sample accurate with your delay compensation, there are "cracks" in-between the samples (time wise) that you can't compensate for. The lower the clock rate, the bigger the potential for error. The higher the sample rate, the smaller the "crack". Less than one sample can completely jack up your phase coherency and delay comp. That and the fact that you're not using Avid converters is almost certainly your problem.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 2:08:26 GMT -6
Thanks for looking that up. I've wanted to keep my OS low because each successive one seems to be more resource hungry and my machine is long in the tooth. It's been a solid beast of a machine but I push it pretty hard in big sessions. I've tested again after trashing preferences and restarting Mac and Symphony and I'm getting the same behavior. Works at 88.2k, something off at 48k. And it's weird. It doesn't sound overtly phasey, it just sounds rolled off. Like I've got my dry drum bus and then my compression drum bus. When either of them play alone, the highs are normal. When they both play, it really doesn't sound overtly phase incoherent, but it's rolled off up top, which can only think is still phase related. Obviously, when I'm not doing parallel, none of this matters. Parallel? That's almost certainly your problem. Intersample latency is the culprit. Even if you're sample accurate with your delay compensation, there are "cracks" in-between the samples (time wise) that you can't compensate for. The lower the clock rate, the bigger the potential for error. The higher the sample rate, the smaller the "crack". Less than one sample can completely jack up your phase coherency and delay comp. That and the fact that you're not using Avid converters is almost certainly your problem. If that were the case, why would it be completely phase coherent at first and then, after switching sample rates and switching back, exhibit this weird behavior? If it were a systematic error, I'd never have been able to get the good phase coherency in the first place. I mean, obviously parallel is the bigger challenge than just running 'normal' HW inserts, but it only started having this sonic issue after a sample rate toggle. Before that it worked.
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 28, 2019 2:18:28 GMT -6
I had a long troubleshooting issue with a Focusrite Clarett Octopre. The latency would change randomly on reach restart, just as you describe. Focusrite pursued the issue and rewrote the firmware. It now works correctly, but still they told me it could vary up to one sample off.
If you do parallel processing, you need to ping at the start of the session. I use Logic so it takes one second.
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Post by drbill on Jan 28, 2019 2:19:25 GMT -6
Again, I suspect your NON Avid converters on this one. And if the phase coherency was good originally, you were pretty lucky. Higher sample rates help, but there is always inter-sample issues in doing parallel with your DAW. Some circumstances / mixes may be acceptable, and others not. It's all what you are "OK" with. Some people are super sensitive, and others don't even hear it. One sample @ 44.1/48k is enough to sound "not right" for most engineers.
I hope you figure out your issue though. Best of luck!! bp
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 28, 2019 2:24:54 GMT -6
This is why I left Protools LE and went to Studio One 3, now on 4. It works for me, like it does for the Cubase people. I looked into going HDX, and I just couldn’t bring myself to pay that much. I don’t run a commercial facility anymore, so it just wasn’t worth the investment for me. It would be sweet and I was seriously thinking about it, but decided ultimately that I wouldn’t do it.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 2:35:54 GMT -6
Again, I suspect your NON Avid converters on this one. And if the phase coherency was good originally, you were pretty lucky. Higher sample rates help, but there is always inter-sample issues in doing parallel with your DAW. Some circumstances / mixes may be acceptable, and others not. It's all what you are "OK" with. Some people are super sensitive, and others don't even hear it. One sample @ 44.1/48k is enough to sound "not right" for most engineers. I hope you figure out your issue though. Best of luck!! bp You could be right. In this case, 1 sample difference is .02 ms, which is an increment small enough that PT barely lets you adjust it in the compensation. But if it's true that RTL varies day to day (I haven't gotten to those classes yet), and Avid just has an integrated way of keeping track of those shifts within it's own closed system, then maybe I do just have to do frequent measurements to do parallel processing. I'll do another roundtrip as suggested above and see if I'm getting a different figure.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 2:47:46 GMT -6
HEY!
I remeasured the RTL and got a different measurement by 1 sample. Altered the HW insert delay comp by the corresponding couple hundredths of a ms and...VOILA.
Weird LPF sonics gone.
Thanks for the help, ya'll. Now I know that ADDA loop latencies drift. HDX must just be pinging itself all the time and making sure the compensation is right for a given moment.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 28, 2019 6:01:54 GMT -6
HEY!I remeasured the RTL and got a different measurement by 1 sample. Altered the HW insert delay comp by the corresponding couple hundredths of a ms and...VOILA. Weird LPF sonics gone. Thanks for the help, ya'll. Now I know that ADDA loop latencies drift. HDX must just be pinging itself all the time and making sure the compensation is right for a given moment. That’s what I’d always understood about using PT with third party interfaces, that they don’t calculate delay compensation very well. Does this mean you’ll have to do this every time you open a session? Also, I’ve never had good luck with parallel compression using HW. I always thought that I’d need a HW blender to implement parallel compression.
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Post by drbill on Jan 28, 2019 10:04:24 GMT -6
For those of us wanting to do parallel processing outside the DAW.....
Get a mixer with multiple independent bus outputs and blend your dry and wet on the mixer - NOT your DAW.
Intersample latency is a problem that cannot be fixed with current technology to the best of my knowledge. Even if you get your round trip latency "perfect", there is still a significant possibility that you will have a intersample latency delay - a between sample delay - that you cannot adjust for. We live in an analog world, and DAW's dice it out to 1 sample increments at the smallest.
HDX can't help you with that. And neither can pinging and calculating your round trip delay. ALL DAW;s have this problem. That's the reason that people who do a lot of parallel processing prefer analog gear with "mix or blend" features, and why people use mixers to blend wet and dry before coming back into their DAW.
Reaper, Cubase, Studio 1, Logic, whatever - they all have the same limitations when it comes to inter sample latency. You cannot adjust latency smaller than a single sample. So....the higher your sample rate, the smaller the possibility - but the reality is they are still there.
That's the reason Michael Brauer has stayed on a console instead of moving his hardware system over to DAW land. I've heard he has found a solution (but I'm not in the know there), but inter sample latency is generally a physics problem that you cannot get around. You can get LUCKY, and be extremely close to the sample point - especially at higher sample rates, but you can't be perfect. And you especially can't be perfect EVERY time.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2019 11:06:24 GMT -6
I guess for me, as long as it passes my ear test, I’m good. I’m pretty sensitive to phase/latency and I’m getting results that sound natural to me and translate the difference that I prefer when using hardware instead of a plugin.
There are really only a couple of values to check when I hit weirdness again. We’ll see. If it gets to be a pain in the ass I may just do the dummy loop on the dry aux. I just don’t have Symphiny I/O to spare so I’m trying to avoid that.
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Post by seawell on Jan 28, 2019 12:09:23 GMT -6
For those of us wanting to do parallel processing outside the DAW..... Get a mixer with multiple independent bus outputs and blend your dry and wet on the mixer - NOT your DAW. Intersample latency is a problem that cannot be fixed with current technology to the best of my knowledge. Even if you get your round trip latency "perfect", there is still a significant possibility that you will have a intersample latency delay - a between sample delay - that you cannot adjust for. We live in an analog world, and DAW's dice it out to 1 sample increments at the smallest. HDX can't help you with that. And neither can pinging and calculating your round trip delay. ALL DAW;s have this problem. That's the reason that people who do a lot of parallel processing prefer analog gear with "mix or blend" features, and why people use mixers to blend wet and dry before coming back into their DAW. Reaper, Cubase, Studio 1, Logic, whatever - they all have the same limitations when it comes to inter sample latency. You cannot adjust latency smaller than a single sample. So....the higher your sample rate, the smaller the possibility - but the reality is they are still there. That's the reason Michael Brauer has stayed on a console instead of moving his hardware system over to DAW land. I've heard he has found a solution (but I'm not in the know there), but inter sample latency is generally a physics problem that you cannot get around. You can get LUCKY, and be extremely close to the sample point - especially at higher sample rates, but you can't be perfect. And you especially can't be perfect EVERY time. His new studio has an Avid S6 as the center piece so I'm very curious to see how he has worked it out! He's using Antelope Orion 32 HD interfaces too which have been all over the place for me(sometimes bringing back tracks early instead of late haha). https://www.instagram.com/p/BpH4SaLg0RO https://www.instagram.com/p/BpH4IoegUvf
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Post by drbill on Jan 28, 2019 12:15:40 GMT -6
Cool!!!!
maybe he's using some kind of blend hardware box before returning into DAW land?
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Post by seawell on Jan 28, 2019 12:23:23 GMT -6
Cool!!!! maybe he's using some kind of blend hardware box before returning into DAW land? From what I've heard, he has multiple summing mixers(I can see a Neve, Chandler, Tonelux in one of the pics) and most all of his outboard gear still in tact so I think once tracks go out of Pro Tools they stay in the analog domain entirely until coming back in for the two track print. Mix with the Masters has teased pics of his next series and it's with his new set up so hopefully we'll know more soon.
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Post by drbill on Jan 28, 2019 12:29:43 GMT -6
Sweet.
So, if I'm understanding right, essentially, he is still mixing thru a desk, although he's traded out the analog desk for an S6 and summing boxes to blend the "dry" and "wet" signals in the analog world for his parallel bus process. I'm going to assume he uses hardware inserts for much of his gear as well, in which case he doesn't need to worry about delay comp other than enabling it in HDX. Again, just speculating, but that's essentially using summing boxes not in a traditional sense, but in a wet/dry sense. Guessing of course. That's how I'd do it. I'd bet he's printing his stem busses back before they hit the 2 bus stage too.
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 28, 2019 13:16:10 GMT -6
BTW Tk Audio makes quite a few blend boxes. I have their SSL style comp and I love it. Take a look: tkaudio.se/tk-audio/
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 28, 2019 13:25:17 GMT -6
Experimenting with my SSL XL-Desk mixer with a few Dangerous music boxes for the work around here. I’m still not truly satisfied 100% in the box. I wish I could be, it would be much easier and cheaper.
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Post by ragan on Jan 29, 2019 2:37:39 GMT -6
For whatever it's worth, everything is still working nicely today. Parallel drum aux with the hardware insert sounding punchy, coherent and great.
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Post by drbill on Jan 29, 2019 10:44:57 GMT -6
ragan - thinking..... ....... for what it's worth. Back in the day - old school - the voltage coming out of the walls varied quite a bit from day to day, and the "speed" of your multitrack (JH24 for me) could vary depending on the day and even time of day. Just slightly, but there nonetheless. And it is / was enough to cause "sync" problems when linked to other machines over time. The solution was of course to lock the deck to a synchronizer (Timeline lynx in my case) and lock the synchronizer to Video black burst. That gave a solid speed reference 100% of the time. Problem solved. I'm wondering if the power supply on your converter is perhaps out of spec, or has a component getting ready to fail, or is just flat out unstable when fed differing voltage amounts. Which happens virtually every day unless you are very lucky or have addressed this in your studio. It seems that "when right" your inter-sample latency issue is close to spot on. That's quite fortunate as there is no cure for that in the digital world. What is perplexing (especially for you... ) is that it varies on different days. You've got to look at the reasons that can / could happen. IMO, the obvious ones are : - Computer OS and clocking issues - AC voltage feeding your studio - Instability of Interface - which can vary the round trip latency by just BARELY enough to cause problems. All of these are extremely tricky to track down. The computer and AC voltage are moving targets and virtually never the same day to day. Maybe next time it happens you can swap out your interface? A PITA, but a place to start.... The PT software - unless glitched by external sources should be spot on every time. It's not a "variable" that can change. It should work or not work. The external electronics are another matter altogether IME. Good luck!
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Post by ragan on Jan 29, 2019 11:10:39 GMT -6
ragan - thinking..... ....... for what it's worth. Back in the day - old school - the voltage coming out of the walls varied quite a bit from day to day, and the "speed" of your multitrack (JH24 for me) could vary depending on the day and even time of day. Just slightly, but there nonetheless. And it is / was enough to cause "sync" problems when linked to other machines over time. The solution was of course to lock the deck to a synchronizer (Timeline lynx in my case) and lock the synchronizer to Video black burst. That gave a solid speed reference 100% of the time. Problem solved. I'm wondering if the power supply on your converter is perhaps out of spec, or has a component getting ready to fail, or is just flat out unstable when fed differing voltage amounts. Which happens virtually every day unless you are very lucky or have addressed this in your studio. It seems that "when right" your inter-sample latency issue is close to spot on. That's quite fortunate as there is no cure for that in the digital world. What is perplexing (especially for you... ) is that it varies on different days. You've got to look at the reasons that can / could happen. IMO, the obvious ones are : - Computer OS and clocking issues - AC voltage feeding your studio - Instability of Interface - which can vary the round trip latency by just BARELY enough to cause problems. All of these are extremely tricky to track down. The computer and AC voltage are moving targets and virtually never the same day to day. Maybe next time it happens you can swap out your interface? A PITA, but a place to start.... The PT software - unless glitched by external sources should be spot on every time. It's not a "variable" that can change. It should work or not work. The external electronics are another matter altogether IME. Good luck! Interesting ideas. It's another "I'm not far enough in school yet" to know, for me. svart Got any thoughts?
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Post by drbill on Jan 29, 2019 11:16:58 GMT -6
Another thought.... Over the years Digi / Avid have had varying degrees of "cooperation" with 3rd party manufacturers. Depending on when your interface was built, your hardware / drivers may have been built / implemented at at time when they were in Avid's good graces....or NOT.
If you fall in the "not" category, your'e essentially screwed, and may experience anomalies throughout the life of that interface in your system. Future firmware / driver situation may (or may not) solve the issues.
Aside from the sonics (which I love), that's another reason I bought the Avid converters. They don't have to jerry rig a system to work, and are not at war with themselves.
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Post by ragan on Jan 29, 2019 11:36:07 GMT -6
Another thought.... Over the years Digi / Avid have had varying degrees of "cooperation" with 3rd party manufacturers. Depending on when your interface was built, your hardware / drivers may have been built / implemented at at time when they were in Avid's good graces....or NOT. If you fall in the "not" category, your'e essentially screwed, and may experience anomalies throughout the life of that interface in your system. Future firmware / driver situation may (or may not) solve the issues. Aside from the sonics (which I love), that's another reason I bought the Avid converters. They don't have to jerry rig a system to work, and are not at war with themselves. We’ve I’m guessing had different experiences with interfaces. I’ve been running various non-Digi/Avid units for years with no “war”. You might be right about the underlying narrative but there’s been no hassle for me at all. Sound goes in, sound comes out and I do what I want to it in PT.
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